Penetrating RKA Cheese

[Stelknecht]

I was thinking today about Penetrating. Not too expensive an advantage, although GM Flagged to avoid the smelly cheese I'm about to slice. 

RKA, 1 point, Autofire (160 shots, +3), Penetrating (+1/2). 22 points, 2 End. 

 

Am I right in thinking this would cause 160 minimum damage by RAW? Even if you had to upgrade to 1d6 it's still only 67 points. Not planning on spreading this gooey stinky cheese anywhere but sometimes I like to look at things I'll never consume. 

[massey]

Won’t work.  First, you count the Body on the dice roll (0 is 0, 2-5 is 1, 6 is 2) to determine how much gets through.  So your 1 pip attack Penetrates 0.

 

Second, there’s no way you’ll hit with all those autofire attacks.

[Stelknecht]

Ah, I see, I found the rule. 1 hit per 2 points of success on the attack roll, but a very minimal bonus to hit, so at even OCV/DCV, you'd hit with maybe 1-2 projectiles per burst. Good balancer. Even with a dozen skill levels in Autofire, you'd still only hit a half a dozen times. 

 

[sentry0]

6 minutes ago, Stelknecht said:

Ah, I see, I found the rule. 1 hit per 2 points of success on the attack roll, but a very minimal bonus to hit, so at even OCV/DCV, you'd hit with maybe 1-2 projectiles per burst. Good balancer. Even with a dozen skill levels in Autofire, you'd still only hit a half a dozen times. 

 

 Also, that END cost is per shot.  360 END would likely put the user straight into a coma ?

[Duke Bushido]

Stop this madness! 

 

Stoo it before you craft the Harbinger of Justice all over again! 

 

 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

It's not efficient against people, you're better off with a AVAD RKA that Does Body if you just want massive BODY counts. 

What your construct does do cheesetastically well is shred focuses.  Each hit that deals BODY removes a power from the focus, so a decent roll will outright obliterate any breakable focus without Hardened defenses. 

[BoloOfEarth]

The PCs in my Champions campaign are currently investigating the recent spread of "Nano-Flechette" guns among local punks:

 

RKA 1d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Penetrating (2x; +1), No Range Modifier (+1/2), 4 Clips of 30 Charges (+1/2); OAF (-1).  52 AP, 26 RP.

 

So even the heroes with Impenetrable rPD are at risk.  Give one of the punk's friends a net grenade (AoE 2m Radius, Transparent Entangle) to drop the target to 0 DCV, and you're talking major threat.

 

(FYI, the weapon's designer built in a failsafe to be able to disable them remotely so they can't be used against his people.  If the heroes figure this out, they can shut down the threat.)

[BoloOfEarth]

5 hours ago, massey said:

Won’t work.  First, you count the Body on the dice roll (0 is 0, 2-5 is 1, 6 is 2) to determine how much gets through.  So your 1 pip attack Penetrates 0.

 

Not true.  Read the rule on Penetrating:

 

Quote

A 1-point Killing Attack does 1 BODY Penetrating; a half die of Killing Attack does 1 BODY if it rolls a 4, 5, or 6 (minimum of 1 point); a Killing Attack that adds +1 to the dice rolled doesn’t get any extra benefit if it’s Penetrating.

 

That seems counter-intuitive - a 1-point Penetrating KA is better than an half-die KA.  But it is spelled out specifically. 

[massey]

If that’s the case, then it’s been changed in 6th.

[BoloOfEarth]

30 minutes ago, massey said:

If that’s the case, then it’s been changed in 6th.

 

Yep. I forgot to attribute the quote I provided.  It was from 6E1:342.

 

Edit to add:  Nope, it was in 5th as well.  On 5ER:256 it says exactly the same thing, word for word.  4th edition, however, does not say that.

