Chris Goodwin

Like Chris said:
 
Watched came latrr-  one of the Champions-named supplements, but I don't remember if it was 2 or 3.
 
I will look it up for you if you'd like, but not tonight.  Just got in thirty minutes ago, putting today at fifteen hours of work and I've got to solve an upload problem before I collapse in the shower. 
 
You'd think I'd know it cold, since I play the old stuff, but the fact is we never used Watched more than two or three times in what-- nearly half a century?  It's no less stupid in an RPG than it was in the Highlander TV series:
 
I'm a watcher. 
What do you do? 
I watch. 
So you collect data and make records? 
Yeah; sure.  I guess that makes sense.  Mostly, though, I watch 
And when you see that one of us is prepared to make our move....? 
I'll watch. 
Watch what? 
Watch you make your move. 
You'll _watch_? 
Yep.  I'm a watcher. 
You won't try to stop me? 
Oh, heavens no!  I'm a watcher.  You'd need a stopper for that kind of thing. 
So...  You'll get a stopper? 
What?  No.  That's a go-get-a-stopper's job.  I'm a watcher. 
So what would you do? 
Watch.  I told you that.  I'm a watcher, and I'm very good at it. 
So when I behead the noble count of so-and-such, you're just going to _watch_? 
That's what I do. 
And that's _all_?  Nothing else? 
Well that writing stuff down thing you mentioned-- that seems cool.  I guess I could try that.  You know, unless it interferes with my watching.  Can't put watching on the back burner.  Always something to watch, you immortals.  Always, always, always...   Say?  Why are you shaving your legs?  Your a guy. 
We'll I've got a bicycle race tomorrow. 
Oh yeah, that's right!  I've got to watch it..
Seriously? 
What? 
You're going to watch me race a bicycle.?
Of course.  I'm a watcher, and a damned good one!
Why?
Why what? 
Why are you watching?  Why are there watchers?! 
Everyone needs a job, watching doesn't require three years experience, and everything else involves actually having to _do_ something...  Did you know that when you killed that guy over in that alley last summer I could see everyrhing from my air-conditioned booth in that diner across the street?  Man, that's the way to work, right there.  Big ol' root beer float, air conditioning, and more watching than you can fit in two eyes.... 
 
. "Watched" just doesn't pan out to be anything remotely interesting.  "harassed by" works better.  That's what we use as a half-value Hunted. 
 
Watched (and by extension, Watchers) is (are) stupid. 
 
 

Back in the day, Watched and Hunted were separate disads.  I'm not Duke, but I don't remember us using Watched all that often with Champions; if we did, we probably doubled the FH/DI values and rounded up to the nearest 5 Points.  I'll have to check those books again to see how that matches up to 3rd edition numbers.

Used books in the hundreds don't exist.
 
I mean, they _do_, but what you're seeing there are "book pirates."
 
No; I'm serious.  These guys run bots and crawlers and interesting algorithms; most of them have no actual stock-- seriously-- _none_.   Their bots key on searches for books, then perform their own searches, find the books, and return a pre-generated add / website entry to include a pic from where they found (if applicable) and a copy of text (usually a vague bit of descriptive text.  The better ones will have this text end on a complete sentence instead of after X amount of characters.   ).
 
The price is (P)x1.M, where M is the percentage of markup programmed into the bot.  If you order the book, the bot orders the book from where it found it, etc, etc, etc.
 
The guy "Operating" the site (I say that in quotes because most of these are fire-and-forget) not only never touches the book, he won't even know you ever ordered anything.  He just gets his money and keeps sipping margaritas.    I've been collecting books since you had to track down specialists to find them from all over the world.  I watched the pirates grow until they became their own problem     
 
 
Seriously; they have become their own problem!  There are so many of them now that it's possible to find two hundred listings for the same single book-- single as in "only one copy exists and only one person owns it."  The bots are getting their info from other bots, who got it from other bots, who got it from other bots, and on and on.  It's at the point were you can spend three hundred bucks on a book, that money ends up going to eighty different people, and the only extant copy of the book in the whole chain sells for ten bucks to the first bot and ships to you!  
 
 
There are signs, but honestly, there are so many people trying to stop this practice that you can find entire websites dedicated to how you can get a better idea of what's a pirate site and what isn't.  (A good hint is an RPG book with a dying audience going for hundreds of dollars.  )
 

Awesome job Duke!

Woo-hoo! 
 
Okay, folks, Jason has AC issues 1 & 2 now.  I'm just scanning them; I'm not doing any of the clean up or restoration, nor do I know who is.  I am scanning in 1200 DPI and sending them as PNG (my current set up doesn't do vector files.     ) to make sure they get the best head start I can give them.  I would love to do it from start to finish, but there is a serious time problem. 
 
