Hugh Neilson

7 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

It is more complicated than that because you have two variables that affect the stun.  First you have to roll high enough BODY for the stun multiple to matter.  There is a 56% chance of rolling at least 14 BODY on 4d6.  After that you have a 1 in 3 chance of rolling a 3 on the stun multiple.  That means you have a have a 19% chance of matching the stun from a normal attack.   The law of averages is going to mean that the normal attack is far more consistent in how much stun is rolled.      

You have a 20% chance of at least matching the Stun.  You have a chance of a much higher than average result - at the extreme, 72 STUN - one chance in 3,888 is low, but a lot better than 1 in 2,176,782,336 to roll 72 on 12d6.  With the old stun multiple, extremes were sufficiently likely to make the KA a better bet at getting STUN through.  Now, while still possible, the KA delivers big STUN much less often, making it a poor choice for inflicting STUN.  That was the goal - it's KILLING attack, so it should not be used to punch STUN through more effectively than a normal attack.  It makes KA a niche power - useful against automatons, entangles and objects, but not as useful to KO living targets as a normal attack.

4 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

What do Combined Attacks have to do with doubling?  I have no issues with this but it distracts from the conversation.

If I have a Blast and an RKA, I can use them as a combined attack. Neither augments the other.

If I have STR and an HKA, and we remove "STR Boost HKA", I can still use them as a combined attack and the high STR character still hits harder.

Doubling isn't the issue. One ability adding to one other ability is an outlier mechanic that I would remove.

4 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Is it perfectly balanced? No. Did doubling fix the problem from 2nd through 5th edition? Yes. A compromise solution was arrived at where you had to buy at least 1/2 your HKA as HKA directly and it worked for decades.

Show me the character creativity it stimulated.  Find me three characters - just 3 - in all of 2e through 5e after the change (not the ones written in 1e) that have a 3d6 HKA and 15 STR, or a 1d6 KA and 45 STR, or any similar build with a 3:1 or greater ratio of STR:HKA or HKA:STR.

4 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

No, we didn't all cruise along ignoring the STUN Lotto. Some of us cut our GM teeth teaching engineers and programmers not to power game a ruleset that is a power gamers dream. It was kept under control by GM supervision in various campaigns I've been involved in. Obviously, your experience was different, but you found yourself taking advantage of it. I had no problem with this change to the ruleset. But STR adding to HKA wasn't game breaking with doubling, so no change was necessary.

A lot of us muddled along with the Stun Multiple for a long time too - one extra edition. It was still a good change, and it was not essential.  Note that it has an optional rule too - adopt hit locations and the multiple returns to 1-5.

4 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Here we disagree. Why remove a rule(doubling) to make an extremely common power into a more complicated build that does the same thing? What will your write-up for a HKA that is not purchased with money but with points look like for a mage who summons swords.

Show me that really simple spell in 5e or 6e.  The build is already very complicated.

4 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

As you yourself quoted, Martial Arts and Move-by/through have to be exempted by the GM. That's because of the language of the optional rule for 6th is all inclusive. That wasn't necessary in 2nd through 5th because doubling only applied to HKA.

So why is it necessary to cap an HKA, but not to cap any other attack?

4 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

How is his STR limited? He can still use it fully for all other purposes.  Doubling is not a rule to limit STR, it limits HKA's.

It is limited by not adding to HKAs.  Everyone else's STR adds to HKAs.  His does not.  The HKA can still be increased by non-limited STR. It has not been limited.

4 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

It's a combined attack and each has defenses applied separately. The multipower build introduces scenarios where he will not have his full STR. It'll rarely come up, but it can happen.

 

 

I don't have to. Steve Long's example said it all. But I'll summarize, it stops abusive builds.

Apparently, the only "abuse" is arises in those rare instances when the character will need both his KA and his full STR. That seems very uncommon, and I think accepting those "abuses" is no less reasonable a compromise.

4 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Actually Killing attack wasn't reduced that much. The average stun multiplier for 5th edition is 2.6 while in 6th edition it is 2. You do have a chance of getting better with 5th edition but it still will be just a 1 33.33% of the time as rolling both a 1 and a 2 are considered a 1.

It's the volatility that made the Stun Lotto powerful.  Let's say we have a 35 DEF opponent in a 12 DC game On average, 12d6 rolls 42 and does 7 STUN past defenses. The rolls won't vary a lot from the average.  A 4d6 KA averages 14 BOD. It will get 0, 0, 0, 7, 21, 35 past defenses for an average of 20.5 past defenses.

Let's drop defenses to 25. On average, 12d6 rolls 42 and does 17 STUN past defenses.  A 4d6 KA averages 14 BOD. It will get 0, 0, 3, 17, 31, 45 past defenses for an average of 16 past defenses.  A more comparable result, but I bet that 45 means a 1 in 6 chance of stunning the target (maybe even 2 in 6 from 31).

The average before defenses is not as meaningful.

