Accelerated Falling

[Cool_Manchu]

A common trope in the superhero world is to have an NPC or the like to get thrown off a building or fall out of a plane, etc., only for the hero to leap after and somehow catch up in time to grab them and swing (or whatever) to safety. 

 

How would you build out a power that allows a hero (without flight, etc.) to accelerate their gravity defying decent? Would you buy flight that is at 31" or more, then put the adders Only to catch someone falling? Only downwards? Is there some easy thing I am overlooking? 

 

I'd love to hear some ideas if you have any.

 

Thanks!

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

IANAS (I Am Not A Skydiver), but falling faster is just a matter of tucking your appendages in, getting yourself falling head or feet first, and thus decreasing air resistance.  Somebody who wants to fall fast can do so, somebody who didn't want to fall at all is likely screaming and flailing around and generating plenty of air resistance. 

I'd just call for an Acrobatics check, eyeball the difficulty at -1 per segment that passed between them starting falling and you starting falling.  No real need for a power.  (Though somebody who did have Flight wouldn't even need to roll barring SFX issues.)

[eepjr24]

Primarily I would look to wind resistance. A falling person is likely trying to slow their fall or worst case flailing about a lot. The hero can stream line themselves for minimum wind resistance by assuming a divers position. 

 

If this is something the hero does on the regular, I would actually plot out what it takes and build a supplemental power, probably a small amount of flight, only downward, only to increase velocity, etc.

 

- E

[Cool_Manchu]

Where I am coming form is that while it is possible when you factor wind resistance into the equation. But even then, you'd need to fall a very long distance (as in thousands of feet while skydiving, not the hundreds of feet out an apartment window) for that effect to be workable in your favor. Also with falling rules in 6e, your velocity increases per segment, so even if the hero jumps a segment behind, his velocity will not catch up and in fact will be progressively more behind.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

25 minutes ago, Cool_Manchu said:

Where I am coming form is that while it is possible when you factor wind resistance into the equation. But even then, you'd need to fall a very long distance (as in thousands of feet while skydiving, not the hundreds of feet out an apartment window) for that effect to be workable in your favor. Also with falling rules in 6e, your velocity increases per segment, so even if the hero jumps a segment behind, his velocity will not catch up and in fact will be progressively more behind.

Sounds to me like you need to tell physics to put on its spandex and get with the program already. 

[Lucius]

3 hours ago, Cool_Manchu said:

A common trope in the superhero world is to have an NPC or the like to get thrown off a building or fall out of a plane, etc., only for the hero to leap after and somehow catch up in time to grab them and swing (or whatever) to safety. 

 

How would you build out a power that allows a hero (without flight, etc.) to accelerate their gravity defying decent? Would you buy flight that is at 31" or more, then put the adders Only to catch someone falling? Only downwards? Is there some easy thing I am overlooking? 

 

I'd love to hear some ideas if you have any.

 

Thanks!

 

I think one thing you may be overlooking is that you have a decision to make.

Is the scene where the hero leaps after a falling person and somehow catches up in time to grab them and swing (or whatever) to safety, something you

1) WANT to have happen, or

2) want to NOT happen?

 

Because the quote above sounds like you want it to happen but here -

 

 

1 hour ago, Cool_Manchu said:

Where I am coming form is that while it is possible when you factor wind resistance into the equation. But even then, you'd need to fall a very long distance (as in thousands of feet while skydiving, not the hundreds of feet out an apartment window) for that effect to be workable in your favor. Also with falling rules in 6e, your velocity increases per segment, so even if the hero jumps a segment behind, his velocity will not catch up and in fact will be progressively more behind.

 

you seem to be arguing against it.

 

If you want it not to happen, that's easy: Just Say No. If you want it to be possible, I suggest calling for an Acrobatics or Breakfall roll, or if the hero lacks those Skills, maybe a DEX roll at a penalty.

