Why FTL Travel when there is Megascale Flight?

[C-Note]

I'm sure this has been discussed before but my search didn't turn up anything current. 1m of Flight with Megascale 1m=1,000,000km is 3 points, and approximately lightspeed for a SPD 4 character or ship (2x lighspeed non-combat).  "Faster-Than-Light Travel" as a Power feels like it was shoe-horned into the Hero System. If I'm missing something in the mechanics, please let me know.

[Chris Goodwin]

FTL Travel dates back to first edition Champions, while MegaScale has only existed since 5e.  

[C-Note]

Thanks. I understand it's "legacy code". Were there reasons it was kept for 6e?

[Scott Baker]

Only Steve Long can answer that question for sure, and he doesn't answer design questions.

[Tasha]

Probably because MegaScale movement can be really expensive. Also, it's not very intuitive to take a form of movement and put on a bajillion levels of megascale on it to achieve FTL.

[Christopher]

Thanks. I understand it's "legacy code". Were there reasons it was kept for 6e?

It is only the 2nd Edition since 5E and there were a lot of bigger fish to fry from 5E to 6E.

 

Funny enough, it never occured to me that FTL and Megascale Flight Overlap. Despite knowing that I would build a "Stargate" like system with "Teleport, Megascale, Gate".

 

I see a few reasons:

Megascale is still useable on "normal" Distances, where with FTL you would plain overshoot.

Megascale affects a lot other dimension the just travel speed. Like AoE coverage.

What was the acceleration/decelleration rate for Megascale with such a massive multiplier again?

As you pointed out, the effective travel speed suddenly is based on SPD. But not for FTL. The correllation between SPD and travel distance is a annoying property of Hero and at least FTL lacks it.

[Lord Liaden]

I've seen published Hero System write-ups for faster-than-light vessels using MegaScale Flight, and MegaScale Teleport, as well as FTL Travel. It's actually pretty common in official Hero to have more than one way to achieve a particular result, like the difference between Normal and Killing Damage attacks; or building martial arts training as extra Limited Strength or CSL, rather than buying Martial Arts Maneuvers. Each approach may have nearly the same effect, but the mechanics and "flavor" of the construct differ somewhat; and those differences may lead a player or GM to prefer one over the other. Maybe one construct just "feels" more like the Special Effect of what the player is going for.

 

Note that the description of FTL Travel does include a clear quantified scale of speed per Character Point cost, which makes it simpler to use than calculating how much MegaScale of X amount of base distance in Flight or Teleport, at what Speed, would result in a comparable rate of travel. Plus it doesn't consume Endurance as the default. Valid reasons why someone might prefer it.

[Christopher]

I've seen published Hero System write-ups for faster-than-light vessels using MegaScale Flight, and MegaScale Teleport, as well as FTL Travel. It's actually pretty common in official Hero to have more than one way to achieve a particular result, like the difference between Normal and Killing Damage attacks; or building martial arts training as extra Limited Strength or CSL, rather than buying Martial Arts Maneuvers. Each approach may have nearly the same effect, but the mechanics and "flavor" of the construct differ somewhat; and those differences may lead a player or GM to prefer one over the other. Maybe one construct just "feels" more like the Special Effect of what the player is going for.

 

Note that the description of FTL Travel does include a clear quantified scale of speed per Character Point cost, which makes it simpler to use than calculating how much MegaScale of X amount of base distance in Flight or Teleport, at what Speed, would result in a comparable rate of travel. Plus it doesn't consume Endurance as the default. Valid reasons why someone might prefer it.

I never actualyl realised it until watching extra credits, but there apparently is something as "Meaning in Mechanics". And right off the bat, how you construct something in your game is you making effectively am mechanic. Again: We the players of Hero are also game designers, with all that entails.

 

Let us take light for example. In most other heroic games (D&D, Shadowrun), light is a minor trick. Something like a 0th or 1st level Spell. But in Hero it is actually quite expensive and complicated point- and buildwise.

