I have a horrible confession to make . . .

[Brian Stanfield]

@drunkonduty I love the “tough guy” image that you used!

[drunkonduty]

I saw it and knew I wanted to use it, just had to find a place I could make it fit.

[Brian Stanfield]

Ok, so here's the converse question to my original post: What should I avoid teaching in the first game or two?

• Endurance: I'm just not going to bother at first. We'll likely play a heroic level game anyway, so it may not matter as much.
• Knockback/Knockdown: It's fun, but I'm not worried about it yet.
• Hit locations: Again, they're fun, but just maybe not in the first couple of games.

What else am I forgetting to forget?

[Toxxus]

1 hour ago, Brian Stanfield said:

Ok, so here's the converse question to my original post: What should I avoid teaching in the first game or two?

• Endurance: I'm just not going to bother at first. We'll likely play a heroic level game anyway, so it may not matter as much.
• Knockback/Knockdown: It's fun, but I'm not worried about it yet.
• Hit locations: Again, they're fun, but just maybe not in the first couple of games.

What else am I forgetting to forget?

 

Especially for heroic level games I think hit locations are great.  I've found my players like a visceral, cinematic description of what their attack to a specific body part does in game.

 

In last night's game a guy landed a critical normal damage attack (gauntleted fist, growth spell active) to a hobgoblin's arm which was enough to stun it and injure the arm severely.  Whole table laughed at the idea of the hobgoblin succumbing to a big-brother punch to the shoulder.

[Brian Stanfield]

2 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

Especially for heroic level games I think hit locations are great.  I've found my players like a visceral, cinematic description of what their attack to a specific body part does in game.

 

In last night's game a guy landed a critical normal damage attack (gauntleted fist, growth spell active) to a hobgoblin's arm which was enough to stun it and injure the arm severely.  Whole table laughed at the idea of the hobgoblin succumbing to a big-brother punch to the shoulder.

 

That is indeed funny, but is it essential for teaching the game for the first time? I'm trying to minimize the number of dice to roll to resolve actions. It seems like adding hit locations and different stun multiples adds a tad bit more to get confused about. I may be overthinking this though . . . .

[Toxxus]

20 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

That is indeed funny, but is it essential for teaching the game for the first time? I'm trying to minimize the number of dice to roll to resolve actions. It seems like adding hit locations and different stun multiples adds a tad bit more to get confused about. I may be overthinking this though . . . .

 

Really depends on your group and what the players like.

 

They're going to need help getting through it the first few times.  I did find replacing OCV and DCV with Offense and Defense made a BIG difference in how easily they remembered it.

[RDU Neil]

2 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

Especially for heroic level games I think hit locations are great.  I've found my players like a visceral, cinematic description of what their attack to a specific body part does in game.

 

In last night's game a guy landed a critical normal damage attack (gauntleted fist, growth spell active) to a hobgoblin's arm which was enough to stun it and injure the arm severely.  Whole table laughed at the idea of the hobgoblin succumbing to a big-brother punch to the shoulder.

 

Love this stuff. It is a head scratcher about whether to do it in Game 1, because it is more dice rolling and rules, but at the same time, it is a very visceral and cinematic aspect of the game... it is a rule that enforces colorful description and dynamic imagination... rather than just "I hit... X stun, Y body." 

 

I'm torn on this, because hands down, my favorite part of the game is combat with hit locations... so i'm biased.

[Chris Goodwin]

Brian, did you ever figure out which genre you were going to run?  If you're running a heroic genre, and if you're using the Hit Location Chart, I'd say go ahead and use it the first session.  My two new players in my DI game loved it.  They wondered why we didn't do it in the Champions game.  

 

What I found with my newer players is that if you give them a number to roll against, and it's on the sheet somewhere, they're happy to look on the sheet to find it.  So I'd go over the character sheet first with them.  Maybe say something like "These are some values here that we're going to refer to frequently," and point them to OCV, DCV, Perception Roll, DEX, SPD, phases, PD and ED (both normal and total), CON, and where they mark off BODY, STUN, and END loss.  Maybe make up a second sheet with all of that info, plus the combat maneuvers with their effective OCV/basic attack roll and DCV pre-filled, and nothing more, to go along with their main sheet.  

