Advantage To Reduce An "Activation Roll"

[Lee]

Hello everyone,

 

I'm looking for some opinions about how to build a Power or Advantage that allows a character to reduce the "activation roll" (Requires A Roll) of another character's power. I'd also like a Limitation that can be applied to the affected power to indicate that it is affected by the "reducing" Advantage/Power and is thus, less effective. Here are some specifics:

 

I have a power that is Damage Reduction at 100% (from the APG) but Requires A Roll (the activation roll). This roll will never be better than 13-. The roll is required every time the Damage Reduction power reduces damage.

 

First of all, I want an Advantage (or power) that will allow another character to reduce (make worse) the activation roll of this Damage Reduction power, even to the point of making it impossible to activate.

 

Secondly, I want a Limitation that can be applied to the Damage Reduction power that, because it is vulnerable to the above Advantage/Power,'it's less effective than the base power and thus worth fewer points.

 

I don't think Drain is appropriate as it doesn't really apply to rolls. I think the same thing of Dispel. I also couldn't find any Skill or Talent that seemed appropriate. None of the Advantages that I'm familiar with seemed to do what I want, either.

 

So, how would you build this combination of Advantage for the attacking power and Limitation for the Damage Reduction?

 

Thanks,

Lee

[Armitage]

The Advanced Player's Guide has an optional rule for Change Environment to create a Limitation as a 5 point effect per -1/4 of Limitation.  I don't see why it couldn't increase an existing Limitation the same way.  Every 5 points reduces the Activation Roll by the amount of a 1/4 increase in the Limitation.

 

Alternately, you could just use Change Environment to impose a penalty on Activation Rolls, the same way it can impose a penalty on Skill Rolls, Characteristic Rolls, etc.

 

In either case, you may need the Varying Effect Advantage to target different types of powers.  Making a suit of armor provide less protection and making someone's telepathy less reliable would be drastically different effects.

 

 

I'm not sure that a Limitation on the Damage Reduction would be appropriate. Reducing the effectiveness of the defense is the whole purpose of the Power.  It would be like Resistant Protection getting a Limitation because it can be reduced by Armor Piercing attacks.

[JackValhalla]

Sounds like a Naked Advantage sort of situation. Or in this case a Naked Limitation taken as Usable As Attack. That is the cleanest and most direct build for what you're looking for, right?

[Grailknight]

Hmm, you want your power to change how another character's powers function mechanically?

 

Drain or Aid give boosts or reductions in Active DC's but don't change Advantages/Limitations so they're out.

 

Change Environment could give penalties but would be restricted by SFX. 

 

By RAW, the only permissible way to change someone else's mechanical function is with a Transform. Giving an opponent a Limitation seems to be a textbook use and there are actual rules for adding powers to transformed targets.

[Surrealone]

IIRC, I don't believe Change Environment can be used to add advantages or make improvements -- I seem to recall it can only add limitations or levy penalties.  It also doesn't 'feel' quite right ... as someone with this capability probably isn't changing the environment ... and is more likely assisting a specific person or tinkering with a specific focus.

 

I think Grailknight called it correctly -- Transform -- most likely a Minor one.

[Amorkca]

I agree with the Transform but think if your adding a limitation to someone's existing power then its a Major Transform, not a minor one.

[Lee]

Thanks for the replies everyone, but I think I didn't express myself very well. I don't want to dynamically add Advantages or Limitations. Let me try again:

 

• I want an Advantage that can be added to an attack power (e.g Blast) when it's being built that will reduce the activation roll of the Damage Reduction. In other words, I want a way to build an attack that can overcome the defense by reducing its activation roll.
• I want a Limitation that can be added to the Damage Reduction power when it's being built that reflects the fact that it's not as effective as Damage Reduction that isn't affected by the above Advantage. Limited Power would work, but I'm unsure of how limiting being vulnerable to the Advantage would be (e.g. half as effective, one-quarter, etc.).

I hope that clarifies things a bit and thanks again for your ideas and suggestions.

 

Lee

[Lucius]

 

What are your Special Effects? WHY do some attacks make the defense less likely to work?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Imposing an Activation Roll on a

[Armitage]

The purpose of the Advantage is to reduce the effectiveness of the defense, so the defense would not get a Limitation for being subject to that Advantage.

 

Again, that would be like Resistant Protection taking the Limitation "Half Effect Against Armor Piercing Attacks".  It's not the same as a Special Effects-based Limitation such as "Not Effective Against Fire Attacks".  The attack already paid more points to be more effective; the defense doesn't pay less points for being less effective against the attack.

