How to make the Villains Interesting

[Ghost who Walks]

I thought I would start this thread, since we seem to be getting a lot of people new to Hero on these boards. While many of us can remember Grond from 3rd edition, and regard hims as classic, ne players/GMs may simply see a modified "Hulk".

 

Here are some guidelines I use:

1) Who is the Bad? A big decision to make when you start, is who is going to be the big bad? Who is going to fight your players on a regular basis? Myself, I prefer to have the players fight the minor league villains at first, while the Big villains operate in the background, usually against NPC teams. don't spend to much time developing your first master villain...the players will usually smash him quick.

 

2) A Little Evil goes a long way: Villains don't have to massacre entire shopping malls to be bad. Make the villainy personal. Does the Hero have a public Id? Have the villain trash his car. Do the heroes have a team vehicle? Have VIPER steal it, along with their ice chest filled with beer in the back.

 

3) Have NPC heroes around, who get in to trouble. The players may be the greatest heroes in the cosmos, but can they fix their car? Or do they have to go somewhere? NPC heroes can liven up the game, by providing rivals, romances, and babysitters. If the players seem to enjoy a certain NPC hero, have him get captured by the villain next week.

 

4) Avoid huge supervillain teams in combat. They take forever to fight...they are best done at the conclusion of a series of scenarios, leading up to them. One or two villains is often all you need...remember they will usually be prepared, while the heroes may not know the villains powers.

 

5) Use hunteds for Paranoia: Keep a mystery going as to who the villain may be for as long as possible. Leave clues that might point to other villains, especially ones that heroes have as hunteds. The villains who are suspected may not be involved at all...

 

6) A villain is usually better at his powers than the heroes. He usually has more practice with them, since he has a "looser" code of ethics. Villains in the DC universe are a good example of this. The Heroes are usually ridiculously more powerul...but are limited by morals. The villains aren't, and are usually very good with the one or two powers they have.

 

7) Let your villains get captured. They can always break out later. If they have friends, the friends will threaten witnesses, ruining the court case. These witnesses include the hero who captured them.

 

8) Truly Psychotic villains are really only fun if your players are interested in either killing them or curing them. Never have more than one or two around at once, unless you are running a very dark campaign. Try and tie a hero into the origin of the psychotic, this will may make the player feel somewhat responsible for them. (Think Batman and Twoface)

 

9) Master plots are meant to be foiled. Make sure you provide a way to do this.

 

10) Don't hesitate to alter published villains, modify comic villains, or whatever else you have to do to keep a villain entertaining. Example: Grond has four arms. A Race in the "Terran Empire" Sourcebook has 4 arms...

 

Thats all I know, anyone else?

[Hermit]

Hmm, those are good. Others that come to mind at the moment...

 

Have your villains keep score. When the heroes take them down the first time, have the villains affected by that in ways beyond simple jail time. If the villain is the sort to hold a grudge, then let him act on it. If he's the sort to get scared, have him try to run first this time if need be. If the villain won the first encounter, play that up right as well. Is the villain going to get cocky and make a mistake? Will he gloat about last time? or try to intimidate the hero with threats of more of the same? Let the PCs know their actions matter to the villains they meet.

 

Some villains have lives outside the mask. While you don't want to turn this into a soap opera, it is possible to meet a villain in his or her secret id and get some interesting RP going. Even IN costume, you can show (if you choose) that there is more to them. Hammering the latest bank robbing spandex thug is forgetful, hammering the latest bank robbing spandex thug who also, for some reason stole a doll is memorable... especially if the villain confesses "It was for my kid, okay???"

 

Villains have psychological limtations, priorities, and yes, even patterns. Don't hand them over to the PCs first thing, but drop a few clues. PCs who are trying hard to "understand their enemy" so better to defeat him, deserve something for their efforts.

 

Find out where the villains draw the line. If there is a villain who enjoys robbing for cash, or pounding heads in, but never kills.... don't assume he'll help the OTHER villain destroy the city. It might add spice to have him reluctantly aid the heroes simply because his conscience, while not as strong as theirs, just can't sit by for THIS.