 

If your situation is that you are not the one running the game and are afraid that your character will face this situation and want to be prepared, you might ask whoever is running the game how they will handle it and find out what they think will fly (so to speak.) If they don't think an Acrobatics roll is enough, what's called for may be anything from your proposal of "Flight, only downwards" to "5d6 Luck, only to save people" or maybe "Power Skill: Superhero (always saves the day)"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

 

 

[Cool_Manchu]

I'm not arguing anything I am pointing out gravity and how it works and trying to stupidly wrap my head around a game mechanic to reflect real world things that really don't matter. I happened to be watching a Batman cartoon and thought I would ask since everyone here knows so much. 

[Doc Democracy]

OK.  So we are talking about situations where terminal velocity is unlikely to be a factor?

 

Like all real HERO problems you need to think about the action in game terms rather than real life things.

 

A person falls off a building and your hero leaps off to catch them.  That is a common trope for flying heroes.  You want your non-flying hero to catch the person but I am lacking a purpose for that because now they are both falling.  What does the hero do then??  It is what happens next that would tell me how to model it.

 

Doc

[BoloOfEarth]

I think the comparison of in-game falling speeds and acceleration (without regard to real-world wind resistance) fails to take into account one thing - the starting velocity of the two people.

 

For Example: 

 

After taunting his temporarily Stunned foe SpideyDude, the Greed Goblin drops Gwen Gracy off the top of a tower of the Brooklyn Bridge.  The top of the tower is 83 meters above the water, so left to her own devices Gwen will fall:

• 10m in Segment 1 (total 10m down)
• 20m in Segment 2 (total 30m down)
• 30m in Segment 3 (total 60m down)
• 40m in Segment 4 (going splat on the water after the total fall of 83m for 20d6 damage, due to the 40m velocity)

Because of his Stunned condition, SpideyDude doesn't get to do anything until Segment 2, at which point he launches himself (half-Phase Leap) downward.  He's not just jumping over the side (and then falling at the same velocity as Gwen), so he starts with a downward velocity of 28m, which puts him just shy of the screaming girl.  For dramatic sake, the GM says that SpideyDude needs Segment 3 to close the final distance (she's falling at 30m, but he's now falling at 38m), during which SpideyDude uses his other Half-Phase action to make a Move-By Grab.  At the start of Segment 4, SpideyDude does an Acrobatics roll to flip around, then fires off a webline and uses his Swinging power to get her to safety.

 

Good thing he didn't just fire off a webline from the top of the tower to arrest her fall in Segment 2, or she might have taken 10d6 from the sudden stop and snapped her neck.

[L. Marcus]

... I'd just like to say that the Distance Fallen part of the table is seriously outta whack with reality. The first segment ends with the faller travelling at ~10 m/s and a distance fallen of 5 meters. Distance equals acceleration times time times time divided by two; s = a * t^2/2, while velocity equals acceleration times time; v = a * t (presupposing the faller starts at rest, downwards-travel-wise).

[ScottishFox]

I found this on the web.  You would have until a tiny fraction into Segment 5 to pull this off.

 

[Doc Democracy]

15 hours ago, L. Marcus said:

... I'd just like to say that the Distance Fallen part of the table is seriously outta whack with reality. The first segment ends with the faller travelling at ~10 m/s and a distance fallen of 5 meters. Distance equals acceleration times time times time divided by two; s = a * t^2/2, while velocity equals acceleration times time; v = a * t (presupposing the faller starts at rest, downwards-travel-wise).

 

To be correct, [distance travelled] equals [initial velocity] * [time] + 1/2[acceleration] * [time] * [time].

 

To be fair, in a falling scenario, initial velocity is zero and so Marcus' equation is correct for that first segment.

 

[distance travelled] equals 0*1s + (1/2 * 10m/s/s *1s *1s) which equals 0 + 1/2 * 10 which equals 5m.

 

I reckon the table is good....

[L. Marcus]

Really? Was it changed in Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete? Because the numbers in the Falling Table on 6E2, p. 141 is all botched when it comes to distances.

