The TEAMWORK skill -- more than just DEX-based?

[Surrealone]

Those familier with the TEAMWORK skill know it to be a DEX-based Agility skill.  This has always struck me as odd, since I think of teamwork as something that's 50% strategy and 50% timing.  The timing piece would seem to be DEX-based, but I'd think the strategy portion (representing power selection, field position, and other aspects that are NOT related to time) would be INT-based.

 

Thus, I tend to think of the TEAMWORK skill as: TEAMWORK roll = 9 + [ ( (INT/5) + (DEX/5) ) / 2]

 

Do others here use house rules for TEAMWORK and, if so, would you be willing to share how you've house-ruled it ... and the rationale for why?

[Ndreare]

No house rule for it, but I definitely understand your logic.

However benefiting from two attributes will inflate the skill. Perhaps if you let the player select the higher if the two?

[Surrealone]

In this case, I'm a player, not the GM.  That said, our GM -and- all players in our group are interested in this topic, as all involved think TEAMWORK being only DEX-based is strange for the aforementioned reason.

 

The previously-provided formula is being contemplated as a potential house rule for the skill ... but we'd like to see what others may be doing with the skill ... and why.  If there are other suggestions folks feel should be contemplated (perhaps a refinement on the previously-provided formula?), please feel free to provide that sort of feedback, too!

 

Surreal

 

P.S. This is a heroic 5ER game ... where 1 DEX costs 3 CP instead of 2 CP like 6e -- making TEAMWORK a fairly expensive skill (due to its Agility categorization) for what it does.  I say this because in a low point game where movement rates are lower, it's not reliably feasible to coordinate due to cover, range-related issues, and the like on the field of battle.

[Tasha]

It's Dex based because it's used to coordinate Attacks. ie Making sure your attacks hit the target at the same time. IMHO VERY much the poster child of what should be dex based skill. Now if the group has tactics etc they use to try and gain surprise that would be an Knowledge skill. One that as a GM I MIGHT allow to be used as a complementary skill to Teamwork.

[Hyper-Man]

I agree with Tasha.  However, I think the real issue is not one of mechanics but instead one of poor naming.  There absolutely needs to be a DEX based Skill to coordinate attacks with the goal of combining damage past defenses for the purpose of Stunning a target.  Teamwork just may not be the best name for that Skill.  I have no idea what a better name might be (Combat Coordination?) but once that is figured out then a INT based Skill with other effects like Tasha's suggestion for Surprise could be assigned to the now available 'Teamwork' name.

 

HM

[Matt the Bruins]

Maybe "Small Unit Tactics" or somesuch?

[Tasha]

It's part of it's pedigree as a Superheroic Maneuver. IMHO it's of limited use in most Heroic games. Ex being Genres (ie Fantasy) that have super tough(ie High Def) opponents. I guess it's handy for multiple attacker bonuses.

[Hugh Neilson]

Those familier with the TEAMWORK skill know it to be a DEX-based Agility skill.  This has always struck me as odd, since I think of teamwork as something that's 50% strategy and 50% timing.  The timing piece would seem to be DEX-based, but I'd think the strategy portion (representing power selection, field position, and other aspects that are NOT related to time) would be INT-based.

 

Thus, I tend to think of the TEAMWORK skill as: TEAMWORK roll = 9 + [ ( (INT/5) + (DEX/5) ) / 2]

 

Do others here use house rules for TEAMWORK and, if so, would you be willing to share how you've house-ruled it ... and the rationale for why?

We could argue a lot on this one. Does every member of the team need the INT-based strategy component of the skill, or do we just need one strategic Captain America type setting tactics (INT based to determine tactics? PRE based to motivate his team?) which the team then works to coordinate towards (DEX based)? Does everyone need the Teamwork skill to follow the leader's orders, or only to coordinate their efforts to best effect?

 

No house rule for it, but I definitely understand your logic.

