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On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 3:48 PM, RDU Neil said:

tl;dr  Looking for alt rules/house rules that make guns and gun combat in Hero more realistically dangerous in comparison to HtH, muscle powered weapons and movement in the normal Hero rules.

 

Well, no one appears to spend much time in the Dark Champs Genre board, but I'll try here to see if I can get any opinions.

 

1) Running a cinematic "real world" game... think Jason Bourne meets X-Files type of thing.

2) While characters might be a touch " over the top" in some ways, stats are within the Heroic level, combat should feel dangerous and not something to be taken lightly.

3) Martial arts and muscle powered weapons exist, but guns should be more likely, because of all the real world reasons... easier to use, faster, more efficient, more reliable, keeps you out of HtH range, etc.

 

The problem is, Hero is based on more generic superhero combat, where every attack is equal. Punching someone, lightning blast, mental drain or shooting a gun are equivalent in the amount of time they take per action (phase). This is TOTALLY FINE FOR SUPERS. But more realistic level, classic Danger International or current Dark Champs heroic combat... it just doesn't feel right.

 

An average person can walk across the room and haul back with a baseball bat and swing in the time another average person draws a pistol and shoots one time. That kind of thing just doesn't feel right, as two equal opponents in that scenario, most likely the pistol guy will get three to five rounds off before the other guy gets halfway across the room, let alone pull back and swing.


A competent law enforcement type can empty a ten round clip from her Glock into a human target at twenty feet while closing at a steady walk. Assuming no fumbling, reload and fire again.

 

I'm not talking John Wick or anything close to that level of crazy gun-fu... but just that there is a reason semi-automatic pistols are a way more popular sidearm than a revolver. They throw more rounds down field, faster, more accurately (for rapid fire), let alone being easier to reload, etc. Even the most basic trained shooting defense course tends to be "three shots, center mass... breath... repeat."

 

Also, in gun fights, people fire multiple rounds (multiple pulls of the trigger) in seconds, clips expended, as part of standard procedure. I'm not talking panicked blazing away, but several controlled pulls of the trigger at a time... not because they are highly skilled, but because the gun is designed to allow (target fire fire fir, reaquire fire fire fire, etc.)

 

How can we reflect this in Hero? Unfortunately, the base game allows identical character 1 to go from flat footed to 6 meters in the way in the time it takes identical character 2 to pull the trigger once. (Both are 1/2 moves.) That is ludicrous and eliminates one of the fundamental advantages of a firearm. Also, firing multiple rounds is either not allowed, or at HUGE minuses that single shots tend to be the case without significant skills/skill levels.

 

And the ability to do this should not be a series of expensive Rapid Attack skill sets, or whatever, either. This isn't special training, but basic maneuvers. It probably takes way more skill to learn to throw an adequate (not great, adequate) punch, compared to firing three times center mass with a SigSauerP226, yet punching is a free combat maneuver and firing the gun requires 2 Pt Weapon Fam and I'll be at -4 per shot (if the old multiple attack rules still in effect).  Guns are easier than punching, but we make it harder for characters.

 

Again, I get why this is from a "supers... all attacks are equivalent" level... but what is the best way to create some basic "Heroic level" rules that better simulate gun combat (easer, faster to fire, and you tend to want to fire multiple rounds at a time). 

 

Are there any optional rules out there? Does anyone have any house rules they like?

 

Thanks for any insights, especially from those of you out there who actually know guns and firing techniques.

 

I highly recommend that you use the MHI rules for firearms.  The Monster Hunter International setting for HERO has a list of firearms maneuvers that really help the game, especially the Multifire rules which make pistols far more useful than in the base game.

 

The book series by Larry Correia is also excellent too.

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34 minutes ago, grandmastergm said:

 

I highly recommend that you use the MHI rules for firearms.  The Monster Hunter International setting for HERO has a list of firearms maneuvers that really help the game, especially the Multifire rules which make pistols far more useful than in the base game.

 

The book series by Larry Correia is also excellent too.