 

Unless, of course, the defense in question has its Activation Roll reduced even more than some other defense would.

e.g. The attack reduces a normal target's Activation Roll by 3, but against a target whose defenses have the Limitation, the Activation Roll is reduced by 6.

[Hugh Neilson]

We have Armor Piercing and Penetrating, and an advantage to bypass Damage Negation, IIRC. I don't recall an advantage which permits an attack to bypass damage reduction, but perhaps a +1/4 advantage for each halving that the attack ignores might be suitable. I could see a smaller advantage than that, given the relative rarity of Damage Reduction (DR). Applying that advantage to the attack would create an attack which always bypasses DR.

 

Now we can simulate the "sometimes" aspect by placing an Activation Roll limitation on the advantage itself, making it a partially limited power, rather than reducing the activation roll of the target's DR. Let's say we apply a 8- Activation Roll to the advantage. If the target's DR has a 14- activation roll, then the DR will work if the target makes his roll (90.74% likely) and the attacker fails his (74.07% likely), so the odds of the target's DR working has been reduced from 90.74% to 67.21%, which falls between 11- and 12- for the DR to work.

 

That seems to simulate the desired result - Damage Reduction is less likely to work when I use this attack. As Lucius says, assessing how well it matches the desired ability requires us to understand what the ability does, rather than the desired mechanical effect. What about this attack causes Damage Reduction to be less likely to reduce the damage it inflicts (while not making it any more effective in by passing other forms of defenses - or is the attack also purchasing advantages to bypass other forms of defenses - maybe it is also Penetrating, for example)?

 

Finally, if we're going to have an advantage for attacks that can allow them to bypass damage reduction, we'll surely also need an advantage for Damage Reduction to negate that advantage on the attack, so that the arm's race can continue.

[eepjr24]

I don't think an advantage is appropriate for the attacking power. You probably need a linked power. Something like:

 

Change Environment: -2 to Skill Roll for Damage Reduction. 6 Active Points, 6 Real Points

 

The defending power does not get a limitation because it is always vulnerable to this attack by way of having taken the Requires A Roll limitation. Unless, as Armitage points out it is MORE vulnerable to this attack (say, it is doubly affected by the above power, for a total of -4), then I would apply a limitation similar to the advantage Difficult to Dispel, -1/4 per doubling.

 

I would probably use Power Defense to defend against this attack, at a value of 1 power defense per -1 roll prevented, unless you have a particular SFX that dictates a different defense.

 

- E

[Surrealone]

I don't think an advantage is appropriate for the attacking power. You probably need a linked power. Something like:

 

Change Environment: -2 to Skill Roll for Damage Reduction. 6 Active Points, 6 Real Points

 

The defending power does not get a limitation because it is always vulnerable to this attack by way of having taken the Requires A Roll limitation. Unless, as Armitage points out it is MORE vulnerable to this attack (say, it is doubly affected by the above power, for a total of -4), then I would apply a limitation similar to the advantage Difficult to Dispel, -1/4 per doubling.

 

I would probably use Power Defense to defend against this attack, at a value of 1 power defense per -1 roll prevented, unless you have a particular SFX that dictates a different defense.

 

- E

I like this approach.  I also like that it does nothing (i.e. it doesn't add an Activation Roll) to a power that doesn't already have an Activation Roll, as that's the part I was wrestling with as I read this thread.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The way I simulated abilities that reduced limitations (like, say, a magic item that makes wizards not have to incant to cast a spell) is to build the power of x active points with the limitation and without, compare the price (like, 100 active points with a -1/4 limitation and without: 80 with, 100 without), then the difference is the cost of the limitation.  Then the raw cost is adjusted by other modifiers, such as focus etc.  That gives you a power that eliminates the need for a limitation up to 100 active points.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Deleting annoying double post due to massive wireless lag this morning

[eepjr24]

The way I simulated abilities that reduced limitations (like, say, a magic item that makes wizards not have to incant to cast a spell) is to build the power of x active points with the limitation and without, compare the price (like, 100 active points with a -1/4 limitation and without: 80 with, 100 without), then the difference is the cost of the limitation.  Then the raw cost is adjusted by other modifiers, such as focus etc.  That gives you a power that eliminates the need for a limitation up to 100 active points.

I don't get how this would apply here. He is wanting to INCREASE a limitation on someone else.