 

However benefiting from two attributes will inflate the skill. Perhaps if you let the player select the higher if the two?

Surrealone's formula allows each stat to have half their effect. It can be restated as 9 + [iNT/10] + [DEX/10] or 9+ [iNT+DEX]/10 or 9 + [Average of INT and DEX]/5. Allowing selection of the better stat and ignoring the other would benefit characters who have one good and one poor stat.

[Kesedrith]

It's Dex based because it's used to coordinate Attacks. ie Making sure your attacks hit the target at the same time. IMHO VERY much the poster child of what should be dex based skill. Now if the group has tactics etc they use to try and gain surprise that would be an Knowledge skill. One that as a GM I MIGHT allow to be used as a complementary skill to Teamwork.

 

This reminds me of a game I played in, in which we role played, as a team, coming up with "calls" for particular tactics. Since our tactical leader was a Braves fan, most of them were baseball terms: squeeze, bunt, go for the fence, etc. In combat, he would actually call out one of these terms, and people knew to hold actions or get ready to coordinate the attacks as appropriate. To me, that is the tactics and intelligence part of the equation.

[Ndreare]

We could argue a lot on this one. Does every member of the team need the INT-based strategy component of the skill, or do we just need one strategic Captain America type setting tactics (INT based to determine tactics? PRE based to motivate his team?) which the team then works to coordinate towards (DEX based)? Does everyone need the Teamwork skill to follow the leader's orders, or only to coordinate their efforts to best effect?

 

 

Surrealone's formula allows each stat to have half their effect. It can be restated as 9 + [iNT/10] + [DEX/10] or 9+ [iNT+DEX]/10 or 9 + [Average of INT and DEX]/5. Allowing selection of the better stat and ignoring the other would benefit characters who have one good and one poor stat.

You are right, I missed that last divided by 2.

[Lucius]

 

Teamwork is a weird Skill.

 

As I understand it is, for example, absolutely useless unless at least one OTHER person also has the Skill. Except for Languages, I can't think of any other Skill off hand like that. It's like it has an inherent "Requires Multiple Users" Limitation. Without getting the cost break.

 

And its defined game use seems ridiculously narrow. The only house rule I have used is to try to expand its scope.

 

But I don't see an issue with it being DEX based.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Teaming up with a palindromedary

[Surrealone]

It's Dex based because it's used to coordinate Attacks. ie Making sure your attacks hit the target at the same time. IMHO VERY much the poster child of what should be dex based skill. Now if the group has tactics etc they use to try and gain surprise that would be an Knowledge skill. One that as a GM I MIGHT allow to be used as a complementary skill to Teamwork.

This suggests that there's no intelligence component, at all, to TEAMWORK, and that coordination/TEAMWORK is basically no different from rolling a coin across one's knuckles (which is pure DEX aside from the mind telling the body what to do). 

 

i.e. A DEX-only basis suggests that you don't need to see your target (since PER is INT-based), or need to use your brain (also INT-based, I'd hope!) to remember and process team commands/signals to focus on a single target. 

 

Given that awareness/perception of one's compatriots, commands/signals, and the target are essential parts of coordination/TEAMWORK, can you explain your rationale regarding INT (PER?) -not- playing into coordination/TEAMWORK -- since a TEAMWORK roll tends to be used to represent all of those things in addition to the timing aspect of which you wrote?

[bigdamnhero]

An interesting point; I confess I hadn't really thought about it that much. There's definitely a strategy/tactics side of coordinating with teammates, but it seems like Tactics can address that.

This reminds me of a game I played in, in which we role played, as a team, coming up with "calls" for particular tactics. Since our tactical leader was a Braves fan, most of them were baseball terms: squeeze, bunt, go for the fence, etc. In combat, he would actually call out one of these terms, and people knew to hold actions or get ready to coordinate the attacks as appropriate. To me, that is the tactics and intelligence part of the equation.

Exactly. Only one character needs Tactics to think up what to do; everyone needs Teamwork to coordinate it.