 

I will check it out. Thanks!

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On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:21 AM, Old Man said:

Knife fighting just does not translate to unarmed combat at all, because it opens up the whole body to crippling injury.  Bad guy throws a punch, you can put up a forearm to take the blow.  Do that against a knife and now you have an impairing arm injury and there's blood everywhere and it's yours ohmigod ohmigod.

Knife fighting translates just fine to unarmed combat styles that entail grabbing and controlling one's opponent while countering.

 

For example, here's Krav Maga against an overhand slash with a knife:

 

For exampl

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The problem is, there is a huge difference between single technique practice and actual knife defense situations. Not saying training those single techniques is without merit, but, for example, if all things are equal, there are knife responses to the defense above that will cut the defender after the block. As soon as you are in contact, the knife is very close to you, and a trained knife fighter is capable of angling that knife into the blocking limb.

 

Most people who train knife extensively seem to agree that getting cut is a high likelihood, even in situations where the defender succeeds.

 

Essentially, assuming two equals facing off(which, training wise, should always be one's assumption), one of those equals has longer reach and a razor sharp weapon, and so has an advantage. Further, the knife wielder does not need to commit nearly as deeply as the example above shows, literally they only need to get the edge or point to intersect with almost any part of their opponent. People will tend to cut the leading extremity long before they commit to an overhand stab if they feel they are 'facing off' against someone at all prepared, some people will leave the knife in their rear hand, and because of the nature of a decent knife, they need not commit nearly as much force as an empty hand strike to cause damage, and so can play a much more conservative game than is possible for the person without a weapon.

 

Historically, the styles that techniques that that exact technique came from(not meaning krav maga, those techniques are older than it) taught empty hand as a last resort against weapons for a reason.

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48 minutes ago, TheDarkness said:

Essentially, assuming two equals facing off(which, training wise, should always be one's assumption), one of those equals has longer reach and a razor sharp weapon, and so has an advantage. Further, the knife wielder does not need to commit nearly as deeply as the example above shows, literally they only need to get the edge or point to intersect with almost any part of their opponent.

I am wrestling with your assumption.  Key to this is:
"Assuming two equals" .... followed by "one of those equals has a longer reach and a razor sharp weapon" ... means your assumption is invalid and they aren't equals ... since one is armed and has more reach than the other (i.e. hardly equal).

Care to give us a scenario where we actually have two equals?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Surrealone said:

I am wrestling with your assumption.  Key to this is:
"Assuming two equals" .... followed by "one of those equals has a longer reach and a razor sharp weapon" ... means your assumption is invalid and they aren't equals ... since one is armed and has more reach than the other (i.e. hardly equal).

Care to give us a scenario where we actually have two equals?

 

 

 

Equals in skill.

 

To be clear, moves like that in krav maga are most likely by way of things like aikido, judo, and karate, whose techniques are well known to be implemented into krav maga. The fact is, similar techniques were developed in Western sources, but approaches teaching such in the West died out and, until recently, were not practiced, and even then, mostly it is armed techniques that fell out of use that are trained most in groups like hema. Given that the technique above is a common variation found in Japanese styles, and since krav maga teachers generally are open about the influences of the Japanese styles to krav maga, it is most likely that it came to krav maga from those sources, as boxing and modern wrestling don't.

 

Essentially, it came to krav maga by way of samurai arts, and those sorts of techniques were always looked at as a far distant second best from having a weapon.

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An example of what the key problem in that video is, and is directly tied to the habit of failing to train against a skilled opponent versus unskilled, is that the knife wielder literally drops his free hand on every attack. If that doesn't occur, the defender's technique would not occur as it is in the video, and that is a mistake that someone with even meager skill would not be guaranteed to make, and someone trained would certainly not make under most circumstances.