 

- E

[massey]

Hello everyone,

 

I'm looking for some opinions about how to build a Power or Advantage that allows a character to reduce the "activation roll" (Requires A Roll) of another character's power. I'd also like a Limitation that can be applied to the affected power to indicate that it is affected by the "reducing" Advantage/Power and is thus, less effective. Here are some specifics:

 

I have a power that is Damage Reduction at 100% (from the APG) but Requires A Roll (the activation roll). This roll will never be better than 13-. The roll is required every time the Damage Reduction power reduces damage.

 

First of all, I want an Advantage (or power) that will allow another character to reduce (make worse) the activation roll of this Damage Reduction power, even to the point of making it impossible to activate.

 

Secondly, I want a Limitation that can be applied to the Damage Reduction power that, because it is vulnerable to the above Advantage/Power,'it's less effective than the base power and thus worth fewer points.

 

I don't think Drain is appropriate as it doesn't really apply to rolls. I think the same thing of Dispel. I also couldn't find any Skill or Talent that seemed appropriate. None of the Advantages that I'm familiar with seemed to do what I want, either.

 

So, how would you build this combination of Advantage for the attacking power and Limitation for the Damage Reduction?

 

Thanks,

Lee

 

Honestly, you're going way out of your way to make the power work like that.  It's possible to build something that way, but it's an extremely convoluted power construction, and it is well outside of how characters are normally built.  Again, not impossible, but it's far more complicated than it needs to be.  I had to read your posts several times to figure out what you were trying to build.

 

What you are asking for is not covered by the standard advantages and limitations in Hero.  That doesn't make it impossible, it just means we've got to take a very roundabout way to build it.

 

So it looks like you're asking for:

 

--You are buying 100% Damage Reduction.  And that costs, what, 120 points?  I don't have the APG.  Now you're going to put a limitation on it.  I'll put 14- at a -1/2 limitation (because I don't remember what 13- is worth and the -1/2 math is easy).  So that means it's 80 points for 100% Damage Reduction, 14- activation.

 

--Now you want your opponent to be able to lower (i.e., make worse) your activation roll with his power.  So he could use his power, and your 100% Reduction goes from a 14-, to an 11-.  (There are several ways to do this, but none are straightforward.  We'll get to that a bit later.)

 

--Finally, due to the existence of this new ability to nerf your Damage Reduction, you want to get a cost break on it, because this brand new power your opponent might have, makes your Damage Reduction not as good as it used to be.

 

----

 

First, the good news.  There are several ways to do this that are perfectly book legal.

Now, the bad news.  To meet all three of your requirements, this is the sort of thing that probably needs to be established in a campaign or a game world from the very beginning, it is quite difficult to tack this sort of thing on a character at the end, and have it work the way you want it to work.

 

What I mean is this.  Superman is vulnerable to Kryptonite.  That's fine as a disadvantage in the game world, since everybody already knows what Kryptonite is.  You know if you're playing in the DC universe, that Superman will be around, and you'll probably need Kryptonite to fight him.  The GM might need to set some guidelines on how to build that glowing green rock, as far as game stats go, but everybody is aware of it going in.  But with your character, the power construct that you're talking about, isn't listed in any book.  Your character, Damage Reduction Man, isn't nearly as well known as Superman.  You can come up with some funky power construct, where you're somehow vulnerable to a weird thing that isn't a traditional attack power.  But almost nobody is going to have that power.  So it's really not much of a limitation.

 

Let's look at it in practice, and I'll show you what I mean.  Maybe that will be more clear.

 

There are several ways to let an opponent reduce the activation roll on your powers.  Just none of them that are covered by the basic rules.  So your opponent really has no reason to take this new "just made up" set of powers.  

 

Example:

You have 100% Damage Reduction, 14- activation (as we covered earlier).

You put an additional limitation on it.  "Activation roll goes down by one (14- to 13-, 13- to 12-, etc) for every level of 'Difficult to Dispel' on attack."

 

So if your opponent has 10D6 Energy Blast, you get your full normal Damage Reduction.  If your opponent has a 10D6 Energy Blast, with one level of Difficult to Dispel, then you have a 13- activation.  If he has two levels of Difficult to Dispel, then you have a 12- activation.  If he has 3 levels of Difficult to Dispel, then you have an 11- activation.

 

Simple, right?  The problem is, nobody ever takes "Difficult to Dispel" on their attacks.  Never, ever, ever.  Especially nobody takes that advantage multiple times on their attack powers.  In 20 years of Champions gaming, I've never even seen it once.  So you're basically vulnerable to an attack that nobody ever takes.  That's like taking x2 damage from pillows.  It's not worth any points.  It's perfectly legal to put that limitation on your defenses.  It just isn't going to be worth more than a -0 limitation.  Nobody ever uses it.  Nobody ever takes that power.  So it isn't worth a points discount to you.