[Fireg0lem]

My 2c:

 

c1: Build rival villains like you were making your own PC. It tends to make more interesting, well-developed characters instead of just enemies. Don't do this for NPCs you are worried you'll get too attached to.

 

c2: Put in the occasional villain that will actually listen to reason, and that your players can talk out of his dastardly schemes.

[Crimson Arrow]

For me, one of the most important things is motivation. If a character is believable, they are more likely to be interesting, because you will care about them. In comic book terms, though, "believable" is a broad concept. It might just be that they are horribly annoying and delusional, but within the genre concept of "crazy loon", they fit (yes, I AM thinking of Foxbat).

 

Think about why the villain does what he or she does. Is there a moral line he won't cross? A villain who might kill for money might turn his back on a sex offender or a bigot.

 

Don't overdo the quirks. Having weird habits or interests is not the same as interesting.

 

Ghost who Walks - I think you've made some great points (as have Hermit and Fireg0lem), but I am not sure about number 6. It is certainly true sometimes (the White Martians being one example that leaps to mind). However, I think comics have also shown that heroes can be more versatile with their powers precisely because they would not use them to kill. They therefore have to find ways to use those powers to distract, disarm or incapacitate the villains without causing major injury or a loss of life.

[Lord Liaden]

Use some villains who have qualities that the heroes can actually admire. Maybe a villain will never harm innocents, possibly putting himself at risk or even joining the heroes to protect them. An otherwise dastardly villain may have a strong code of honor: never lies, always keeps his word, won't backstab or attack a helpless foe, etc. A villain may be using reprehensible means toward a noble goal: stopping illegal polluters from harming the environment, bringing justice to criminals the law can't touch, using violent tactics to bring down a corrupt and tyrannical regime, or the like.

 

Giving the players reason to have mixed feelings toward their opponents can lead to more complex relationships and more interesting roleplaying. OTOH it's satisfying to have a few villains around who are so vile that the players can stomp them without a twinge of guilt.

[Kristopher]

I never quit, do I?

 

I humbly recommend this thread for some examples of villains created with personalities and motivations.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10102

[TheEmerged]

My List

 

"What's my motivation?" While it's almost a cliche, it's also almost a point that every character (heroic or villainous) is either the hero or victim of his own story. Why is the character engaging in self-destructive acts? Do they realize it's self destructive?

 

One example here is my GM-PC, the Disruptor. He's a mega-intelligent nova (read: person with superpowers) -- one of the first in the continuity. I don't want to go too in-depth in his origin because discovering it is a subplot for the players (who are also villains)... but a one part of his motivation is that he feels he's been "cheated" out of the fame and glory that rightfully should be his. That's only one part, however, and it conflicts with other aspects.

[Vanguard00]

Just a suggestion

 

Put some time into making your villains, and try and make them from the point of view that these are your characters. Make them personal to YOU and you'll likely make them personal to the players, as well.

 

Don't forget to tie at least one hero and villain together. It doesn't matter if they were created in the same accident, know each other in secret ID, maybe one accidentally created the other...tie them together and use that tie to bring them together (not just physically, but in terms of characterisation and development).

 

Remember that villains learn, too, so make them just a wee bit smarter/tougher as time goes by.

[Mayday]

I have to add acting.

 

Some of my best GMs have been able to define a character entirely on how they speak as that character. Accent, voice inflection.... Makes an otherwise forgettable thug memorable and someone you care about beating.

 

If the GM clearly doesnt care why should I?

 

GM: (while fiddling with dice and books with a distracted look) "Ok you see the guy that you've been looking for. He goes on a 4..."

 

vs

 

GM: "Ok, Hydra turns and looks right at you (GM contorts face to maniacal snarl) and says.... "You, always you in my way you cowardly vengeance driven hypocrite. If you'd not missed your chance and failed to save that busload of kids you wouldn't continually displace your guilt and blame onto me, blame me for your failures, for the wasted life you lead. It ends here it ends now. You want me? Come get me or get out of my way." Hydra on a 4..."