6e?  You have a 1 in 3 chance of matching STUN from the normal attack.  KA exists to do BOD.

6 hours ago, wcw43921 said:

"It's really easy to assume that the loudest voices are the only voices."

How many remember "The moral majority is neither."

13 hours ago, Grailknight said:

As for what worked well about HKA, doubling was added in 2e and was RAW for decades until 6e where it was changed. It says something about doubling that in the very next paragraph it was mentioned as an optional rule for consideration. I don't recall any other instances where Steve Long wavered like that and this is the man who removed Figured Characteristics and eliminated COM.

We're at 6e v2 p 99, for anyone trying to follow along.

First off, that sidebar suggests inability to

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more than double the Damage Classes of his base attack, no matterhow many different methods he uses to add damage

Taken exactly as written, that would include combat skill levels (the basis for Deadly Blow et al.), combat maneuvers (martial and otherwise - so much for all those extra Martial Arts DCs) and movement (that would hurt a lot of speedsters).  I note that

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the GM typically grants exceptions for Move By/Through and other movement-based attacks, Martial Maneuvers in some campaigns, and the like

 so any cold feet on removing the doubling rule got even colder when considering the doubling rule as a general principal.

As well,

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An HA usually counts as base STR damage.

Further support for HA being limited STR.
 

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Extra DCs bought for Martial Maneuvers count as base damage for unarmed combat. (If a Maneuver’s used to  add damage to a weapon, the weapon is the base damage and the Maneuver affects it according to the standard rule described in the main text.)

 

So we need some more exceptions to the optional rules tacked on to what was a change endeavouring to simplify the "adding damage" rules.  I note that it is also suggested for "heroic campaigns" and real weapons paid for with cash rather than CP, although the example is clearly a Super.  Let's look at that example:

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Matterhorn (STR 60) decides to take advantage of the Adding Damage rules. He buys a dagger — HKA ½d6, Armor Piercing (+¼). Using his 60 STR, he can increase the dagger’s damage to 3½d6! Fortunately for the campaign, Matterhorn’s GM is no fool; he recognizes that it’s unbalancingly effective to let a character have an HKA 3½d6 for 6 Character Points. (While it’s true Matterhorn has also paid 50 Character Points for his STR, that has plenty of  usefulness on its own.) He rules that Matterhorn can’t do more than double the DCs of his dagger, so regardless of how much STR he uses it can’t do more than HKA 1d6+1, Armor Piercing damage.

so...the first 12 points of STR were useless, and cause no balance issue by a freebie KA adder, but the next 3 STR (if he had a 15 STR), and every point thereafter (if it's higher), were much more useful and can't add to that KA for free without unbalancing the game.  What limitation could Matterhorn take on his +50 STR if it "does not increase HKAs"?

In that example, Matterhorn invested 56 points, 50 for STR and 6 for that dagger.  Let's strip out the Focus limitation - it's 1/2d6 AP HKA, sharp fingernails, 12 points, so a total of 62.   Will you let him combine that 1d6+1 AP HKA with a 12d6 STR strike as a Combined Attack?  If not, why not?  A character with a 12d6 Blast and a 1d6+1 AP RKA could make a combined attack.  If he buys a 1d6+1 AP RKA, No Range (a bit pricier at 17 points), now can he use a combined attack?  What about a 1d6+1 AP HKA, No STR Adds (exactly the same mechanical result - how is it "balanced" for these to cost 5 more points than using an HKA with STR adders?  Especially if we "need" the doubling rule for balance.)

If you would not allow this, perhaps Matterhorn should also be no fool.  What if he instead spends his points on:

+21 STR (so now he has 31);

A Multipower of two fixed slots, +34 STR and a 2d6 AP HKA.

That's 37 for the pool + 3 + 4 for the two slots = 44 points + 21 for STR - 65 points rather than 62.  He can have a 65 STR whenever he wants, 5 more than the non-MP build.  He can have a 3 1/2d6 AP HKA. So he has added +5 STR for only 3 points AND can use that full 3 1/2d6 AP HKA that doubling would cap at 1d6+1.

Lots of other + STR/Multipower combos could certainly be envisioned.

Explain to me how all of this "you can add STR to HKA but only up to doubling it" is creating better balance - and go slowly this time!

11 hours ago, Grailknight said:

In simple terms, because while RAW allows STR to add to HKA, it does not allow HKA to add to STR. 

 

In genre, stronger things hit harder and do more damage with weapons including what HERO classifies as Killing Damage weapons. Doubling hits a sweet spot between play balance and realism where you can only add so much to a weapon and beyond that point it becomes ineffective. Without doubling we get those "thumbtack vs battleship arguments" that we've had before and don't need to repeat.

Over time, the "power adds to other powers" mechanics have been removed.  At one time, you added extra mental defense from Ego, if you paid for some mental defense. Many powers had an "add HTH damage" mechanic bolted on.