 

Example 2:

You have 100% Damage Reduction, 14- activation.

Your opponent takes 4D6 Major Transform: changes target to version of target with worse activation rolls.

 

There.  That allows your opponent to lower your activation rolls.  Perfectly book legal.  The problem is, he can do that anyway.  He doesn't need you to take a special limitation on your power to be able to do that.  He paid for a Transform, so he can do it.  This also isn't worth a points discount to you.

 

--

 

For you to really get the effect you're looking for, it needs to be established in the campaign.  It needs to be something that people in the campaign would buy, because they know how it works.  For you to get points back, it basically needs to be something that other people would purchase anyway.  Which means it needs to be something that was either already useful for another reason, or it needs to be something that most people with Damage Reduction always take.

 

If the other guy has to pay points to get this ability, then you probably shouldn't get a points discount for it.  If you're getting a points discount for it, then the other guy probably shouldn't have to pay for it.

[massey]

The simplest way to do this, that I can see, is to write up a custom limitation that makes you vulnerable to things that other characters can already do.

 

Something like this:

 

Bob's Invulnerable Suit of Armor

100% Damage Reduction, 14- activation (-1/2)

OIF (-1/2)

Custom limitation: Can be bypassed by trick shot.  Opponents can use 1 combat level to reduce activation roll by 1.  (-1/2)

120 Active Points.  48 Real Cost.

 

So the special effect is that they're aiming at a part of the body that isn't covered by the armor.  It's using something that many characters will already have (combat skill levels).  And logically it makes enough sense that somebody might actually try to use it in the game.  "Can I aim at the part that isn't covered by armor?"  That's probably worth a limitation on the power.

 

But requiring someone to buy what is an otherwise useless power, just to partially bypass your character's damage reduction, that isn't gonna get you a point savings.  Something like that would need to be common enough in the campaign that people would want to buy it even if they weren't gonna face you.

 

For instance, let's say you're playing in a post-apocalyptic future setting.

 

Electromagnetic cannon

4D6 RKA

3D6 Drain vs Damage Reduction

 

Experimental killer robot force field

100% Damage Reduction, 14- activation (-1/2)

Custom Limitation:  Each hit from Drain will lower activation roll by 1. (-1/2)

 

Something like that could work.  You've got resistance fighters running around fighting killer robots.  And the EM cannons are normal equipment that people in the setting are using.  Even if not everybody is equipped with them, they're available.  And the Drain is a normal power that has an obvious use.  Versus a normal opponent with 50% Reduction, it will take about 6 hits (because adjustment powers are halved) before you overload their Killer Robot Force Field.  So people have a reason to take it.  Your Experimental Killer Robot Force Field is better than normal, but it has a distinct vulnerability.  The Drain makes your activation roll much worse.  Therefore, it's worth a real limitation.

 

Of course, this requires that the setting support the value of your limitation.  It relies upon the idea that this equipment is out there, in use, and that it makes sense in the story.  If you are not playing in a post-apocalyptic setting, where Drain vs Robot Damage Reduction is available and understood to be a valuable thing to have, then your limitation isn't worth nearly the same amount.

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK I misunderstood.  Increasing the limitation on someone else is a transformation attack per the rules right now.  Minor, I'd judge.  The problem is, the game doesn't simulate this kind of thing very well, which is why in the discussion of 6th edition I really liked the suggestion by someone here (I can't remember who) for using a modified Drain mechanic to do it.  I'd call it "curse" and it would be a new adjustment power.

 

The way Curse works is you roll dice like drain, modify it by power defense of the target, then apply the points rolled for active cost of the effect.  You can use it for any detrimental effect, preferably those not covered by other rules (one of the basic hero rules - use the existing power for what it does, not another to simulate it).  Things like adding complications to a target, adding limitations, removing advantages, etc.  Any effect that would increase damage taken or lower defenses would be halved in effect, as usual (and the usual stat modifiers, however they would apply, such as END effects being halved).  Each effect is specific, ala Drain, but could be bought with an advantage to affect more than one power at a time, or any one power of a suite of effects as per the Drain rules.

 

So if you wanted to give people "extra time" on their blast, you buy Curse of xd6, and roll.  You'd have to get the full effect of the power to make it now take extra time.