[Ghost who Walks]

Ghost who Walks - I think you've made some great points (as have Hermit and Fireg0lem), but I am not sure about number 6. It is certainly true sometimes (the White Martians being one example that leaps to mind). However, I think comics have also shown that heroes can be more versatile with their powers precisely because they would not use them to kill. They therefore have to find ways to use those powers to distract, disarm or incapacitate the villains without causing major injury or a loss of life. [/b]

 

I suppose my point was that you don't need to go overboard on a villains powers to make them usable. Invisibility or Desolidification is all a thief type really needs. Since a GM may end up running multiple villains at a time, simpler powers is often better.

 

Heroes are partly there to serve as an inspiration to others. Villains aren't there to inspire anyone, that is one of their strengths. The most dangerous villains is one who CAN actually inspire other villains, and organize them effectively.

 

A lot of good stuff has been mentioned here.

[BoloOfEarth]

On the topic of villain motivation: think about how the villain sees him/herself. Few people wake up and say, "Well, it's time to be evil!" They usually have reasons for the things they do (twisted or delusional as those reasons may be). To the villains, their actions make perfect sense.

 

The suggestion on acting is bang-on, too, even as far as facial expressions. While speaking as the big baddie, look at the players as if they are beneath your notice, or vermin, or however the villain sees the heroes. A distinct voice, or cadence, or word choice also helps.

 

As to making the villains as if they are your personal characters: this has a danger, namely if the GM is so attached to "his" characters that he goes out of his way to hamstring and thwart the heroes. Yes, put as much effort into creating the villain as you would in creating your own PC. But don't get too attached to him.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by BoloOfEarth

Yes, put as much effort into creating the villain as you would in creating your own PC. But don't get too attached to him.

 

Yeah *Sniff* There comes a time you have to let go.

[MoonHunter]

some general thoughts on subject

 

1) Keep in mind the concept of "minions" hirelings. The most dangerous villian in my game is 225 points worth of skills, perks, and equipment. He is a mega-rich business from an alternate timeline. He has many of the most powerful and dangerous villians in the world on his leash because of his ruthless personality and people management abilities. He is not dangerous, but he is perceived as dangerous because of the quality of his minions.

Players: "Geeze... these are the minions.. they trashed us. Do we want to go up against their boss?"

 

2) Keep it Fresh. If you are going to have an armored mastermind, try not to make him a Dr. Destroyer or Dr. Doom rip off. He needs his own unique identity to make him/ her/ it interesting. Nothing kills a player's interest like the thought "oh. he is Dr.Doom." or "oh another Joker".

 

3) But not too Fresh. You want to make them interesting, but you need to keep it brief. If the villian has 20 pages of character history write up, how much of that will come across into the game. The players might learn the "bullet points" of the villians background, but they will never read the novel.

 

4) Make it personal. It is a small world in a supers game, so make sure the badness spills over and effects the player's personal lives.

 

5) You don't need powers to be an antagonist. And the Antagonist does not need to be the villian. One villian with tiny amounts of invisability, telekinesis, and illusion abilities, stimed a number of mighty super teams (only to be busted each time by the minimally-powered detective type). Our local's mayor office has been the biggest threat to the heroes since the draconic horde spilled through the portal. Your local police chief, media mogul, owner of newspaper, could all be dangerous foes that need to be out thought rather than simply smashed.

 

6) Sweep up your loose plot effects. Make sure that what the villian does has lingering effects. Have the heroes see the bank being repaired weeks later. Have them effected by the water rationing after the villian shrinks and steals the resevoir. If they blow up mount rushmore, have them see it on CNN the appropriations debate in congress. This will help build continuity in the world AND motivate your players against the villian and his inevitable return.

 

More to come.

[Crimson Arrow]

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

I suppose my point was that you don't need to go overboard on a villains powers to make them usable. Invisibility or Desolidification is all a thief type really needs. Since a GM may end up running multiple villains at a time, simpler powers is often better.

 

I certainly agree with both of the points you make there.