In genre, creatures that live in molton magma or the heart of a star are not injured by heat and fire. In Hero, you pay for what you get and you get what you pay for.  For Fantasy games, I would modify the build for those "buy with cash" weapons to include an STR add.   But maybe it would not double for every weapon.  Perhaps some would have higher maximum adds and others would be lower. Perhaps some would be enhanced by DEX instead of STR and others would go the other way.  That would be more familiar to current d20 players.  Maybe some would be better targeted intelligently, so INT could add, and mental attacks could be enhanced by EGO.

As well, with the advent of combined attacks, a high STR character can hit harder with no KA adder.  If I have a 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA, cite the rule that precludes me from doing 4d6 HKA damage + 6d6 STR strike.  There is none.  Remove the adder and it becomes even more clear that I can combine an STR Strike with a no range KA.  Just like a character with a 6d6 Blast and a 2d6 RKA can use both at once as a combined attack, but can't add to the RKA using that Blast.  Now, they can build for the same effect - they can have a Blast and an RKA in a Multipower and trade off.  They could buy some RKA that is Unified with their Blast (we need a one-way Unified Power for this).  And that clawed character could put KA in a Multipower with STR, or with Hand Attack, or with Drain PD (bruising punch). Hearing Flash (ThunderClap) or Explosion Double Knockback Shockwave.

11 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Now in simple terms, tell me why the reverse is not also viable? Why can't my 15 STR plus 3d6 HKA hit for 60 STR instead of 4d6 Killing? As you say, the points are the same. If this were possible by RAW, I'd agree that doubling is unnecessary, but I've never seen anyone beside myself make this argument.

To me, this says STR increasing HKA falls outside the normal rules.  It's not that HKA doesn't add to STR.  It's that no other attack power can be enhanced by another ability - only HKA can be enhanced and only STR can enhance it.  The doubling rule just caps the free HKA you can have if you have purchased STR.  You don't get the extra HKA unless you also pay for STR, and you only get this benefit from your STR if you buy enough HKA.  Most of these synergies have been removed. HKA/STR has not. Is it balanced?  How often do you see a 15 STR character with a 3d6 HKA or a 60 STR character with a 1d6 HKA?  I saw a lot of the latter in 2e - because in 1e the Bricks normally bought a 1d6 HKA to benefit from the STR adder "for free" with the minimum HKA at that time, and that 1d6 KA was not modified when the first Enemies book was updated to 2e.  This was most obvious for the Monster, who supposedly relied on that KA - but it became a 2d6 KA in second edition.

9 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Have you found the system broken with how HKA works?  Seems like Hero has cruised along fine with hand to hand killing attacks allowing increased damage from STR since, I dunno, 1st edition?  

Years ago, I questioned those vilifying the Stun Lotto.  It had never been an issue in my games.  Lucius, IIRC, pushed me to look at the math.  I did.  The math was clear - the KA was more effective at passing STUN past defenses. Our groups had a four colour approach and didn't use KAs against living targets, just as a matter of course, so it never became visible. Meanwhile, I realized that I was gravitating to KAs for agents precisely because it stood a better chance of passing some STUN through to the Supers.  But we had cruised on just fine with the Stun Lotto since 1e, right?

Virtually every change has had its critics and detractors.  STR adding to KAs is no different from DEX adding to SPD and/or CV, Growth or Stretching momentum boosting HTH (but not HKAs) or CON providing more stamina in the form of REC or END.

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

Hugh wants the system to be more coherent.  Hand attack is, to all extents and purposes, limited STR.  It adds to STR because it is the same thing doing a limited version of the same thing.  If STR was not in a black box, you would be able to modulate the damage, lifting and other things associated with STR on a character by character basis.  Killing attack is not doing anything that STR does.  The idea that STR adds to the damage is because it is mixing up SFX with mechanics.  It seems obvious to you that a sword should do more damage if someone stronger is using it.  It also makes more sense to me that Mental Blast do more damage because their EGO is high but it doesn't.

 

There is inconsistency in the system, when SFX make a difference to the mechanics and when they do not.  You either agree that you would like a bit more consistency or not and what that would look like but saying that it has been this way since [whenever] doesn't engage that argument.

Bingo.  In some games, especially old, rules-lawyer/character advocacy games, maximizing the value of abilities by creative use and interpretation was part of the game.  "Where does it say my Magic Missiles can't target eyebals?"  "I Create Water in his lungs." Hero's "pay for the mechanics" model was very different. If it is logical that your other abilities and SFX should allow you do this other thing, and it has a significant in-game effect, then that logic justifies paying points for that other ability, not getting that other ability for free.  Except for HKAs.

He's a lot like CLOWN - does what he wants; the PCs can't prevent it; readily removes control of the PCs from their players.

I'm sure someone could design a spectacular campaign around him as the mastermind behind it all, but it would be much easier to (ab)use him in a highly annoying manner.

5 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

FWIW, I brought up Margarita Man about 6 posts prior to yours, albeit with a link rather than a quote.