 

As I understand it is, for example, absolutely useless unless at least one OTHER person also has the Skill. Except for Languages, I can't think of any other Skill off hand like that. It's like it has an inherent "Requires Multiple Users" Limitation. Without getting the cost break.

[nod] Which makes sense conceptually - you can't have teamwork unless you've trained together as a team - but you're not wrong about that being pretty unique among Skills. Hmmm...considering how effective Coordinated Attacks can be when they work - I can't count how many boss fights have been won that way - I don't feel like Teamwork is overpriced.

 

And its defined game use seems ridiculously narrow. The only house rule I have used is to try to expand its scope.

Yeah, per RAW its use is pretty narrow. (Tho again, really effective when used right.) We use it much more broadly, for pretty much anytime two characters are trying to work together in a meaningful way, like with Fastball Specials and the like.

 

This suggests that there's no intelligence component, at all, to TEAMWORK, and that coordination/TEAMWORK is basically no different from rolling a coin across one's knuckles (which is pure DEX aside from the mind telling the body what to do). 

i.e. A DEX-only basis suggests that you don't need to see your target (since PER is INT-based), or need to use your brain (also INT-based, I'd hope!) to remember and process team commands/signals to focus on a single target. 

 

Given that awareness/perception of one's compatriots, commands/signals, and the target are essential parts of coordination/TEAMWORK, can you explain your rationale regarding INT (PER?) -not- playing into coordination/TEAMWORK -- since a TEAMWORK roll tends to be used to represent all of those things in addition to the timing aspect of which you wrote?

I get your reasoning, but I think what you're describing is more hand-eye coordination, which falls under DEX. Sure, you need to be able to see your teammate in order to coordinate with them, but I feel like that's normally pretty trivial compared to the DEX-side of coordinating. And if there *is* a question of one character's ability to perceive their teammate well enough to coordinate, then a PER Roll might be required first.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

I personally have considered this for the entire time I have played HERO. I just think that teamwork is reasonably not DEX AT ALL. Hand-Eye coordination IMO has always been INT/PER based. Thus, I have never seen DEX as the appropriate skill for Teamwork. Think about it. 

 

When you fire a gun at the same time as someone else, most of the time you do a countdown of some sort. That eliminates the, have to time my strike perfectly, agenda. It adds to the, how fast does this gun fire and how fast does this fire?, effect, which is INT. 

 

Imagine Steiner and Vivi from Final Fantasy IX. The ability magic sword involves Vivi casting a spell upon the sword of Steiner and Steiner striking the target. That damage is done at the same time. How does that have ANYTHING to do with DEX? It has all to do with "I will cast a spell, and you will strike the target," which is INT. 

[whitekeys]

This suggests that there's no intelligence component, at all, to TEAMWORK, and that coordination/TEAMWORK is basically no different from rolling a coin across one's knuckles (which is pure DEX aside from the mind telling the body what to do). 

 

i.e. A DEX-only basis suggests that you don't need to see your target (since PER is INT-based), or need to use your brain (also INT-based, I'd hope!) to remember and process team commands/signals to focus on a single target. 

 

Given that awareness/perception of one's compatriots, commands/signals, and the target are essential parts of coordination/TEAMWORK, can you explain your rationale regarding INT (PER?) -not- playing into coordination/TEAMWORK -- since a TEAMWORK roll tends to be used to represent all of those things in addition to the timing aspect of which you wrote?

 

I personally have considered this for the entire time I have played HERO. I just think that teamwork is reasonably not DEX AT ALL. Hand-Eye coordination IMO has always been INT/PER based. Thus, I have never seen DEX as the appropriate skill for Teamwork. Think about it. 

 

When you fire a gun at the same time as someone else, most of the time you do a countdown of some sort. That eliminates the, have to time my strike perfectly, agenda. It adds to the, how fast does this gun fire and how fast does this fire?, effect, which is INT. 