 

Aside from the attacker dropping their guard, it's a technique I think everyone I know who has trained martial arts has trained, but the ones with the most knife experience consider it to be last resort in usage, that's been my experience, so I'll default to them. If the attacker drops their guard, yes, take advantage of it, but this is kind of why technique videos against knife are not the same as evidence for how it goes in a real situation, it's a training drill where the person on the receiving end knows exactly what is coming against an attacker is basically doing one attack and then is done, that's a stark difference from reality.

 

Is it worth training such? Sure.

 

Is it a reflection of reality? Of course not, it is scripted for safety. It has to be.

 

Basically, empty hand against knife drills are sort of like practicing explaining why one needs to buy something borderline unnecessary to their spouse. The practice may pay off, but one should not be surprised when the plan doesn't survive contact with reality.

 

 

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Here are the optional maneuvers:

 

Maneuver            Phase OCV DCV Effects
Multifire               1          -2     -2      Use multiple shots to increase the DCs of the Firearm, only with non-autofire weapon (for every "hit" as if it were an autofire                                                                 attack, add +1 DC)
Precise Autofire 1          var    ½      Gain bonuses to hit single target once with Autofire (for instance +1 to +5 if you have auotofire 5)
Rapid Fire            1          -2/x   ½     Shoot one or more targets multiple times (works like multiattack and rapid autofire)
Ricocheted Shot ½         var    +0    Use CSLs to “bounce” a shot to hit protected target
Snap Shot            1          -1      +0    Lets character duck back behind cover after shooting
Strafe                    ½        -v/6    -2     Make Ranged attack while moving
Suppression Fire  1        -2       +0 Continuous fire on area, only with autofire weapon

 

Consult pages 204-205 of the MHI Handbook for details

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Precise Autofire I see as really good. You can only hit once, but spend rounds to get better chance to hit once.


These are good, and basically ones I'm using, but nice to have some "official" versions.


Thanks!

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On 4/2/2018 at 1:11 PM, Surrealone said:

Knife fighting translates just fine to unarmed combat styles that entail grabbing and controlling one's opponent while countering.

 

For example, here's Krav Maga against an overhand slash with a knife:

 

 

Pfft.  I can defend against a dude with a rubber knife who isn't actually trying to stab me.

 

If I had a knife, and I'm trying to cut Krav Maga Guy here, I swing at his arm.  You don't use these big overhand stabs, you slash at him quickly.  Slash at whatever he puts out in front of his body.

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On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 11:43 AM, massey said:

 

Pfft.  I can defend against a dude with a rubber knife who isn't actually trying to stab me.

 

If I had a knife, and I'm trying to cut Krav Maga Guy here, I swing at his arm.  You don't use these big overhand stabs, you slash at him quickly.  Slash at whatever he puts out in front of his body.

You can't judge a style by just one maneuver or by a tutorial.  Krav Maga has other maneuvers appropriate for fast slashing knife attacks, too, and you can search for this on youtube, yourself, if you want to see examples/tutorial.  My point was that It's a martial style intended for military use to counter common attacks military people might experience -- which includes pistol threats, knife attacks, and the like.  If it wasn't effective for its intended purposes ....  it wouldn't still be taught.

Surreal

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On 4/5/2018 at 11:43 AM, massey said:

 

Pfft.  I can defend against a dude with a rubber knife who isn't actually trying to stab me.

 

If I had a knife, and I'm trying to cut Krav Maga Guy here, I swing at his arm.  You don't use these big overhand stabs, you slash at him quickly.  Slash at whatever he puts out in front of his body.

You brought up a thorny issue dealing with knife attacks and attacks in general. Back in the day, when I trained, the Fillapeno knife fighting was all the rage. “Whose going to attack you overhand or straight thrust?”” I’m going to slash and do this”. Well I’m not sure of the exact FBI stats (and of course the stats are based on reporting so  there is an inherent inaccuracy) but you are a more likely to be attacked with a hammer than a gun and if it’s a knife attack, then it’s going to be a kitchen knife or steak knife. Guess what? The attacks will probably be either over hand or a straight thrust?  And it’s almost always against a non-knife fighter.