 

 Infamous...wow, I like that!  Were it not for Jimmy, I probably would have used a link as well

4 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

One thing, Penetrating does not replace the Does BODY advantage. If your have an NND Killing Attack it still requires Does BODY to do BODY, the Penetrating advantage does not change that.

I believe the point is that Penetrating is an NND, Impenetrable Defenses, Does BOD, incorporated into a KA.

3d6KA, Penetrating costs 67 points and will get 3 BOD average 3 BOD through every time on average, plus the regular KA. A 1d6 KA, NND, Does BOD costs 60 and will average 3.5 BOD through.  Pretty comparable.

8 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Yet that same sword build in Supers is incredibly simple.

 

Sure - and it would be just as simple for that sword to be 4d6 KA, No Range, OAF as it is to be 2d6 HKA, OAF, add your STR, but if you are really strong, only add some of your STR.  We'll get back to that STR later.

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

In Hugh's world, that sword in Supers is also incredibly simple.  Killing attack, no range.

DING DING - every bit as simple as any attack that normally has range, but yours does not

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Alternately, since HKA has worked so well for 40+ years, maybe we should just charge 5 points per d6 of normal damage, whether ranged or STR adds, and be done with it, no "hand to hand attack" limitation involved.

Which one worked so well?  The 1e version that had no gradations between each 15 points adding 1d6, with no doubling rule?

2e brought us the doubling rule.

Did we get +1; +1/2d6/+1d6 in 2e, 3e or 4e?

The STUN Lotto was an issue from 1e to 5e.  Should the STUN only be reduced by rDEF or by all DEF, or by all DEF only if you have rDEF?  Maybe all DEF to a maximum of 2x rDEF, since we like doubling rules.

8 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Plus, why would we want to ditch HKA? The problems caused by adding STR are caused by removing the doubling rule. With doubling rules, it's balanced with RKA on an DC per Active Points basis. Using your change will give every HKA the same discount/reduced pricing that's so troubling with HA. Yes, there's that free 10 points of STR, but that's available to everyone. I can't see your pursuit of perfect as worth it against my very good status quo. Give me something better and just as simple and I'll be open to it.

So it IS balanced if you can have 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA that gives you 4d6 HKA.  And if you have a 10 STR and a 3d6+1 HKA, also 4d6 HKA, for exactly the same price?  Can I have +20 STR for free if I forego the KA entirely?  It's not costing any different between these two options. 

But it's NOT balanced if I have 45 STR and a 1d6 HKA if we let STR push that up to 4d6 HKA - we have to cap it at 2d6 HKA.

Please explain to me why it's perfect to double, and problematic afterwards.  Use simple words as I am clearly missing something massively obvious here!

Is having 10 STR and a 4d6 KA with no range worth 50 points (3d6+1 HKA) or 40 points (4d6 RKA, No Range)?  The 40 point one still does full damage after a STR drain too!

Why don't we have HEntangle, HFlash, HDrain and HAid, all the same as their ranged counterparts except that they are boosted by STR?  That would be like HBlast, which is just that HA costing 5 points per d6.

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

It does indeed accomplish the goal of eliminating free points.  The limitation does its job of saving points, the person who buys Killing Attack, no range, pays fewer points than the person who buys Killing Attack because their power is limited.  Nothing to do with free points from STR.

Having a base 10 STR has nothing to do with it.  And you could sell back STR, so the first 10 STR being free is only an illusion.

56 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

It is cleaner.  Each thing does what you pay for.  No extra benefits for choosing a particular thing, no little secret bennies for those that know the system. 

 

I can understand the objection, It makes killing attack work like blast. No differences.

 

BINGO

51 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

I understand it also. I'd prefer to just change HA to 5 points and have it act like HKA. Or did you forget that HA also benefits from that same free STR?

HA is +X STR, only for normal damage (-1/2).  When you buy more of something, typically it adds to the "something" you started with.

18 hours ago, Grailknight said:

HA at 5 points is only an issue if you are seeking perfect points balance. The difference between Density Increase and Martial Arts DC's versus HA and STR is 1 point per DC. We whine about it at times, but we've always accepted that some concepts are slightly more expensive than others.

 

KA is not the only power that comes bundled with STR. HA does also. Doubling and proration solve all the problems except the free 10 STR.

 HA is extra STR, only adds to normal damage. It's not bundled with STR, it's a portion of STR unbundled,

As to "why is it OK with Killing Attack", frankly it's not.  If you want your punches to do more damage because you have iron fists, you buy more damage with Hand Attack. If you want more resistance against fire and cold damage because you are immune to temperature extremes, you buy a defense power that only works against fire and cold damage.  You should Grab and Hold more effectively because you have six tentacles instead of two arms? Buy extra STR only to Grab and Hold.  If you think your claws should slice deeper because you are so strong, buy more HKA and Unified Power it to STR so loss of STR erodes that extra claw damage.  Your high STR is a justification for buying more KA, not a reason you should get a free bonus to your KA. 