 

For example: Curse of Slowness

Curse 3d6 Blast gives Delayed Effect extra time advantage.

this is a +1/4 advantage, so to give it to, say, a 12d6 blast, it would require 75 points of effect (60 x 1.25).  That means a lot of dice rolling for the power, but it eventually would do the job.  Naturally, it fades as normal; 5 points per turn, so you'd be working against time as you rolled 3d6 over and over to get the effect.

 

This would be best used for things like "susceptibility to magic" given to a target, or smaller effects, but fills a gap in the rules - at least a gap far more noticeable than a lack of Damage Negation.

[Lee]

Unless, of course, the defense in question has its Activation Roll reduced even more than some other defense would.

e.g. The attack reduces a normal target's Activation Roll by 3, but against a target whose defenses have the Limitation, the Activation Roll is reduced by 6.

 

Yes, that's what I mean. Ordinarily, the attack wouldn't affect the Activation Roll at all (reduces the Activation Roll by 0), but a target that had the Limitation on the defense would have it's Activation Roll reduced by some amount X that's greater than 0 (depending upon the level of the Advantage I'm also trying to create).

[Lee]

We have Armor Piercing and Penetrating, and an advantage to bypass Damage Negation, IIRC. I don't recall an advantage which permits an attack to bypass damage reduction, but perhaps a +1/4 advantage for each halving that the attack ignores might be suitable. I could see a smaller advantage than that, given the relative rarity of Damage Reduction (DR). Applying that advantage to the attack would create an attack which always bypasses DR.

 

Now we can simulate the "sometimes" aspect by placing an Activation Roll limitation on the advantage itself, making it a partially limited power, rather than reducing the activation roll of the target's DR. Let's say we apply a 8- Activation Roll to the advantage. If the target's DR has a 14- activation roll, then the DR will work if the target makes his roll (90.74% likely) and the attacker fails his (74.07% likely), so the odds of the target's DR working has been reduced from 90.74% to 67.21%, which falls between 11- and 12- for the DR to work.

 

 

Interesting! I had not thought about it from that angle before. I have some very definite percentages in mind and it may be relatively easy to get the "bypass" percentages where I need them to be rather than the activation percentages. I like the idea. I've got some number crunching to do...

[Lee]

I don't think an advantage is appropriate for the attacking power. You probably need a linked power. Something like:

 

Change Environment: -2 to Skill Roll for Damage Reduction. 6 Active Points, 6 Real Points

 

Yes, I too wondered if a linked power would work better than an Advantage, but I couldn't think of which power to use. I never considered Change Environment. I'll have to look at it more closely. Thanks.

[Lee]

So it looks like you're asking for:

 

--You are buying 100% Damage Reduction.  And that costs, what, 120 points?  I don't have the APG.  Now you're going to put a limitation on it.  I'll put 14- at a -1/2 limitation (because I don't remember what 13- is worth and the -1/2 math is easy).  So that means it's 80 points for 100% Damage Reduction, 14- activation.

 

--Now you want your opponent to be able to lower (i.e., make worse) your activation roll with his power.  So he could use his power, and your 100% Reduction goes from a 14-, to an 11-.  (There are several ways to do this, but none are straightforward.  We'll get to that a bit later.)

 

--Finally, due to the existence of this new ability to nerf your Damage Reduction, you want to get a cost break on it, because this brand new power your opponent might have, makes your Damage Reduction not as good as it used to be.

 

----

 

First, the good news.  There are several ways to do this that are perfectly book legal.

Now, the bad news.  To meet all three of your requirements, this is the sort of thing that probably needs to be established in a campaign or a game world from the very beginning, it is quite difficult to tack this sort of thing on a character at the end, and have it work the way you want it to work.

 

What I mean is this.  Superman is vulnerable to Kryptonite.  That's fine as a disadvantage in the game world, since everybody already knows what Kryptonite is.  You know if you're playing in the DC universe, that Superman will be around, and you'll probably need Kryptonite to fight him.  The GM might need to set some guidelines on how to build that glowing green rock, as far as game stats go, but everybody is aware of it going in.  But with your character, the power construct that you're talking about, isn't listed in any book.  Your character, Damage Reduction Man, isn't nearly as well known as Superman.  You can come up with some funky power construct, where you're somehow vulnerable to a weird thing that isn't a traditional attack power.  But almost nobody is going to have that power.  So it's really not much of a limitation.

 

Let's look at it in practice, and I'll show you what I mean.  Maybe that will be more clear.