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On 3/13/2018 at 3:19 PM, RDU Neil said:

 

 

 

I totally understand that some would be better at it than others. Training and practice will make someone more accurate, likely to hit with more rounds/miss less, fire more, reload faster, etc. It is just that I feel that guns, semi-automatics and select-fire automatics on burst, should be able to "pull the trigger" more than once every combat action... by default.

 

Again, limited knowledge and experience, but say a shotgun, with the recoil and pump action, is probably once per round and it would take an actual skill/training to fire twice or more. A revolver, I could see two, maybe three shots max due to kick and slower cycling to the next round. Semi-automatic pistol, five shots easy, though accuracy drops rapidly the more rounds you fire.  3 round burst fire, two pulls (two bursts) easily, maybe three.

 

Yes, this makes guns much more dangerous than other weapons... but that is reality, which i want to simulate more often.

 

Serious question, Surrealone... based on our experience... do you train single shots for combat firing, or multiple shots (again with a semi-automatic)? More shots are better than one, up to a point, where you are just firing wild... that middle ground of rapid, but controlled fire. What do you think?

 

I used to be a pretty good shot, in competition.   Set, brace, reach out 200 to 600 yards.  

A couple years ago i was trying out a hottish loaded 45-70.  Not even trying for a small target, at 270 lbs, it took me around 3 seconds to get a second shot off.   Avtually there is no way i am speed 4, more like 2, so...

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On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 5:14 PM, RDU Neil said:

 

These are all good, and I've used some of them before.

1. Resolve at half-action I like, though because of my unique initiative system (I hate the SPD chart with a passion) combat is already faster and it is more unlikely that actions overlap... but I think I'll focus on the next combat and see if this applicable.

2. Hipshot doesn't really apply with my initiative system, or at least would have minimum effect... I'll have to dig out 5th Ed and read Hurry.

3. At the levels of my game, -3 and 1/2 DCV are not too far off, better for some, worse for others, so I'll probably leave it as is.

4. Already definitely use Hit Locations to the max utility.

5. The "best of the best" characters in my campaign take PSLs vs. Hit Location in order to almost always be taking head shots (or whatever they want to hit). PSLs are probably too cheap for the effect, but eh...

 

Good suggestions all, thanks!

What is your initiative system?  I would be interested.

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17 hours ago, starblaze said:

What is your initiative system?  I would be interested.

 

The initiative system boils down to "Roll a d6 and Add it to your SPD stat... highest number goes first... get a high enough roll, you could get more than one action"

 

That is the tl-dr of it. Bit more explanation...

 

  1. SPD still costs the same, but every character gets an action every round (Actions per Round is the basic terminology and roughly four rounds would be equivalent of a 12 Segment Turn on the Speed Chart)
  2. Each round starts with "Roll for initiative! Each player rolls a d6, GM rolls one for all NPCs (or could roll for each, but that is often too much, as the SPD of different NPCs differentiates enough in most instances) adds the die roll to their SPD.
  3. then ask "Ok... who is highest? And people call out their numbers and the player (or NPC) with the highest roll goes first. If two or more are on the same initiative, highest DEX goes first, if DEX is same, DEX off (roll Dex rolls and person who makes it by the most goes first)
  4. So, say the highest was a 10, they say their action, then I say "Nines? Eights?" etc. and we count down. Once all actions taken... "Ok... next round. Roll for it."

 

From playing with this for close to 20 years, our play group likes it a LOT more, because everyone has an action, the higher SPD has an advantage, but is not hogging all the limelight while the lower SPDs twiddle their thumbs. We noticed, and this was over years, with many groups, that the SPD chart had serious negatives: a herky-jerky aspect, the "always act on the same phase" predictability, and the "not my phase, I tune out" aspect... not to mention combats just seemed to GRIND. We didn't like. I came up with this and we play tested and modified it, and the players love it. Everyone watches everyone else when they initiatize (not a word, but we use it anyway).  All rolls are out in the open, so they are looking at the GM roll to see if the badguys are fast or slow this round, etc. The fact that everyone has an action, and anyone could be the first to act, keeps everyone focused on the game, etc.