[Matt the Bruins]

Reads to me like that minimum of 1 point means that if it's a single half d6 rather than x 1/2d6, you're still guaranteed to do one point of penetrating damage regardless of the roll, but if it's something like a 3 1/2d6 attack you have to roll 4-6 to get the extra point added to the total from the three full dice.

[massey]

53 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

Yep. I forgot to attribute the quote I provided.  It was from 6E1:342.

 

Edit to add:  Nope, it was in 5th as well.  On 5ER:256 it says exactly the same thing, word for word.  4th edition, however, does not say that.

 

I had to go to the book because I was just scratching my head about this.  The paragraph you quoted is there, but I think they mean something else.  It's poorly written, but if we go to the top of the paragraph:

 

With Killing Attacks, the presumption is that Penetrating applies to the BODY damage, but a character can apply it to the STUN instead.  A 1-point Killing Attack does 1 BODY Penetrating; a half die of Killing Attack does 1 BODY if it rolls a 4, 5, or 6 (minimum of 1 point); a Killing Attack that adds +1 to the dice rolled doesn’t get any extra benefit if it’s Penetrating.

 

As I read it, the second paragraph of that sentence should begin with "If the character chooses to do this, then a 1-point Killing Attack..."  It seems as though that paragraph is talking about applying STUN instead of BODY.  So your 1-point RKA Penetrating counts as always rolling 1 BODY, to Penetrate through 1 STUN to the target, just like a 1D6 Normal Attack would.

 

That's the way I'm going to interpret it anyway.  It's a very strangely worded rule.  Still no idea why a 1/2D6 attack is across the board worse, though.

[BoloOfEarth]

You're free to interpret it that way if you wish.  However, since the 5E Equipment Guide has the following listed in the Utility Belt, I think the intent is that a 1-point KA with Penetrating will get 1 BODY through:

 

Laser Torch: RKA 1 point, Penetrating (x2; +1); OAF (-1), No Range (-½), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 5 Minutes (battery, easy to replace; -½)

 

Otherwise, it seems an awful lot of Advantage just to get 1 STUN through.  Especially on something that's probably being used on an inanimate object.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

13 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

Yep. I forgot to attribute the quote I provided.  It was from 6E1:342.

 

Edit to add:  Nope, it was in 5th as well.  On 5ER:256 it says exactly the same thing, word for word.  4th edition, however, does not say that.

 

Let's not mince words - the "1 pip penetrating is always penetrating" is simply a bad rule.  The fact that it has survived multiple editions does not make it a better rule.

 

To me, the rule should be "for +1 point, roll a d6.  That one point will be penetrating only on a 6".  That avoids the 1 pip being better than 1/2d6 and averaging like 1d6.  You want 1 point penetrating guaranteed, buy 1d6 and apply standard effect.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Let's not mince words - the "1 pip penetrating is always penetrating" is simply a bad rule.  The fact that it has survived multiple editions does not make it a better rule.

 

To me, the rule should be "for +1 point, roll a d6.  That one point will be penetrating only on a 6".  That avoids the 1 pip being better than 1/2d6 and averaging like 1d6.  You want 1 point penetrating guaranteed, buy 1d6 and apply standard effect.

I'd personally go with "1 pip and 1d3 count in all ways as if they were results from 1d6".  A 1 is no NDB however you come about it, a 2 or 3 is one NDB no matter how you come across it.  Consistency makes everything easier on newcomers. 

If this means 1 pip penetrating isn't penetrating, fine.  A minimum cost threshold isn't a bad thing. 

[BoloOfEarth]

On 12/29/2018 at 11:01 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

Let's not mince words - the "1 pip penetrating is always penetrating" is simply a bad rule.  The fact that it has survived multiple editions does not make it a better rule.

 

I happen to agree with this sentiment.  I was just quoting the RAW, and responding to Massey's assertion that this was new to 6th edition. 

 

In my own campaign, I use a minimum of 1d6 KA if I want a Penetrating advantage to generate any BODY damage.