 

I think the former has something to do with the fact that most villains are proactive. They are the ones that rob the bank, steal the scientific breakthrough, blow up the UN Building, try to conquer the world. Therefore, you can have a satisfactory villain who specialises in a type of crime. The super thief with Desolidification, Invisibility, a few skills and a reasonable DEX (or DEX levels), could waltz in and out of places.

 

However, the heroes are normally reactive. One minute they are stopping a GRAB raid, the next they have been hurtled into the past and are fighting dinosaurs, then after that they are trying to work out who committed an "impossible" murder. Each calls for different skills or powers and they generally don't get to choose what challenge they face.

 

So, maybe that suggests another guideline for villains, which is that, to make them interesting, you need to give them something more than the "bare bones" of the Powers and Skills they need to fit their modus operandi. You are right that simpler powers are better, as the GM has a lot to do, so perhaps it must be something distinctive about their crimes.

 

For example, it's a thief who specialises in stealing gems, or antique toys, a terrorist who likes to use his RKA to snipe at civillians or contaminates water supplies, or a conqueror who uses robot troops or demons from Dimension X.

 

The specialism helps to define them and makes them more interesting. Just a thought and certainly one that won't always apply.

[Crimson Arrow]

I didn't quite take my last post to its conclusion.

 

The specialism also helps the GM to use the villain in a plot.

 

For example, if the heroes learn that "The Master Poisoner" is threatening the city, they know to check out ventilation ducts, water supplies, etc.

 

If someone has been shot with a laser from the top of a tower, an almost impossible shot; they know to look for "Target". Unless of course, someone is framing him...

[zornwil]

I only glanced through and it seems people hit tons of high points. I have just a small thing to add, sometimes it is helpful to have a picture. You don't have to be an artist (but it helps), you can get by with Google searches and minor editing, at least sometimes.

[farik]

If you really want to throw the players for a loop have a villain who learns from his mistakes. If the players stopped the villains blackmail scheme by blowing up his transoloescope. Then have him build a new one in a more secure location. Have characters face the same problem but have the old solution taken away. Now don't overdo this either because if it happens too often the players may feel the only way to stop the villain is to kill them (of course this may be when the villains more competent heir steps out of the shadows with just as many resources and a fresh dose of vengeance running through their viens).

[ZootSoot]

Re: How to make the Villains Interesting

 

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

I thought I would start this thread, since we seem to be getting a lot of people new to Hero on these boards. While many of us can remember Grond from 3rd edition, and regard hims as classic, ne players/GMs may simply see a modified "Hulk".

 

Here are some guidelines I use:

1) Who is the Bad? A big decision to make when you start, is who is going to be the big bad? Who is going to fight your players on a regular basis? Myself, I prefer to have the players fight the minor league villains at first, while the Big villains operate in the background, usually against NPC teams. don't spend to much time developing your first master villain...the players will usually smash him quick.

 

Also, don't make your villains , generally (preferably ever, but some people are hung up on this), evil. Nothing gets tired faster than characters whose motivations are senseless. Rather than have the big villains being opposed by NPCs to start with (a sure way to make your players feel like a side show) have their early moves be subtle and non-criminal and built up their plans simultaneously with your players gaining experience so that both are ripe at approximately the same time.

 

2) A Little Evil goes a long way: Villains don't have to massacre entire shopping malls to be bad. Make the villainy personal. Does the Hero have a public Id? Have the villain trash his car. Do the heroes have a team vehicle? Have VIPER steal it, along with their ice chest filled with beer in the back.

 

Bad guys as members of a rival frat? Villains shold not be primarily interested in attracting the heroes' attention; that is counterproduictive. Instead they should be pursuing their own goals, which as GM you can tailor to intersect with the pcs' own.

 

3) Have NPC heroes around, who get in to trouble. The players may be the greatest heroes in the cosmos, but can they fix their car? Or do they have to go somewhere? NPC heroes can liven up the game, by providing rivals, romances, and babysitters. If the players seem to enjoy a certain NPC hero, have him get captured by the villain next week.