 

For combat, I would go over the combat sequence checklist.  6e2 p. 34 has the one for 6th edition; I think all of the previous editions' core rulebooks have one as well but I don't recall page numbers offhand.  I would give an explanation of the Speed Chart ("HERO's initiative system").  Explain roughly how phased movement works, how combat starts on segment 12, how the post-12 Recovery and Recovery in general works.  Then I'd run a short basic combat against easy-to-dispatch foes.  

 

Whatever you call OCV and DCV, I cannot strongly enough recommend that you pre-add 11 to OCV and have that written down on the character sheet.  

 

When they say "What do I roll again?" which they will do  often   Remind them "It's a combat roll, so 3d6, and you're rolling against your Offense / Basic Attack Roll" or whatever you end up calling it.  Or "It's a Perception roll, so roll 3d6 less than or equal to where it says PER Roll" and make sure that's on the sheet somewhere.  Or "It's your Climbing Skill" or whatever, "and roll 3d6 less than or equal to your Climbing value."  Or, "It's a damage roll, so look for the Power/weapon/attack/maneuver/etc., and roll that many dice.  You want high numbers here."  

 

I can't believe I forgot to do this, but I've just now asked my new Hero gamers from the Danger International game for their feedback.  I'll pass that along.  

 

[Brian Stanfield]

4 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

Especially for heroic level games I think hit locations are great.  I've found my players like a visceral, cinematic description of what their attack to a specific body part does in game.

 

In last night's game a guy landed a critical normal damage attack (gauntleted fist, growth spell active) to a hobgoblin's arm which was enough to stun it and injure the arm severely.  Whole table laughed at the idea of the hobgoblin succumbing to a big-brother punch to the shoulder.

 

1 hour ago, RDU Neil said:

 

Love this stuff. It is a head scratcher about whether to do it in Game 1, because it is more dice rolling and rules, but at the same time, it is a very visceral and cinematic aspect of the game... it is a rule that enforces colorful description and dynamic imagination... rather than just "I hit... X stun, Y body." 

 

I'm torn on this, because hands down, my favorite part of the game is combat with hit locations... so i'm biased.

 

You know, now that you both put it that way, I think maybe I've changed my mind. It does add to the imagination a little bit, and helps explain what the stun modifier is all about (getting conked over the head is more likely to knock you out than a punch to the arm . . . unless you're a hobgoblin, I guess). Seems like a small concession to make for a more vivid experience.

[RDU Neil]

34 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

 

You know, now that you both put it that way, I think maybe I've changed my mind. It does add to the imagination a little bit, and helps explain what the stun modifier is all about (getting conked over the head is more likely to knock you out than a punch to the arm . . . unless you're a hobgoblin, I guess). Seems like a small concession to make for a more vivid experience.

 

I think the big part of it is making that extra roll (to see what hit location was hit) dramatic. If the kill shot ends up hitting the arm instead, it needs a dramatic telling anyway... "You see your opening and drive your sword for the kill... (rattle, rattle 8! I hit... his upper arm?), but the bandit lord turns and the blade slides across his upper bicep! His armor is thin there, and the blade cuts through. Red wells up and he hisses in pain, but it isn't a killing blow!"

 

Definitely not, "Oh... arm shot. That sucks. Too bad for you." 

 

The dramatics and making sure the hit locations don't make the players feel ineffectual is important, IMO. Usually, the hit location roll is a "lean in" moment for the table, though... everyone looking to see if a head shot comes up!

 

Edit: Oh... I tend to default that HtH attacks roll the High Shot (2d6+1 right?) automatically, unless the player chooses to have the full body target (using a spear, or swinging a sword can more easily go to all parts of the body, or the player just wants the 3d6 chance). That tends to "feel" more correct for HtH in my experience, but clearly just a preference.

[Toxxus]

57 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

Edit: Oh... I tend to default that HtH attacks roll the High Shot (2d6+1 right?) automatically, unless the player chooses to have the full body target (using a spear, or swinging a sword can more easily go to all parts of the body, or the player just wants the 3d6 chance). That tends to "feel" more correct for HtH in my experience, but clearly just a preference.

 

It's been a minute since I've crunched the the numbers on this, but it leads to modest increase in average stun and body damage compared to 3d6.

