Damage Negation vs. Other Defenses

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its only "lazy" if you presume without possibility of difference of opinoin that there is only one possible way to build this power.  You're assuming a single write up in Hero, then arguing anyone who doesn't use that one power you insist upon is not just wrong but lazy because they aren't doing it your way.

 

If you start from the assumption that this is Hero and there's no one way to build anything, that its up to you how you build a character based on the special effects, then its not lazy, its just a different approach to building something in the game with the toolkit.

 

See how Ndreare writes it above?

That simulates how the comic book effect works.  It does the job, in Hero, quite well.  Almost as if there might be other ways of doing it than you insist.

 

There's a word in the dictionary you might want to look up: Calumny.

[bigdamnhero]

I've only ever used DN to model extra defenses against a specific sfx (ring of protection from magic, werewolf immunity to non-silver weapons, et. al.). Given that, I don't think I've actually used Reduced Negation: if the DN is defined as not working against silver, then silver weapons just ignore it - they don't need to be built with Reduced Negation. Tho that would be a good way to price it out if a player wanted to put a silver weapon slot in their VPP or MP, I just don't think that has ever come up.

 

I like the concept of DN, and it feels generally balanced to me compared to other defenses. But honestly I have noticed myself using it less over time in favor of just adding "traditional" defenses "Only vs ____." One less mechanism to explain.

[Lucius]

Yes, and that is why probability and averages are important when doing analysis.

 

Also why the difference between 3d6, 4dF, and 1d6-1d6 are statistically relevant, to drag other recent quibbling over dice into memory. 

 

Of course it's relevant. Never said it wasn't.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that there's no point in offering a choice between identical options.

[bigbywolfe]

The fact that someone can't tell the difference between mechanics and special effects doesn't mean that those who can are lazy.

A Wolverine built with no rDEF and a crap-ton of Regen is going to spend most fights unconscious but unkillable or be ridiculously over priced.

[Hyper-Man]

re: Regeneration

 

from an old 5er post I made in 2009:

29 Regeneration - Triggered Per Wound: Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Whenever takes BODY; +1), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; (5er, page 188) This Advantage allows a character to apply Healing more than once a day.; +1 1/2) (58 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2), Always On (-1/2)
[Notes: Each wound needs to be tracked separately because although 2 BODY is immediately applied on the Phase a particular wound occurs it doesn't occur again for that same wound until 12 additional Phases have passed.] - END=0

This would work on any number and size of wounds. It's just a bookkeeping nightmare. It would still be possible to kill a character with this ability, it would just require several attacks that each cause the loss of 3+ BODY in a short period of time to overwhelm. The Armor approach can only be breached by attacks that exceed it's defense.

 

The argument for just using a certain amount of Resistant defenses instead is really no different than the one for a speedster's rapid flurry of punches to be built with a single HA without the use of the Autofire Advantage (and all the added gametime calculations that it would require).

 

HM

[Killer Shrike]

Of course it's relevant. Never said it wasn't.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that there's no point in offering a choice between identical options.

 

I didn't say _you_ did.

[Tasha]

Me, too.  But people here have already alluded to the fact that they would use something other than a high rate of Regeneration coupled with high CON and high STUN when modeling Wolverine and/or Deadpool -- and label it as a regenerative special effect.  I wouldn't, as this is something I categorically consider lazy building technique that is dependent on handwaving the SFX of one power as representative of the actual effects of another power.

 

For folk who have quick instant healing I ALWAYS define part of it as Resistant Defenses with Hardened. Remember don't get caught up in your assumptions of what you THINK a power's special effect should be. That's backward thinking in Hero. You always should ask yourself what the Ability you are trying to model does vs the powers you can use to model that ability. Many Regenerators heal VERY fast and only very very over the top damage takes time to heal. So IMHO that lesser damage is handled by the Resistant Defenses. It's hardened because an AP round really shouldn't do extra damage in this case, most AP rounds would be EASIER to heal because they make less damage. Any leftover BODY Damage is take care of by the Regeneration over Turns/minutes or Hours depending on who's regen vs catastrophic damage you are modeling

[Tasha]

I've only ever used DN to model extra defenses against a specific sfx (ring of protection from magic, werewolf immunity to non-silver weapons, et. al.). Given that, I don't think I've actually used Reduced Negation: if the DN is defined as not working against silver, then silver weapons just ignore it - they don't need to be built with Reduced Negation. Tho that would be a good way to price it out if a player wanted to put a silver weapon slot in their VPP or MP, I just don't think that has ever come up.

 

I like the concept of DN, and it feels generally balanced to me compared to other defenses. But honestly I have noticed myself using it less over time in favor of just adding "traditional" defenses "Only vs ____." One less mechanism to explain.

DN does it's job well, but I have ALWAYS hated the actual mechanic involved. It is so very different from any other mechanic for defending against damage that it feels 'wrong'. I really hate telling players "roll 6 less dice of damage against this target". It takes away from some of the mystery of combat. It is still a useful effect for some stuff, but I don't usually allow PCs to buy the power on their characters.

[Christopher]

The fact that someone can't tell the difference between mechanics and special effects doesn't mean that those who can are lazy.

A Wolverine built with no rDEF and a crap-ton of Regen is going to spend most fights unconscious but unkillable or be ridiculously over priced.

Most likely both at the same time.

Regeneration is plain not designed for body and stun healing on the scale that would be needed for a Wolverine.

Trying to use Regeneration only is a bit like trying to hammer a nail into the wall, using the handle of a screwdriver. It might work, but you are better off just looking for that Hammer

 

DN does it's job well, but I have ALWAYS hated the actual mechanic involved. It is so very different from any other mechanic for defending against damage that it feels 'wrong'. I really hate telling players "roll 6 less dice of damage against this target". It takes away from some of the mystery of combat. It is still a useful effect for some stuff, but I don't usually allow PCs to buy the power on their characters.

Defintely, applying it during combat is one of the harder parts of the power.

That is especially true for advantages attacks.

And the Area of Effect advantage makes it a whole nother story.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I do think that Damage Negation is one more tool, albeit a lot like the unitaskers Alton Brown doesn't care for -- they aren't really just for one job, just a solution to a problem nobody really had.  In the end, DN probably will be retooled a bit, because its new and not exactly balanced just right.

[dsatow]

Personally, my biggest gripe with Damage Negation is with the term DC.  It should be active points rather than DC since DC sometimes misleads people to think that a 10d6 AP EB hitting a person with -5DC damage negation would equal to a 5d6 attack when actually they will get hit with a 6d6 attack due to the AP advantage on the attack.

[Hugh Neilson]

Personally, my biggest gripe with Damage Negation is with the term DC.  It should be active points rather than DC since DC sometimes misleads people to think that a 10d6 AP EB hitting a person with -5DC damage negation would equal to a 5d6 attack when actually they will get hit with a 6d6 attack due to the AP advantage on the attack.

DC works fine from where I sit. Those same people will have lots of other problems as they will think a 12 DC cap permits a 12d6 AP, Penetrating, NND or AVLD Hardened Smell Flash Defense attack, so their games are already cratered.