Ditch HKA and RKA.  We can just have KA, ranged by default.  Want a no range KA?  Put "no range" on it, just like you would on a No Range Entangle.

It would make a sword build more complicated for Heroic especially.  So what? We buy those weapons with cash, not CP.  And they are already pretty complex builds.

Maybe I'll cross-post him here.  No one will ever let him into a game, though, and he's unpublished. But in the honour of the late Jimmy Buffet, I re-present:

Quote

 

Margarita Man

 

1d6 Mind Scan, Cumulative (+1/2), 6 doublings of maximum (+1 3/4), Penetrating x 4 (+2), 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects: Not detectable by mental awareness (+1/4); Target Effect is Invisible to Target (+1/2) 34 AP

 

1d6 Mental Illusions, Cumulative (+1/2), Cumulative (+1/2), 6 doublings of maximum (+1 1/2), Penetrating x 4 (+2), 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects: Not detectable by mental awareness (+1/4); Target Effect is Invisible to Target (+1/2) 34 AP

 

1d6 Mind Control, Cumulative (+1/2), 6 doublings of maximum (+1 1/2), Penetrating x 4 (+2), 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects: Not detectable by mental awareness (+1/4); Target Effect is Invisible to Target (+1/2) Telepathic (+1/4) 35 AP

 

1d6 Telepathy, Cumulative (+1/2), 6 doublings of maximum (+1 1/2), Penetrating x 4 (+2), 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects: Not detectable by mental awareness (+1/4); Target Effect is Invisible to Target (+1/2) 34 AP

 

Margarita Man sits on the beach on a tropical island sipping margaritas. No one knows who he really is. He rolls Mind Scan to locate his target. He keeps rolling until he gets a '3', as he'll need it to weed out the target from the rest of the Earth's population. At his assumed SPD 2, he gets 10 rolls a minute, so this takes about 22 minutes on average. Call it half an hour.

 

Once he hits, he rolls 1d6 per phase to add to his effect of, say, Ego +100 (full effects and -20 to the breakout roll). If the target lacks mental defense and has a 40 Ego, this will average 40 phases, or about 4 minutes at SPD 2. If the target has mental defense, it will take about 14 minutes at SPD 2. If the target has quadruple hardened mental defenses, he's immune.

 

That makes about 45 minutes, tops. MM now selects from Telepathy, Mind Control and Mental Illusions, with a combined attack for two or all three if desired. Now he can attack the target with impunity (unless the target makes a breakout roll, which is not technically impossible - 3's happen on occasion. If so, he starts again, but first he orders another margarita).

 

He takes another half hour or so to roll a 3 and get a lock. After that, another 15 minutes or less places the target at Ego +120 for a combination of effect and penalties to the breakout roll. These hit a lot quicker normally, since they don't have the modifiers for scanning large areas, but take the same time to build up to the appropriate level of success. Longer if he wants to cover his tracks so the target thinks his actions were his own idea. The target already has no idea he was affected by a mental power thanks to Invisible Power Effects.

 

Maybe he wants to get the full 384 point maximum (so that 30 EGO master villain with Mental Defenses will be caught at Ego +50 and -60 to the breakout roll after 384 phases – that takes almost 40 minutes, though. He could, I suppose, use Rapid Attack to sped up the process, but that takes a full phase – that means he can’t sip his margarita!

 

No one can detect his attacks due to his Invisible Power Effects. Once he selects a target, it's only a matter of time. If the target has quadruple hardened mental defenses, he'll get someone else to go kill that brainshielded freak. Or spend some xp adding more Penetrating levels.

 

He's a pretty standard Mentalist, except that he's slow and lacks an Ego Attack to do direct damage. And he has over 250 points left to buy other things. I'm thinking perhaps a [tropical island] base and some very loyal followers [who have good margarita-making skills] might be useful.

 

Actually, he could spend some of those point to have a 140 point Variable Power Pool of Mental Powers so he could have an array of other abilities instead of his standard "slow but steady" power suite. That would let him have Mental Paralysis if he wants, or a big Mental Blast. He could be quite the powerhouse - if he weren't content to lay on the beach, sip margaritas and bend targets to his will slowly, but surely. Are you SURE he isn't in your head right now?

 

I'm sure he could win "most annoying" if he could be bothered to put some effort into it.

OK, if we're allowing unlimited advantage stacking, I'm bringing in Margarita Man (he should be putting in an appearing in honour of the late Jimmy Buffett anyway).