 

It certainly does feel more right than punching someone in the ankle, though.

[drunkonduty]

You could have a hit location chart on the character sheet. Not just to give the attack mods but also lets players track their own armour values on the their sheets.

[Brian Stanfield]

8 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Brian, did you ever figure out which genre you were going to run?  If you're running a heroic genre, and if you're using the Hit Location Chart, I'd say go ahead and use it the first session.  My two new players in my DI game loved it.  They wondered why we didn't do it in the Champions game.

 

My group meets Saturday to decide what we’ll run. I’m letting them pick something they’re interested in so they’re more likely to want to learn. 

[Badger]

Well, to be fair, I don't have a gaming group anymore.  Everybody got married or moved or whatever AKA life.  I still enjoy character creation, world creation exercises on occasion.  You never know we may unite once the kids get out of their houses.   (but seriously, character concepts and stuff actually interest me, just for the heck of it, sometimes)

 

 

[Brian Stanfield]

12 hours ago, Badger said:

Well, to be fair, I don't have a gaming group anymore.  Everybody got married or moved or whatever AKA life.  I still enjoy character creation, world creation exercises on occasion.  You never know we may unite once the kids get out of their houses.   (but seriously, character concepts and stuff actually interest me, just for the heck of it, sometimes)

 

 

 

This is pretty much why I went from 3e to 6e in the rules. I quit playing with my friends when I went to college, and always meant to teach people the HERO System, but time marched on and I never got around to it. I saw the 5e book a few years ago at a used book store, and my friend got it for me. Then I discovered 6e had been out for many years and I decided to make the full shift to those rules. It was a long debate with myself because I always liked the figured characteristics, but once I made the decision I’ve been trying to master the rules enough to teach others. Now, I finally have a group of friends who are interested to learn! So for the first time in over 30 years I have a group again. 

[Brian Stanfield]

On 4/4/2019 at 11:23 AM, Chris Goodwin said:

Brian, did you ever figure out which genre you were going to run?  If you're running a heroic genre, and if you're using the Hit Location Chart, I'd say go ahead and use it the first session.  My two new players in my DI game loved it.  They wondered why we didn't do it in the Champions game.  

 

We decided on a Pulp era adventure. I'll create the characters, but they all came up with some great ideas for me to work with. I've got a disgraced federal agent turned private investigator, a Russian precursor to "Red Sparrow," who actually left Russia to escape the Communists, a silent movie starlet who was a Romanian gypsy who relocated to the United States as part of a circus, an industrial espionage specialist and face man of many talents, and a rough and tumble Asian scholar with his eyes on prizes that are worth more than what is normally acceptable in academia. They came up with great complications for their characters too, which I wasn't sure they'd pick up so quickly. 

 

So now to come up with an adventure for them all to use their abilities. I believe this looks like a job for the Empire Club!

[Spence]

I don't know if you have them, but Pulp Hero (5th) is one of the best general genre books ever written for Pulp.

 

Thrilling Places and Thrilling Hero Adventures (also 5th) are great supplements. 

 

But to be honest, Thrilling Places would be a lot better with a HiRes map pack. 

[Killer Shrike]

On 4/2/2019 at 5:07 AM, Brian Stanfield said:

...the possibilities were too vast and paralyzing for even an experienced gamer...so [I'll] create some decent pre-gens and let them play around with the rules a bit through game play...hopefully it'll become more natural to them when it comes time to create their own characters...

 

Ya.

[Brian Stanfield]

5 hours ago, Spence said:

I don't know if you have them, but Pulp Hero (5th) is one of the best general genre books ever written for Pulp.

 

Thrilling Places and Thrilling Hero Adventures (also 5th) are great supplements. 

 

But to be honest, Thrilling Places would be a lot better with a HiRes map pack. 

 

I have them all. I think the cover of Thrilling Hero Adventures helped me sell them on the pulp idea. It’s a beautiful book!

 

I agree with you: all the supplements would be better served with HiRes maps to go with their PDFs. I  think I’m going to put the Empire Club in Hudson City to start with specifically because there is such a great map to use.

 

Now, how do I get everyone together in a way that doesn’t start with, “You’re all sitting in the Empire Club when you meet...”? But I suppose it is a genre trope to have them all hand selected for a mission because of their unique skill sets. 