[Doc Democracy]

19 hours ago, L. Marcus said:

The first segment ends with the faller travelling at ~10 m/s and a distance fallen of 5 meters.

 

I thought you were quoting the table  I still have not checked it, but if this was your calculations and the table deviates from them, then of course, I am 100% with you. 🙂

 

[Doc Democracy]

19 hours ago, L. Marcus said:

... I'd just like to say that the Distance Fallen part of the table is seriously outta whack with reality. The first segment ends with the faller travelling at ~10 m/s and a distance fallen of 5 meters.

 

I thought you were quoting the table, but if this was your calculations and the table deviates from them, then of course, I am 100% with you. 🙂

 

Having checked the table, I see they have velocity of 10 (correct) and distance of 10 (incorrect).  This reflects HERO's whacky movement conceit where all the movement in a phase happens in the segment in which you take the phase based on your velocity.

 

So, velocity 10, you move 10m.  It is why you get 10m in first segment, 20m in second, 30m in third for a total of 60m in 3 segments.

 

Obviously we know that in 3 seconds, the distance travelled will be, 45m

 

Table should be 5m, 20m, 45m, 80m, 125m, 180m IF you presume that the acceleration is constant.  In reality air resistance will be increasing as velocity increases and so the increase in velocity will decrease as speed increases and so both the distance travelled and the current velocity would be less than the Table suggests and it would take longer than 6 seconds to achieve terminal velocity. 

 

I can understand why they went with a more standard format for the table, in one segment the acceleration happens all at once and the movement happens after that.  In those circumstances the table makes game mechanic sense if not physical reality sense.  😄

 

Doc

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'd just let a character dive by reducing wind resistance and reach the falling victim, no roll required unless the story absolutely requires they not be caught or the character is clearly too far away.  I mean, we're talking superheroes here, right?  Doing something heroic?  They get to do that stuff without some random chance of failure.  Its not like the comics ever show Batman not quite reaching the victim in time.  Sorry, I tried!

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'll give an illustration for why I think there should be no roll in addition to source material.  Its from a personal experience in a campaign.

I built a character whose background was that he was a "Bloodguard," a specially trained person with powers who was the bodyguard of a person who in the future would play a key role and have lasting significance on history, even if they seemed like nothing special at the time.  The bloodguards have been around for millennia, and in this case, my character was to protect another PC who was not very tough but had interesting powers.

 

So my character's ward is on the roof, isolated because of a villain's trick, and in danger.  My powers allowed me to sense the character, and when they are in danger, so I go into an elevator, head out to the top of it, and fly full speed up the elevator shaft, turning my HTA variable advantage into armor piercing, to crash through the elevator shack's roof at the top and presence attack the bad guy.

 

I roll all ones on my damage.

 

All 9 dice

 

All.

Ones.

 

I bounce off the roof of a FREAKING SHACK despite having superpowers and crackling with powerful energy.  At no point should this have even been in question.  My ward's life was in danger.

 

now it was hilarious, but it also illustrated something to me, because the GM had to make the supervillain not do anything just so he didn't kill off a PC because of a stupid die roll: don't let your heroes fail when its a critical Hero Moment unless you've worked out in advance that this fits the story with the players.

 

Should have been a casual strength thing: you bust through because on average you will always bust through.  Instead he made me roll when I should have been able to fail.

[ScottishFox]

On 6/28/2019 at 2:50 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Should have been a casual strength thing: you bust through because on average you will always bust through.  Instead he made me roll when I should have been able to fail.

 

That was a 10 million-to-one roll of bad luck.

 

Can't blame the GM for assuming you would get through when the odds of you not getting through is thousands-to-one at least.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I can blame the GM for not just assuming you break through without need a roll for an event like that.  Its not like I was trying to punch Grond out or something.  It was a perfect illustration of when to make a judgment call for the story and genre as a GM instead of slavishly following every rule and opportunity for a roll.  You do not always need the roll.