 

Imagine Steiner and Vivi from Final Fantasy IX. The ability magic sword involves Vivi casting a spell upon the sword of Steiner and Steiner striking the target. That damage is done at the same time. How does that have ANYTHING to do with DEX? It has all to do with "I will cast a spell, and you will strike the target," which is INT. 

 

The problem with these arguments is that you could make them for just about anything.

 

Surrealone: Wouldn't you say there was a DEX component to a Professional Skill utilizing small tools, delicate parts, or timing of any kind (like something chemical in nature)? Or perhaps same for Demolitions or Shadowing. And as the GM, what would be the point of making someone pay for the first skill, roll it to gauge success, and THEN roll DEX to see if they did -that- part correctly? Isn't there an equal amount of INT-based skill involved in such things as Combat Piloting or Lockpicking?

 

JohnnyAppleseed098: With all due respect to your views, this seems like splitting hairs over the different functions of the human brain. You could argue there's a visual, gross-motor or fine-motor component to just about everything a human does, or that at any one point in time my Frontal or Occipital lobes are more engages than my Parietal Lobe. The reality is that many different parts of the brain work together, all the time, to enable us to do what we do, but breaking it down is way too much granularity, even for HERO. Stating that some action is perceived as being a "function of the brain" rather than a "function of our muscles", and then subsequently labeling it an INT skill rather than a DEX skill, is not only a slippery slope but also a misunderstanding of the HERO rules.

 

I don't personally see anything wrong with the idea that coordinating attacks, after you've trained with your combat partner, is a DEX-based skill as per the HERO rules representation of reality, and anything beyond that should easily be covered with the Tactics skill, or Perception or Deduction, as it were, or maybe even with a Knowledge Skill or relevant Professional Skill if you have one. Rename them if you want, that was a good suggestion.

[Surrealone]

Surrealone: Wouldn't you say there was a DEX component to a Professional Skill utilizing small tools, delicate parts, or timing of any kind (like something chemical in nature)? Or perhaps same for Demolitions or Shadowing. And as the GM, what would be the point of making someone pay for the first skill, roll it to gauge success, and THEN roll DEX to see if they did -that- part correctly? Isn't there an equal amount of INT-based skill involved in such things as Combat Piloting or Lockpicking?

I think you just presented some examples entailing false equivalence.  Let's take a look at why:

 

Lockpicking is something you can do with your eyes closed and strictly by feel (assuming a mechanical lock, of course).  Certainly there's a perceptive component to the lock and how it feels, but you can fixate on just the lock, itself, in a completely dark room, and use the tools to pick it ... regardless of the actions of anyone else (like, say, your mates).  That's almost entirely DEX.  Not 100%, but mostly.

 

Then there's Combat Piloting.  Certainly it's got a perceptive component, too -- no different from regular driving.  However the 'combat' part of it is where the action is -- the ability to perceive things like you normally would while driving and apply combat reactions to them ... and, again, we're back to mostly DEX, right?  Not 100%, but mostly ... when talking the combat part of Combat Driving that makes it worth points whereas regular driving ... isn't.

 

Now let's take Teamwork -- you can't do it by feel with just you and the target -- because you've got your mates to consider.  And it's not some scenario where you apply DEX-based combat reactions to things you'd normally do out of combat -- because you're not normally trying to work with others using signals/commands to strike something simultaneously out of combat, are you?  So with this in mind, I submit that Teamwork is pretty different.

 

In a nutshell:

In the real world, you can't coordinate with (and against) what you can't perceive (like your mates, their signals, the target, etc.).  With that in mind for our game, we're considering a house rule on this because the INT-based perception component seems so essential to Teamwork that, without it, you really don't have a skill that does much of anything.  The feeling is that a DEX-based skill only covers half of what is going on when people work together for simultaneous results -- since synchronizing timing with others entails a lot more than agility.