Quote

 

Margarita Man

 

1d6 Mind Scan, Cumulative (+1/2), 6 doublings of maximum (+1 3/4), Penetrating x 4 (+2), 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects: Not detectable by mental awareness (+1/4); Target Effect is Invisible to Target (+1/2) 34 AP

 

1d6 Mental Illusions, Cumulative (+1/2), Cumulative (+1/2), 6 doublings of maximum (+1 1/2), Penetrating x 4 (+2), 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects: Not detectable by mental awareness (+1/4); Target Effect is Invisible to Target (+1/2) 34 AP

 

1d6 Mind Control, Cumulative (+1/2), 6 doublings of maximum (+1 1/2), Penetrating x 4 (+2), 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects: Not detectable by mental awareness (+1/4); Target Effect is Invisible to Target (+1/2) Telepathic (+1/4) 35 AP

 

1d6 Telepathy, Cumulative (+1/2), 6 doublings of maximum (+1 1/2), Penetrating x 4 (+2), 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects: Not detectable by mental awareness (+1/4); Target Effect is Invisible to Target (+1/2) 34 AP

 

Margarita Man sits on the beach on a tropical island sipping margaritas. No one knows who he really is. He rolls Mind Scan to locate his target. He keeps rolling until he gets a '3', as he'll need it to weed out the target from the rest of the Earth's population. At his assumed SPD 2, he gets 10 rolls a minute, so this takes about 22 minutes on average. Call it half an hour.

 

Once he hits, he rolls 1d6 per phase to add to his effect of, say, Ego +100 (full effects and -20 to the breakout roll). If the target lacks mental defense and has a 40 Ego, this will average 40 phases, or about 4 minutes at SPD 2. If the target has mental defense, it will take about 14 minutes at SPD 2. If the target has quadruple hardened mental defenses, he's immune.

 

That makes about 45 minutes, tops. MM now selects from Telepathy, Mind Control and Mental Illusions, with a combined attack for two or all three if desired. Now he can attack the target with impunity (unless the target makes a breakout roll, which is not technically impossible - 3's happen on occasion. If so, he starts again, but first he orders another margarita).

 

He takes another half hour or so to roll a 3 and get a lock. After that, another 15 minutes or less places the target at Ego +120 for a combination of effect and penalties to the breakout roll. These hit a lot quicker normally, since they don't have the modifiers for scanning large areas, but take the same time to build up to the appropriate level of success. Longer if he wants to cover his tracks so the target thinks his actions were his own idea. The target already has no idea he was affected by a mental power thanks to Invisible Power Effects.

 

Maybe he wants to get the full 384 point maximum (so that 30 EGO master villain with Mental Defenses will be caught at Ego +50 and -60 to the breakout roll after 384 phases – that takes almost 40 minutes, though. He could, I suppose, use Rapid Attack to sped up the process, but that takes a full phase – that means he can’t sip his margarita!

 

No one can detect his attacks due to his Invisible Power Effects. Once he selects a target, it's only a matter of time. If the target has quadruple hardened mental defenses, he'll get someone else to go kill that brainshielded freak. Or spend some xp adding more Penetrating levels.

 

He's a pretty standard Mentalist, except that he's slow and lacks an Ego Attack to do direct damage. And he has over 250 points left to buy other things. I'm thinking perhaps a [tropical island] base and some very loyal followers [who have good margarita-making skills] might be useful.

 

Actually, he could spend some of those point to have a 140 point Variable Power Pool of Mental Powers so he could have an array of other abilities instead of his standard "slow but steady" power suite. That would let him have Mental Paralysis if he wants, or a big Mental Blast. He could be quite the powerhouse - if he weren't content to lay on the beach, sip margaritas and bend targets to his will slowly, but surely. Are you SURE he isn't in your head right now?

 

So, let's assume that we are not allowing unlimited advantage stacking, nor massive boosts to the typical AP/DC limits.

22 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I don't really feel like it but its probably worth doing a number crunch of comparison between normal, AP, and penetrating attacks to see how effective each is across a range of attacks. 

I'll do some basic math.

12 DC is 8d6 Penetrating and 9 1/2d6 AP compared to a 12d6 unadvantaged attack.

If my opponent has 25 defenses, I'll average 8 STUN penetrating, 20 STUN AP or 17 STUN normal.  If the target has hardened defenses, AP drops to 8 STUN.  This seems pretty comparable at average defenses.  Bump AP to +1/2 and it either does 15 STUN or 3 STUN.  Stick to the normal attack.

If my opponent has 35 defenses, I'll average 8 STUN penetrating, 15 STUN AP or 9 STUN normal.  If the target has hardened defenses, AP does no 8 STUN on average.  This seems reasonable as well.  Bump AP to +1/2 and it either does 10 STUN or nothing.  Stick to the normal attack.

If my opponent has 15 defenses, I'll average 13 STUN penetrating, 25 STUN AP or 27 STUN normal.  If the target has hardened defenses, AP drops to 18 STUN.  The normal attack ooutperforms at low defenses.  Bump AP to +1/2 and it either does 20 STUN or 13 STUN, a bigger advantage to the normal attack.

I haven't sold myself one way or the other on Penetrating, but if AP is to be useful, +1/4 is the right advantage.

22 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 I am going by instinct here but my guess is that it will be shown that without a lot of other advantages stacked on (some, like autofire being quite expensive due to the +1 advantage adder) its not really a very effective advantage even at +¼.  Which is why you rarely see it actually in any published or private builds, in my observation.