I did threw around a few alternatives to make it simpler (inlcuding the option to just make your own "Light" power). But by now I realised it might be an advantage of Heroic Hero. Maybe the other games make Light to cheap? What if the scarcity and complexity could be beneficial for the narative?

[C-Note]

If a character/ship has multiple levels of FTL Travel, what is the shortest distance they can move using the power?  Is it 1 light-second (300,000km)?

[Lord Liaden]

That would be up to individual Game Masters to rule on. Buying multiples of Faster Than Light Travel doesn't automatically mean the character or vehicle has to move faster than one light velocity if that's undesirable, although light speed is the minimum; but if the concept behind the FTL drive includes that it can be set to cut on and off extremely rapidly, on some sort of timer, there's no innate reason it couldn't travel a tenth of a light-second, or a hundredth. But the spirit of the Power is as a device to get characters where they need to go quickly over enormous distances, outside of combat situations. The official builds always include another form of Movement for sublight travel. Getting too fiddly over the details risks changing it from an enabler to a restriction.

[mallet]

It is absolutely nowhere mentioned in the FTL write up, but maybe there is a hidden "unwriten" benefit to FTL in that is also ignores the problems of Relativity but Megascale Flight doesn't.  

 

For example, going faster then light time would pass rapidly on Earth (and everywhere else in the universe) but not for the character, so if you use Megascale Flight to go faster then light speed decades could pass on Earth but it would only be a few minutes or hours for the character. But with the FTL power Relativity problems are ignored as part of the power.

 

I just made that explanation up, but it would justify having the FTL power in the rules, as opposed to Megascale Movement.

 

This would allow for different types of Faster-Then-Light travel options in a game based on the technology or magic of the setting.

 

Because in game terms, FTL travel is actually a form of ExtraDimensional Movement/Teleportation with Time Travel. because you travel to another location, but also go back in time (due to Relativity) so you arrive there close to the time when you left, rather then decades or centuries later. The FTL power just automatically incorporates all of that into it, but Megascale Movement doesn't. 

[Christopher]

It is absolutely nowhere mentioned in the FTL write up, but maybe there is a hidden "unwriten" benefit to FTL in that is also ignores the problems of Relativity but Megascale Flight doesn't. 

I would say that does not apply. You do not incur "logical but annoying side effects" of powers, unless this is in the writeup (missteleport), a limitation or campaign rule.

Speedsters do not have to check if they run into a insect at Mach 5. That would be just about the same thing.

Technicalyl you would get a "stellar Road rash" at any fraction of the speed of light.

Not to mention that leaving FTL might well wipe out all life in the Target System.

 

The more you think about it, the more FTL appears to be a "Plot Device" power. Maybe something so you have a writeup if you need something like a "FTL Inhibitor" field.

But overall I consider FTL to be either part of the Equipment (at wich point the GM can apply stuff like need Navigation Rolls) or a clear cut case of "What not to spend points on".

[Beast]

I'm of the school that any Mega-scale movement has a min of 10m
having 1m at 1,000,000,000km does not allow you to go 900,000,000km
you would need to do 100,000,000km 9 times

I'm sure this has been discussed before but my search didn't turn up anything current. 1m of Flight with Megascale 1m=1,000,000km is 3 points, and approximately lightspeed for a SPD 4 character or ship (2x lighspeed non-combat).  "Faster-Than-Light Travel" as a Power feels like it was shoe-horned into the Hero System. If I'm missing something in the mechanics, please let me know.

[Tasha]

5e and 6e Megascale are different in subtle ways. In 5e you have to buy something to scale up or down. in 6e the Ability to scale down is free and you limit it to restrict the ability to scale down. 

 

As far as I can tell 6e killed the idea of Minimum cost. So you could just buy 1m of base movement and Megascale it big enough to reach anywhere in the galaxy in one phase.