 

As previously noted, a Teamwork roll tends to represent not just the timing aspect of coordinating attacks, but also the signaling and reception/perception thereof entailed by a team coordinating its attacks.  With that traditional use of the skill in mind, I ask again (not just Tasha, this time) for folks to explain the rationale regarding INT (PER?) -not- playing into coordination/Teamwork. 

 

​No one's presented a valid rationale for this, yet -- unless, of course, it's being suggested that a team can coordinate just as effectively when blind and unable to communicate (since it's purely a DEX-based skill with no reliance on INT/PER ... much like rolling a coin across one's knuckles is) ... as when able to perceive and communicate normally.  I somehow doubt that anyone here is suggesting that.... but that's the literal effect of a purely DEX-based Teamwork skill that has no reliance on INT/PER ... and even our GM is wrestling with this concern.

 

If INT/PER has no bearing on Teamwork as a purely DEX-based skill, then blindness, deafness, etc. should have no bearing on a team's ability to use it -- right?  I ask because you can't really have it both ways; either INT/PER matter or they don't.  Looking at Acrobatics or Lockpicking, you can flip in place or pick a lock while blind and deaf ... with no penalty or a super minor one ... so shouldn't you be able to perform Teamwork with no penalty or a super minor one if blind and deaf, since it's solely DEX-based?

 

Tough to play both sides of this one...

[Hyper-Man]

The 'silent count' used in American football when the visiting team can't hear their quarterback due to crowd noise is essentially a form of the Teamwork being discussed. It's also worth noting that the school for the deaf fields a high school football team that plays vs hearing teams. So yes, there is some form of thinking and perception going on but DEX is still the dominant contribution. Take another group activity like band or orchestra. Having perfect pitch alone is not enough to participate. Members must also have the physical skill to create the sounds. Marching band is an internal counting (like bump of direction) much more than just watching other band members.

 

HM

[Surrealone]

The 'silent count' used in American football when the visiting team can't hear their quarterback due to crowd noise is essentially a form of the Teamwork being discussed. It's also worth noting that the school for the deaf fields a high school football team that plays vs hearing teams. So yes, there is some form of thinking and perception going on but DEX is still the dominant contribution. Take another group activity like band or orchestra. Having perfect pitch alone is not enough to participate. Members must also have the physical skill to create the sounds. Marching band is an internal counting (like bump of direction) much more than just watching other band members.

 

HM

HM -- I think you know as well as I do that if it were so easy, then the silent count would be the norm, not something used only when needed.  Likewise, if it was so easy, then every team and not just the school for the deaf would use the approach used by the school for the deaf.  Put another way -- both of your examples are outliers in which special training and/or skills are brought to bear for special circumstances -- i.e. they are not the norm to be used as a measuring stick.

 

I think we should base our discussion on norms, not outliers -- since there's always an edge case/exception/outlier, eh?  But even if we are to include those outliers, isn't counting INT-based -- and without it for the silent count, there'd be no DEX-based activity to be synchronized?

 

Surreal

 

P.S. Marching band is NOT merely internal counting as you suggest.  The percussion section sets the pace via audible means most of the time ... since it's one of the few sections that almost always marches such that it can see the conductor.  Internal counting, like your other outlier examples, is relied upon solely when the percussion section falls silent -- which is rare and short, and tends to happen at more static moments during the program (i.e. when other sections can see the conductor).  Probably most important is that regardless of whether the percussion section is active or silent, there is a drum major visually conducting the marching band at all times -- providing both visual indication of rhythm as well as cues for various sections and solos -- meaning internal counting is never, ever the sole or even primary coordinating signal for a marching band.

[whitekeys]

As previously noted, a Teamwork roll tends to represent not just the timing aspect of coordinating attacks, but also the signaling and reception/perception thereof entailed by a team coordinating its attacks.  With that traditional use of the skill in mind, I ask again (not just Tasha, this time) for folks to explain the rationale regarding INT (PER?) -not- playing into coordination/Teamwork. 