 

I think your instincts are accurate. If we dropped Penetrating to +1/4, would it matter?  Now it's 9.5 STUN on average except for low defense targets (15 in my example).  It lacks any volatility.  However, if you want to do BOD, a Penetrating KA is much more effective than any other possibility I can think of in any game with universal resistant defenses. It's also a nice advantage for agents, as already mentioned, so they can trickle a little damage with their lower DC attacks.  I'd call it a much more niche advantage.

11 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

All in all, I think a lot of the complaints about CLOWN may be from bad GMing, not CLOWN themselves.

Ultimately, it is the GM who decides how to run the villains.  If you can't figure out a scenario that's not annoying to the players, maybe pick a different adversary?

9 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

That is kind of what the rules eventually ended up being, but even that is a mess: why is HTA 3 points, or 5 with a ½ limitation?  How on earth does that add up?

HKA: 5 points per damage class, applies damage, and adds STR to damage.

RKA: 5 points per damage class, applies damage at range.

 

Why doesn't this work the same for HTA?  Why the cost break??

Because 5 points for +1d6 HTH damage would be stupid overpriced compared to a Martial Arts DC or +5 STR.  Even 6 points for +2 skill levels with 3 HTH maneuvers would be a better deal - +1 more point per DC, but you can use it for OCV or DCV instead.

We've had lots of discussions over why KA is the only power that can be augmented by STR; suffice to say that I consider that the troublesome mechanic.  Viewed another way, STR should not come bundled with extra KA DCs for those characters who buy an HKA (or who buy enough HKA if you keep the doubling rule).

Honestly, I don't think Penetrating was considered when AP was repriced.  I agree with AP at -1/4.  Pre-6e, AP attacks tended to sit, seldom used, in Swiss Army Multipowers.  High defense characters typically Hardened their defenses, and low defense characters were hit harder by, say, 12d6 normal than 8d6 AP anyway.

On the other hand, AP seldom results in BOD damage like Penetrating KAs do.  Maybe the advantage should be higher for KAs/inflicting BOD.

19 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

 

I considered Recoverable Charge as well. But with it having potential to pop up more than once in combat, would it truly be a single charge then? Time plays a big part in the build. 

 

 

Would it be feasible to have a Recoverable Charge that powers up after every 12 Phase?

I used Recoverable Charge more to establish some baseline for what "only usable after Condition X" might be worth as a limitation.  While a charge recoverable every turn means it could be used multiple times in the same combat (which the RAW notes as a standard the GM can waive), a single recoverable charge could also be used as early as the first phase of combat.  Assuming a pure "power bar rises over time" model, the combat has to go on for two turns for the character to get two uses (that is, power up twice).

I think Recoverable Charges remains a reasonable model to base the limitation on.  If you expect the average combat to run for about 5 turns, then 4 recoverable charges (which would be -1/2 IIRC) would allow use of the power after each of 4 PS 12 recoveries in a 5-turn combat. That's still more limited, since it can't be used in the first turn, much less four times in rapid succession at the start of combat. 

Doc, I am sure I recall a "cooldown" in the past as well, but I can't remember where.

7 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

My problem with using Trigger or END Reserve for this is that you are actually paying points to limit the use of the power.

 

Trigger might be acceptable if it provided an additional attack that turn, a significant advantage in any combat, and if I was using the END reserve to track the bureaucracy, I would not be charging points for it.

 

Doc

END reserve started out as a limitation - 8x Reserve was a -0 limitation like 16 charges.  It became a Power in 4e.

When we're discussing, say, a 100 AP power with an END reserve, typically I see value - making that 0 END would cost another 50, which would buy a sizable END reserve.

Here, we're using it as a limiting factor. One use END reserve will only cost 5, but it needs some way to recover. It starts at zero, but that limitation on 5 points won't be worth a lot. We need a Heal that has low re-use time Triggered by whatever the Trigger is.  1d6 Heal would restore 1d6 END, so it has to go off 6 times to fill the bar. We have to override the rules to make its re-use more frequent than per turn, and it needs an auto-resetting trigger. Now, if we also slap on a limitation that the power costs normal END plus battery END, there's a savings, but it still seems like average usage 1/turn or less is more limiting than those points will suggest.

One option is a custom limitation.  Another might be a Dependence - that can be used to set conditions on powers, but this is only one power, so I don't like a Complication rather than a Limitation.

What about 1 Recoverable charge?  Normally, that would be a -1 1/4 limitation (two levels down the chart), and the charge would be recovered after combat.  This could recover during combat, but would not be usable until the character meets its recovery condition during the combat. That sounds like a reasonable trade-off, or at least a reasonable starting point for a limitation on the power. 