 

Now... for super-speeds...

 

  1. We quickly understood that everyone having an action each round was good for play, but what about characters whose powers reflected super speed or were just much faster than normal humans?  I created and we tested the "Second Action" concept and it works pretty well. 
  2. If your TOTAL (SPD plus initiative roll) is 11 or higher... you get a second action. After every other action is taken, I ask "Any second actions?" and then the countdown starts again.
  3. This means that you need at LEAST a SPD of 5 to have the possibility of getting a second action, and a SPD of 10 to guarantee a second action. So it isn't (usually) guaranteed or predictable, but is significant when it happens.
  4. We pushed the boundaries, and allowed for a possible 3rd action with a 17 or higher (requires an 11 SPD to have a chance), and basically ruled that every increment of 6 got you another action.

 

The results were predominantly used for superhero games, and what we saw in general were two things... we actually had 4 SPD Bricks or other slower types, and they were just fine. We saw dexy types inch up from 6 to 7 as the most common SPD. We found that the percentage chance increase of each point of SPD seemed about right... 5's felt lucky to get an extra action... sixes seemed like 1 out of 3 rounds, yeah feels good... 7's getting a 50/50 chance... ok, you are FAST!

 

Specific play results we saw... players who had a second action used it to their advantage, as they should. They were able to go all out, knowing they had an abort action to dodge or block waiting... or vice versa... play defensive, knowing they were going to have a clean opening with their second action. They also knew just how dangerous it was when the opponent had a second action against their one. It plays out in a sense of combat flow... sometimes you have advantage, some times you are on your heels, giving combat a really dynamic feel. Our one, hard core gamist in the group definitely knows the advantages of a second action... but the abuse at least SEEMS way less than when a classic 6 SPD vs. a 4 or 5 on the SPD chart has a guaranteed free action or two every turn. The fact that sometimes the 3 SPD thugs roll a 6 and the 6 SPD martial artist rolls a 1 is a great shift in the combat flow, so players are paying attention and fights, at least for us, become more organic and flowing, and less mechanical and herky-jerky.

 

At Heroic levels, PCs still tend to take 4 SPDs vs. 2-3 normals... and with my current game, we've had a couple 5 SPDs (which I did some research on reaction times in combat and simulated combat situations, and some of the elite, best of the best, doing moving live-fire targeting runs through "Hogans Alley" type of things, clearly mapped to 5 SPDs... getting roughly five actions over twelve seconds between half-moves firing, reloading, etc.)   The 5 SPD in our Heroic Games is really "Special" and when it gets a second action, it is really powerful, but the odds are still low, so it doesn't unbalance the game.

 

I think that covers it. I'm not saying it is for every group, but we'd never go back to the SPD chart for our games.

 

 

 


 

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I will add that in this time, we've had 2 distinctive Speedster PCs. Arcsilver had a 9 SPD, resulting in a lot of lightning burst, zig-zag flying all over the battlefield. Very fast but not always going twice.  Speedball had a 10 SPD. A more traditional power set, running, vibro-desol, wall and water running, etc. Even with guaranteed two actions, he never felt over powered, and putting 90 points out of a 400 (4th and 5th ed charcter) meant something, in that he lacked in other places. (I have been blessed with excellent players who understand "character building" and not "pile of points combat building" in terms of actual play, so that helps, too.)

 

I'm not saying that there isn't some way to break this system, only that it hasn't happened in nearly two decades of actual play, and that is about the best you can expect from RPG mechanics. There have been moments/games that were tilted heavily based on initiative rolls going heavily one way or another, but that was generally fine, as it swings both ways and tends to be pretty stable.


It has been the general unpredictability that makes it work. Sure, you have a six and they are thugs... but you can't be sure. You can't map out five moves, because you know exactly what phases and segments other will be moving in. Each round is new, and can shift momentum. Less chance of snowballing a mathematical advantage into inevitability.

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