 

What seems to be a perfectly good rationale for this is that something as simple as signaling the beginning of a routine, be it marching band music, a football play, or a Coordinated Attack, doesn't require a Roll. I'm under the impression that speaking during combat usually doesn't take any time, and often takes place outside of any turn-based system, initiative order, or the like, as in funny commentary a la Flash, signature puns, or bad guy soliloquy, or whatever the case may be. Why is perceiving a signal or communicating about a plan a necessary component of a DEX-based skill, moreso than the examples I've provided already? These...

 

I think you just presented some examples entailing false equivalence.  Let's take a look at why:

 

Lockpicking is something you can do with your eyes closed and strictly by feel (assuming a mechanical lock, of course).  Certainly there's a perceptive component to the lock and how it feels, but you can fixate on just the lock, itself, in a completely dark room, and use the tools to pick it ... regardless of the actions of anyone else (like, say, your mates).  That's almost entirely DEX.  Not 100%, but mostly.

 

Then there's Combat Piloting.  Certainly it's got a perceptive component, too -- no different from regular driving.  However the 'combat' part of it is where the action is -- the ability to perceive things like you normally would while driving and apply combat reactions to them ... and, again, we're back to mostly DEX, right?  Not 100%, but mostly ... when talking the combat part of Combat Driving that makes it worth points whereas regular driving ... isn't.

 

... are not sufficient, in my opinion, to prove your point. But at the same time, I'm not arguing with you. I think if you want to change it for your group's house rules it should be fine. I just feel like its adding more complexity to it.

 

EDIT: Further to my point above, I don't consider it the traditional use of the skill to first perceive a signal, then coordinate. If anything, the tradition would be to view it as a special effect, success of the attack based on the Teamwork Roll.

[Surrealone]

Further to my point above, I don't consider it the traditional use of the skill to first perceive a signal, then coordinate. If anything, the tradition would be to view it as a special effect, success of the attack based on the Teamwork Roll.

This is exactly how I've seen Teamwork rolls used, too: the roll usually encompasses the signaling, the perception thereof, etc.

 

This brings me right back to the point of Teamwork being usable when flashed, deafened, muted, etc. (all at once) ... because there isn't actually any signaling or perception requirement associated with the use of this 100% DEX-based skill.  Therein lies the conceptual problem our group is having with it.

 

Thoughts?

[Tasha]

This reminds me of a game I played in, in which we role played, as a team, coming up with "calls" for particular tactics. Since our tactical leader was a Braves fan, most of them were baseball terms: squeeze, bunt, go for the fence, etc. In combat, he would actually call out one of these terms, and people knew to hold actions or get ready to coordinate the attacks as appropriate. To me, that is the tactics and intelligence part of the equation.

 

"Allows a character to Coordinate (page 146) attacks with others, and generally work well as part of a team. Examples include superheroes who practice team tactics in “danger room” scenarios, soldiers trained to fight as a unit, and wolves employing pack attacks against their prey." -CC pg 35

 

So the Skill's scope has increased. Though it's primary function is still Coordination very dex based to me.

 

I would still recommend that a PC have  KS Team Tactics to keep it all straight.

[Tasha]

I personally have considered this for the entire time I have played HERO. I just think that teamwork is reasonably not DEX AT ALL. Hand-Eye coordination IMO has always been INT/PER based. Thus, I have never seen DEX as the appropriate skill for Teamwork. Think about it. 

 

When you fire a gun at the same time as someone else, most of the time you do a countdown of some sort. That eliminates the, have to time my strike perfectly, agenda. It adds to the, how fast does this gun fire and how fast does this fire?, effect, which is INT. 

 

Imagine Steiner and Vivi from Final Fantasy IX. The ability magic sword involves Vivi casting a spell upon the sword of Steiner and Steiner striking the target. That damage is done at the same time. How does that have ANYTHING to do with DEX? It has all to do with "I will cast a spell, and you will strike the target," which is INT. 