[drunkonduty]

You could give everyone a pre-game scene in which they meet one of the other characters. Nothing major: A bar brawl (cos I can't get past my DnD roots), they were both competing for some prize (artefact, a pretty person, gambling, sporting event, whatever) , random meeting (they both jumped into the same cab, were on the same cruise liner, at Ric's the night Ugarte was shot), mutual friend,  worked or adventured  together. Maybe FBI-Guy or Circus Romany helped Red Sparrow come in from the cold? FBI-Guy might once have chased  Espionage-Guy. Scholar once sought a "prop" (actually a valuable artefact) from a movie Circus Romany was starring in (Ooh! The headress she wore when she played Cleopatra.)

Each scenario needs:

a Time (both to give it a bit more verisimilitude and to give a sense of how it appears in the characters' personal time lines.)

a Place (something evocative. Ric's Cafe in Casablanca, a fog bound water front. I'm sure you get it.)

What were they doing that brought them together?

a Goal (By which I mean a dramatic goal. Which should be that they became friends, or at least learned to respect one another.  Given this is Pulp! it should probably be in the crucible of fast paced action.)

Can also be a good place to introduce Hunteds or DNPCs.

 

A suggestion: Let each player have a turn to nominate a scenario. Then the other players get to decide which of their characters is the one involved. Let them play it out together.

 

Sorry for the back seat GM-ing. It's just your campaign already sounds super cool (you have some awesome sounding characters there) and I am stuck running Pathfinder. ?

 

[Brian Stanfield]

4 minutes ago, drunkonduty said:

Sorry for the back seat GM-ing. It's just your campaign already sounds super cool (you have some awesome sounding characters there) and I am stuck running Pathfinder. ?

 

Ha! I'm sorry for your time in purgatory. But I appreciate the back seat GM-ing.

 

So, to see if I'm clear on this, if I have 6 players, you're suggesting 3 prequels where they meet? All the players can watch each prequel as a group, and maybe give input as we go?

 

This seems like a great opportunity to micromanage the teaching of the game: Scene 1 is the Skill Roll scene where the two players maybe to a Skill vs. Skill challenge. Scene 2 could be maybe a Presence attack to stop a pickpocket or something. Scene 3 could be a scuffle where a few punches are thrown. I could even have a Scene 4 where they all sort of run together so they all meet . . . . Or maybe that's too much meet-cute for one night. 

 

But see what you think of this: each character is given a mysterious invitation from some Mr. X of some sort to meet at a particular place. Maybe Mr. X actually rigs the paired meetings to see how they will react while he, of course, secretly watches from the shadows. Each pairing will lead to them eventually learning of each other's invitation. The three pairings then meet at the Empire Club, where Mr. X is a benefactor to their becoming members. They are then all brought together to accomplish some task to judge their worthiness for membership. Something like that.

 

Thanks for the idea! Back seat GM all you want! I'm just thrilled that all my players are on board with this genre! I need to start a raffle on who becomes the first Nazi puncher . . . .

[Brian Stanfield]

By the way, I started a thread in the Pulp HERO section, but since I have your attention here: Where in Hudson City would you place the Empire Club? Both the club and the city are going to be "home base" for the characters, at least to begin with.

[Doc Democracy]

An idea I never got around to using was for the Empire Club to be a huge zeppelin. It was mostly stationary but would take an annual tour of the Dark Continent.

The things is that casual members got to see the cupola and regular benefits, they never found out that this was no ordinary zeppelin. The ship did not use hydrogen or helium, the skin of the zeppelin was made of a gravity repelling alloy and the REAL Empire Club was inside what would normally be the airbag.

[Brian Stanfield]

4 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

An idea I never got around to using was for the Empire Club to be a huge zeppelin. It was mostly stationary but would take an annual tour of the Dark Continent.

The things is that casual members got to see the cupola and regular benefits, they never found out that this was no ordinary zeppelin. The ship did not use hydrogen or helium, the skin of the zeppelin was made of a gravity repelling alloy and the REAL Empire Club was inside what would normally be the airbag.

 

I like that!

[Zeropoint]

The only thing cooler than a Zeppelin is a CAVORITE ZEPPELIN!!!