 

4) Avoid huge supervillain teams in combat. They take forever to fight...they are best done at the conclusion of a series of scenarios, leading up to them. One or two villains is often all you need...remember they will usually be prepared, while the heroes may not know the villains powers.

 

5) Use hunteds for Paranoia: Keep a mystery going as to who the villain may be for as long as possible. Leave clues that might point to other villains, especially ones that heroes have as hunteds. The villains who are suspected may not be involved at all...

 

6) A villain is usually better at his powers than the heroes. He usually has more practice with them, since he has a "looser" code of ethics. Villains in the DC universe are a good example of this. The Heroes are usually ridiculously more powerul...but are limited by morals. The villains aren't, and are usually very good with the one or two powers they have.

 

DC comics do not translate well into the games. Symbolic/ideal rules have real physical force in DC, one can accomodate this in a game only by railroading the players. It gts tiresome fast.

 

7) Let your villains get captured. They can always break out later. If they have friends, the friends will threaten witnesses, ruining the court case. These witnesses include the hero who captured them.

 

If you don't want your players to grow so frustrated that they start "accidentally" killing the bad guys, make the justice system fairly reliable and keep the prison break-outs down to a bare minimum. Also, while the recurring villains are a comic staple, inexplicably unbeatable villains who keep coming back in a game can be very annoying for the players.

 

8) Truly Psychotic villains are really only fun if your players are interested in either killing them or curing them. Never have more than one or two around at once, unless you are running a very dark campaign. Try and tie a hero into the origin of the psychotic, this will may make the player feel somewhat responsible for them. (Think Batman and Twoface)

 

9) Master plots are meant to be foiled. Make sure you provide a way to do this.

 

The big secret to doing this isn't in preparing a method by which the villain's plans can be unhinged (after all the way you want him beat may not fit within the players' viewpoint), it is allowing the best plan the players come up with the be workable (not that it will necessarily work, but their ideas be appropriate even if this involves considerable transformation of the npcs plans and powers to do so).

 

10) Don't hesitate to alter published villains, modify comic villains, or whatever else you have to do to keep a villain entertaining. Example: Grond has four arms. A Race in the "Terran Empire" Sourcebook has 4 arms...

 

Thats all I know, anyone else?

 

Good stuff.

[Kristopher]

Re: Re: How to make the Villains Interesting

 

Originally posted by ZootSoot

DC comics do not translate well into the games. Symbolic/ideal rules have real physical force in DC, one can accomodate this in a game only by railroading the players. It gts tiresome fast.

 

Could you expand on that for me? I'm curious as to what you mean.

[ZootSoot]

Re: Re: Re: How to make the Villains Interesting

 

Originally posted by Kristopher

Could you expand on that for me? I'm curious as to what you mean.

 

Well, for example, in DC Hell is a place with a zip code and a civic government. Good always triumphs. The Amazo Android literally has all the powers of the Justice League regardless of who is in that membership (and when the League was disbanded it had no powers at all). Essentially, in the big DC plots there is only one possible solution and it generally involves working with these sorts of "meta" rules and until the heroes figure out this approach nothing works. That's fine in a comic, the heroes figure things out when the writer wants them to; in a game, the players figure it out way too early to allow the story to work (the most common outcome; GMs who want the story to work out must alter the basic idea of what they have been doing, a players will see things being switched around and it will upset them), they fail to come up with the solution at all (the GM has to give them the solution if the story is to continue, and the players will resent this), or the players figure it out very slowly (and the GM has to retard the story in a number of awkward, silly and obvious ways and the players will resent this). Plus, this approach means that if the players' clever solution isn't the one, it won't work. Also, bnecause of the nature of the DC universe, players know that they have to come up with a "clever" solution, again and again and again.

[death tribble]

One of the other ways to throw things for a loop is have a villain turn up who insists that the heroes are the real villains and demand that they surrender.

 

Or follow the example of Spiderman. No matter how he tries he usually gets pasted by the press as a bigger menace than the villains. And villains can take advantage of this.

 

Have a look at the story of the Confessor in Astro City and heroes being banned for another take.