 

For FTL travel it costs 10pts to go 1ly/year (aka the speed of light) every 2 points doubles the distance traveled in one year. +10pts to instantly accelerate/decelerate in 2m

 

[Beast]

w/ FTL the characters speed has no effect on how fast you travel
where it does in mega scale

I'm sure this has been discussed before but my search didn't turn up anything current. 1m of Flight with Megascale 1m=1,000,000km is 3 points, and approximately lightspeed for a SPD 4 character or ship (2x lighspeed non-combat).  "Faster-Than-Light Travel" as a Power feels like it was shoe-horned into the Hero System. If I'm missing something in the mechanics, please let me know.

[Beast]

for me buying 1m and adding mega scale is a cheap and cheesy way to go

 

5e and 6e Megascale are different in subtle ways. In 5e you have to buy something to scale up or down. in 6e the Ability to scale down is free and you limit it to restrict the ability to scale down. 

 

As far as I can tell 6e killed the idea of Minimum cost. So you could just buy 1m of base movement and Megascale it big enough to reach anywhere in the galaxy in one phase.

 

For FTL travel it costs 10pts to go 1ly/year (aka the speed of light) every 2 points doubles the distance traveled in one year. +10pts to instantly accelerate/decelerate in 2m

 

[Tasha]

for me buying 1m and adding mega scale is a cheap and cheesy way to go

But it has it's limitations. It's noncombat movement so at half DCV (or is it Zero, I forget and am too lazy to look it up now). and you can only make one hop. I usually only buy it for super fast out of combat movement, which turns into a flavor thing. 

[Beast]

DCV from velocity will still be horribly high even at a base of zero
I listed out the big one where it would take 9 hops to the job
for me and every gm I have played with have required the 10m min buy in for megascale

really it would just make your flight power in to a flight multipower and the cost is minimal

 

But it has it's limitations. It's noncombat movement so at half DCV (or is it Zero, I forget and am too lazy to look it up now). and you can only make one hop. I usually only buy it for super fast out of combat movement, which turns into a flavor thing. 

[Tasha]

DCV from velocity will still be horribly high even at a base of zero

I listed out the big one where it would take 9 hops to the job

for me and every gm I have played with have required the 10m min buy in for megascale

really it would just make your flight power in to a flight multipower and the cost is minimal

DCV from Velocity is an optional rule. One that I wouldn't use for folk with MegaScale Flight or Running. As it negates the penalty of going non combat.

[Hugh Neilson]

for me and every gm I have played with have required the 10m min buy in for megascale

really it would just make your flight power in to a flight multipower and the cost is minimal

If it's minimal either way, why enforce the minimum 10 meters?

[whitekeys]

The OP asked Steve this the other day. He responded yesterday with:

 

 

I don’t currently have access to all of my books and materials, which have been packed up as part of my home renovation project, so I reserve the right to edit or change this answer at a future time. 

 

1. See 6E1 158.

 

2. The rules don’t establish a minimum travel distance for FTL (or any other Movement Power), so this is a question best left to the GM. And don’t forget that the rules strictly forbid using FTL Travel in an atmosphere.

 

#2 answers the question about minimum distance and also one of the big differences between FTL and Flight, MegaScale.

[C-Note]

Thanks for posting Steve's reply here. I did not have an opportunity to do so. Regarding minimum distance, I would rule in my game that the shortest distance you can move using FTL Travel is 1 Phase at 1/12th lightspeed, or 25,000km. No half-moves as per 6E1 225 and the assumption that it takes a full turn to "accelerate" to lightspeed.

[Hyper-Man]

FTL is to Megascale Movement what Combat Luck is to Resistant Defense. One is basically a shorthand limited case version of the other.

 

Personally I like the longhand versions so I can build stuff like this from my rookie version of The Flash:

 

8) Orbital Speed Running:  Flight 16m, No Turn Mode (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), MegaScale (1m = 1 km; +1), Noncombat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1) (60 Active Points); Only In Contact With A Surface (This Limitation is primarily due to his Psychological Limitation: Fear of Flying. Flash believes that he can't properly fly without spining arms or something similar. Reduce active points down to 50 without this Limitation; -1/4) Real Cost: 40

Notes: Top Speed (with current Advantages) = 18,000mph ( ~ Mach 24) or 8km/s (kilometers per second). Velocity Based DCV = 17. Orbital speed at Sea Level = 7.90973km/s (This means that IF he were to lose contact with the surface while AT or ABOVE this speed he will NOT fall due to Gravity since he's travelling at ESCAPE VELOCITY!)