On 9/15/2023 at 6:28 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

What puzzles me about the 3pt HA cost is that the simplest fix of people abusing it is for the GM to not allow it. Just because you can buy +20 HA doesn’t mean you should. Also I blame players who knowingly took advantage of it. Now the end result is a Lower with a mandatory limitation (which if I recall did cause some ruffled feathers because Hero doesn’t mandate anything. Right? Am I right about that? Could be wrong).  So how much longer did the rules get added do to this?

That's fine for experienced Hero Gamers.  Is it obvious to a new player or GM that this one 60 point attack power is massively unbalanced?

On 9/11/2023 at 3:09 PM, Starlord said:

Many of those very useful...green, red and blue are nice.  Black is very good and purple is amazing.

PURPLE!!!  Imagine increasing the hours in the day by almost 50%!!!

On 9/11/2023 at 8:58 AM, Gauntlet said:

Of course, I hate that they took away Force Field as it makes their base value much higher, making it where you must have a much lower value of defense if you are using a multipower.

A lot of people really liked that 4e Hand Attack with a base value of 3 CP/1d6 so their 12d6 Blast could be in a Multipower with a +20d6 Hand Attack. If I am relying on that Multipower for attacks, I will have other defenses and a MP slot will be for turtling up.  Adding +20 PD and ED to a character whose defenses are on even the low end of campaign average seems pretty good to me - why does he need +30/+30?  I'd prefer +20/+20 at 0 END if I just recovered from KO with 3 STUN and 3 END!

23 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The most annoying villain I have encounters was Roadrunner.   He was a speedster that was incredibly difficult to hit and like to go out of his way to be annoying.   I still remember him dumping a McDonalds shake on my character and then dumping a coke on me, saying that shakes always made him thirsty.   He had a high DCV that made him really hard to hit and had a running dodge and a high enough DEX and skill levels he could dive for cover out of most area of effect attacks.   

 

I managed to catch him one time by waiting till he was jumping over me (to pour the coke on me) and put my tear gas arrow in the hex he was going to land in.  Not only did he not have the defense he took double damage from the attack so ended up getting stunned.   The attack lasted a turn, so he ended up being knocked out in his next phase.   I think I was one of the only characters to ever capture him.  
 

Now, is the annoying part that the character is hard to hit, can easily escape and requires considering new tactical options to defeat...

or that the character spends his phases humiliating the PC by dumping beverages on him? You can run well past the speed of sound, and the best use you can think to put that do is dumping fast food on people?  That's worse than the character who designs and builds super-scientific devices and uses them to rob jewellery stores and banks.

On 9/11/2023 at 5:41 PM, unclevlad said:

 

A couple more...

DCs in an attack.  This is significantly separate from character points.

Max DCs, as well as how often the GM will throw KAs out there against the players.  This has a major influence on how invest in defenses.  

And we've talked about it here, but it's still perhaps something of a fringe notion/consideration...SPDs.  

 

All good items - historically, these have not been presented so much as "campaign guidelines and dial settings" as extrapolated from sample characters - typically, characters whose expected usage (expected to go one on one against a single PC; expected to be a tough fight for a team of PCs,; etc.).  I've sometimes questioned whether those "back of 1e|" characters were intended to be reasonable solo villains (tougher than any one PC, but easily taken down by the team), with the expectation that PCs, at least starting PCs, would be more like those "wimpy" Geodesics.

As players, we built more towards going one on one against Shrinker, Pulsar, Dragonfly or Green Dragon.

It we think back far enough, Damage Resistance was flat cost (15 points for half defenses against KA BOD; 30 for full defenses; with either granting full defenses against KA STUN) and Armor cost 5 CP per +3 defenses.  Blend with that 1 CP/defense for force fields, but they cost END.  We've now got Armor that costs 3 CP per 2 defense; make it Costs END if you want an old-school force field, so repriced Armor and a higher AP force field, so pricing is consistent.

I would say those ad hoc decisions are still decisions. When you or I set up a Supers game, we have likely already set many of the dials not recognizing that we have done so.  We know that:

 - Without Hit Locations

 - Standard Supers point totals (we might consider this one, depending on the game)

 - Equipment must be purchased with points, not cash (and looting fallen opponents won't allow you to keep their stuff)

 - Knockback; Knockdown is a limitation

Until some poor new player who tries to read the books asks questions that are so obvious that old-school Hero players don't even recognize that there IS a question.

If the entire group is new to Hero and starts with the 6e (or 5e, maybe 4e but it had Supers stuff in the back if you bought the big book - but that won't help for a different genre) and has to figure out all those dial settings, coming away believing that Hero is super-complicated is a pretty predictable result.  Even though most of those dials are pre-set as "Superheroic" and "Heroic"  for most of us.  A quick chart setting the dials in the genre summaries could have done a lot - and putting them near the start of V2 instead of at the end might help those newer to Hero focus their read of the rules based on the game they want to play.

@Doc Democracy, pretty much any fixed cost ability has that issue.  Damage Reduction is a good example - the more STUN you would otherwise take, the more Defenses effectively added by Reduction.