 

There are several ways to let an opponent reduce the activation roll on your powers.  Just none of them that are covered by the basic rules.  So your opponent really has no reason to take this new "just made up" set of powers.  

 

Example:

You have 100% Damage Reduction, 14- activation (as we covered earlier).

You put an additional limitation on it.  "Activation roll goes down by one (14- to 13-, 13- to 12-, etc) for every level of 'Difficult to Dispel' on attack."

 

So if your opponent has 10D6 Energy Blast, you get your full normal Damage Reduction.  If your opponent has a 10D6 Energy Blast, with one level of Difficult to Dispel, then you have a 13- activation.  If he has two levels of Difficult to Dispel, then you have a 12- activation.  If he has 3 levels of Difficult to Dispel, then you have an 11- activation.

 

Simple, right?  The problem is, nobody ever takes "Difficult to Dispel" on their attacks.  Never, ever, ever.  Especially nobody takes that advantage multiple times on their attack powers.  In 20 years of Champions gaming, I've never even seen it once.  So you're basically vulnerable to an attack that nobody ever takes.  That's like taking x2 damage from pillows.  It's not worth any points.  It's perfectly legal to put that limitation on your defenses.  It just isn't going to be worth more than a -0 limitation.  Nobody ever uses it.  Nobody ever takes that power.  So it isn't worth a points discount to you.

 

Example 2:

You have 100% Damage Reduction, 14- activation.

Your opponent takes 4D6 Major Transform: changes target to version of target with worse activation rolls.

 

There.  That allows your opponent to lower your activation rolls.  Perfectly book legal.  The problem is, he can do that anyway.  He doesn't need you to take a special limitation on your power to be able to do that.  He paid for a Transform, so he can do it.  This also isn't worth a points discount to you.

 

--

 

For you to really get the effect you're looking for, it needs to be established in the campaign.  It needs to be something that people in the campaign would buy, because they know how it works.  For you to get points back, it basically needs to be something that other people would purchase anyway.  Which means it needs to be something that was either already useful for another reason, or it needs to be something that most people with Damage Reduction always take.

 

If the other guy has to pay points to get this ability, then you probably shouldn't get a points discount for it.  If you're getting a points discount for it, then the other guy probably shouldn't have to pay for it.

 

Yes, you have it exactly right. That's what I'm looking to build and I like your #1 example. As far as it being established in the campaign, indeed it is. Everyone has it available and is used commonly. Also, the attacks that will have the advantage are generally weapons, so you only need to equip the weapon to have the ability. So, while most people never use Difficult To Dispel, that would be built into the weapon(s) available for the characters to use. They wouldn't need to worry about buying it as long as they had the appropriate weapon.

 

I guess I was being a little too vague, but I was looking for a generalized solution and tried to break my question down into its simplest parts.

 

Einstein was right: "As simple as possible, but not too simple..."

 

Thanks for putting in as much thought as you did. I'm going to play around with your ideas first.

 

Lee

[steriaca]

Have you looked at the Advantage "Irreducible" (+1/4 Advantage, page 87 of the Advanced Player's Guide)? That would be a better way to model it. Or "Not Against (Special Effect)" Limitatiin? Yes, they are all or nothing effects, but that IS the easy way to do it, along with Requires A Roll.

[Hugh Neilson]

Have you looked at the Advantage "Irreducible" (+1/4 Advantage, page 87 of the Advanced Player's Guide)? That would be a better way to model it. Or "Not Against (Special Effect)" Limitatiin? Yes, they are all or nothing effects, but that IS the easy way to do it, along with Requires A Roll.

There's the missing piece to my approach - the Irreducible advantage already exists.

 

BTW, no I would not give the DR a limitation, any more than I would let a character buy Defenses with a limitation for being halved by Armor Piercing. They're already halved by Armor Piercing.

[Lee]

Have you looked at the Advantage "Irreducible" (+1/4 Advantage, page 87 of the Advanced Player's Guide)? That would be a better way to model it. Or "Not Against (Special Effect)" Limitatiin? Yes, they are all or nothing effects, but that IS the easy way to do it, along with Requires A Roll.

 

No, I didn't read down that far. I wish it wasn't all or nothing. I'm leaning towards multiple levels of Hard To Dispel that reduce the DR's Activation Roll rather than an Activation Roll for the attack. I know it could achieve the same effect, but I want a way to differentiate a DR that is subject to a reduction in its Activation Roll and one that is not. If I achieve the same effect using an Activation Roll on the attack, all DR's are the same--not what I want.

 

Thanks for pointing it out, though. I may prove very useful in other situations.