The other Dex based hand eye coordination skills and the original way that OCV was tied to Dex all point to the game being designed around Hand Eye Coordination being Dex based. Intelligence/Perception rolls are really more for discovery and Memory. It's all about keeping the system internally consistant with itself than "realistic"

[whitekeys]

This is exactly how I've seen Teamwork rolls used, too: the roll usually encompasses the signaling, the perception thereof, etc.

 

This brings me right back to the point of Teamwork being usable when flashed, deafened, muted, etc. (all at once) ... because there isn't actually any signaling or perception requirement associated with the use of this 100% DEX-based skill.  Therein lies the conceptual problem our group is having with it.

 

Thoughts?

 

I don't mean any offense, but you could have doing it wrong this whole time  =P  And what i mean is that the signaling, or the way in which you coordinate, should just be a special effect of how the skill is used. Same with a lot of other things in HERO. And again, with the flashed, deafened, muted, etc... Would probably prevent you from doing a lot of things given common sense, dramatic sense, and game balance. For example, some of the ones I've mentioned, like Demolitions and Lockpicking, as well as a slough of others, would be difficult to accomplish while deaf, blind and mute (assuming your character wasn't all of these right from the get-go).

 

It's just a special effect, and issues like the ones you've raised should probably be dealt with on a case-by-case basis by the GM. In a way, I totally agree with you. You shouldn't be able to coordinate attacks if you can't see, hear, or speak to your teammates, but that doesn't mean that the skill's constitution should be changed to include something more INT-based.

[bigdamnhero]

As previously noted, a Teamwork roll tends to represent not just the timing aspect of coordinating attacks, but also the signaling and reception/perception thereof entailed by a team coordinating its attacks.  With that traditional use of the skill in mind, I ask again (not just Tasha, this time) for folks to explain the rationale regarding INT (PER?) -not- playing into coordination/Teamwork. 

 

​No one's presented a valid rationale for this, yet

I specifically addressed this several posts back:

 

Sure, you need to be able to see your teammate in order to coordinate with them, but I feel like that's normally pretty trivial compared to the DEX-side of coordinating. And if there *is* a question of one character's ability to perceive their teammate well enough to coordinate, then a PER Roll might be required first.

Once your team has trained together and established what kind of signals you're going to use, then the ability to actually notice that your teammate is counting to three or giving a certain hand gesture is hardly a significant mental challenge. Yes obviously you have to be able to perceive it, but doing so is completely trivial under normal circumstances. It's certainly no harder than noticing "Hey, someone is taking a swing at me, maybe I should block it." The ability to perceive what's going on around you is an implicit part of every combat skill (and most skills period at some level) - and yet, CV is DEX-based, not INT+DEX based. Do you really think noticing your teammate giving the "hit him now" sign is somehow more intellectually challenging than spotting that your opponent's overhand cut is just a feint and you need to be ready to parry in Octave? Again, if there's smoke or someone's blind or something that specifically makes perceiving your teammate a challenge, then that's what PER Rolls are for.

 

Lockpicking is something you can do with your eyes closed and strictly by feel (assuming a mechanical lock, of course). 

You still have to perceive what's going on, it's just Touch-based rather than Sight-based.

 

Then there's Combat Piloting.  Certainly it's got a perceptive component, too -- no different from regular driving.  However the 'combat' part of it is where the action is -- the ability to perceive things like you normally would while driving and apply combat reactions to them ... and, again, we're back to mostly DEX, right?  Not 100%, but mostly ... when talking the combat part of Combat Driving that makes it worth points whereas regular driving ... isn't.

Are you seriously arguing that dogfighting at Mach3 requires less perception that being aware of what the guy standing next to me is doing?

 

It feels like you're creating a separate standard for "noticing what my allies are doing" that is completely different from "knowing what my enemies are doing" or "noticing what my environment is doing."

[dmjalund]

CV is no longer DEX based (v6)