 

9) Speed Force Running:  Flight 10m, No Turn Mode (+1/4), Combat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Noncombat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1), Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1), Grantor can take back power at any time, Recipient must be within Limited Range of the Grantor for power to be granted, MegaScale (1m = 10,000 km; +2) (60 Active Points); Only In Contact With A Surface (This Limitation is primarily due to his Psychological Limitation: Fear of Flying. Flash believes that he can't properly fly without spining arms or something similar. Reduce active points down to 50 without this Limitation; -1/4) Real Cost: 40

Notes: Top Speed (with current Advantages) = 111,846,814 mph or 50,000km/s (kilometers per second) or ~ 1/6th the speed of light (approximately 300,000 km/s, or 186,000 miles per second). From (http://dcanimated.wikia.com/wiki/Divided_We_Fall) his globe circling attack versus Braniac/Luthor 1st Run: 10 seconds @4,000 km/second, 2nd Run: 9 seconds @4,444 km/s, 3rd Run: 11 seconds @3,636 km/s, 4th Run: 5 seconds @8,000 km/s and final 5th Run: 1 second @40,000 km/s

 

HM

[Tasha]

Thanks for posting Steve's reply here. I did not have an opportunity to do so. Regarding minimum distance, I would rule in my game that the shortest distance you can move using FTL Travel is 1 Phase at 1/12th lightspeed, or 25,000km. No half-moves as per 6E1 225 and the assumption that it takes a full turn to "accelerate" to lightspeed.

Just be aware that FTL is not usable in Atmosphere. It is also considered Non Combat Movement

 

6e1 pg 225

"Rules for Movement Powers do not apply to FTL Travel in quite the same way as they do to other Movement Powers. First, characters using FTL Travel are assumed to always be moving at Noncombat Movement velocities; they cannot slow down to Combat Movement. Second, FTL Travel doesn’t have a Turn Mode like many Movement Powers; however, the GM should, as an approximation of a Turn Mode, assume that characters moving at FTL speed require enormous amounts of space to turn or reverse course — they cannot “turn on a dime” like characters can with, for example, Running. Third, normal acceleration/ deceleration rules do not apply to FTL Travel; the GM should assume, again in an approximation of the standard rules, that it takes some time (at least a few Segments) to get up to full FTL speeds. Fourth, characters cannot make Half Moves while moving at FTL velocities, they must use their full amount of movement.

 

A character may only travel faster than light in space. He can never use this Power in an atmosphere, even if Desolidified."

 

so Technically a Megascaled Flight that is FTL can work in Atmosphere. Though you ARE paying more for the power.

 

BTW the speed of light IS 299,792,458 m / s  That is a LOT of megascale.

[Hugh Neilson]

Let's assume a 4 SPD. 9 meters of flight, with +2 1/4 Megascale (that's 900,000 km every 3 seconds). So 29 AP and 3 END per phase. Let's make it 0 END, so 34 AP.

 

Now, we clearly Cannot Hover, so let's make it a minimum half move (-1/2), so we're down to 22 points. And we can use Megascale in an atmosphere, and scale it down, all the way down to tactical scale.

 

This is way more expensive than 1 light year/year FTL, but in addition to having more utility (especially if most of your games do not involve outer space travel with no spacecraft), we can also increase it cheaper. Make it 10 light years per year (+1/4 more Megascale) = real cost 24. Each 10x Multiple costs 1.5 points, so it quickly becomes cheaper than FTL.

 

To the OP question - because FTL was in the first edition, so we still have it, despite newer mechanics, in this case Megascale, superseding it.

 

But don't take it away - just look at what happened when Instant Change was merged into Transform, Regeneration was folded into Healing and Transfer was recognized as Linked Drain and Aid. We must only add, never subtract, powers. Oh, and make it simpler and slim down the rules while you're at it