 
On the plus side, I have been given carte blanche to make better copies of anything currently available in the HERO Store!   It's going to take a lot of time, as I'm working without my good system, and with way less time than I had when I was working my old job, but I'm excited!
 
I mean, I can't be the only one tired of looking at that weirdly-cleaned up Enemies book or that partially-counterfeit 1e rules book with the 2e character sheets, can I? 
 
There is nothing on the near horizon (save perhaps my personal 2e PDF, which is ahhh "vahra anahs....", but the one in the store is pretty good as-is (though mine prints better ;).  For the moment, scanning AC is my priority, so don't look for anything any time soon unless it's something I have already done and remembered to submit. 
 
I just got excited and wanted to share. 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I don't think a "complete" game necessarily has to include the full rules, but it has to be enough for you to be able to sit down and run a game.  
 
The various D&D 5e starter kits (the Starter Set, Stranger Things, Rick & Morty, Essentials) to me constitute a "complete game", because with any of those (all of which I believe include sample adventures) you could sit down and run a game.  I might also call them "minimally complete" because without other materials you can't do much more than that, but with the Players Handbook and all the free downloads (SRD, basic rules, etc.) you've got enough for years of play.  
 
Fantasy Hero Complete, with the additional electronic downloads including pregen player characters, spells, monsters, setting, and adventure, is almost a complete game.  I say almost because the Val of Stalla sample adventure isn't quite a fully fleshed out adventure, but it's pretty close.  It would need a plot of some kind and/or a number of NPCs with their own wants, needs, and conflicts brewing that the PCs can get involved in.  (Elsewhere I've said that it is complete, but I'm partially retracting that statement.)
 
I'm okay with, e.g., rulebook X plus additional material book Y equals a complete game.  

By this time tomorrow night, Jason should have scans of issue one-- and hopefully issue two-- in his hands.
 
Guys:  I am not doing the cleanup on these scans; I don't know who is.  I can't vouch for the final results of the project, but I will be sending 1200dpi scans to allow the best possible start to this project!  
 
 

Fear is all in your mind anyway.
 
 
Seriously, though:
 
Here's the thing with HERO:
 
There is no rule for fear.  None.  Absolutely _none_.  Even Presence Attacks are about cowing others with-- well, the force of your presence, your personality, your sure and certain confidence.  Over the years, a F*k ton of people have decided to interpret that as fear and being scary, especially since the charts are relatable to fear and being scary.  They are also relatable to being inspirational, but we didn't move that way, in spite of this being a game ostensibly modeling _heroes_.
 
There are also some rules for fear.  That is to say, there are rules for using PRE as part of your fear mechanism from the old 4e Horror HERO supplement, as well as rules (more of them there than anywhere else) for "Custom characteristics," custom mechanics, etc, and rules that say any rule you come up with is a completely valid rule.
 
There is also the relatively poor definition of a couple of different characteristics, but the one I like to focus on is EGO (unless I'm using a custom characteristic for a particular game).  I like this because while it is poorly-defined with regard to the other characteristics, most people agree that EGO represents your will power and strength / presence of mind.
 
Frankly, I think that's the best definition for fear and being scared / cowed through fear:  you can be scared, yet have enough will power, enough presence of mind, to keep going, to set it aside.  Right up until the scanners come and the heads start bursting.  Or whatever.
 
Look at it this way:  you can use a Presence Attack and declare that it's based entirely on your ability to inspire a desire to be better, a desire to tackle a challenge, a desire to act with discipline...   Absolute same game-effects, but _no one_ you are using it on is being swayed by fear.  No one.  You're Captain Mother America Theresa or something, but are in no way terrifying anyone.   (Remember the idea that mechanics and special effects are _separate_, and the way your Presence Attacks are made- the source of their influence-- that's a SPECIAL EFFECT.  You get to pick those.  Somewhere along the way, the vocal majority decided it meant "scariness," but let's be completely honest here:  you can't defend from someone else's scariness with your own scariness.  You just end up scaring each other, realistically.  Yes, you can pick it as your special effect because the rules let you, but realistically, scariness is the _least_ logical definition of the Presence Characteristic.
 
 
So consider fear as being a special _type_ of Presence attack, but target EGO instead.  Target the thing that actually _does_ decide if you can muster the courage and fortitude to continue on.  Perhaps model a continuing barrage of horrific elements as a Drain versus EGO, sapping your resistance, making it so much more likely that you'll succumb to your fears.  Use an EGO roll to muster courage and continue.
 
The Commander has a Presence Attack based on his air of command and his forceful personality and his iron-will and his strict attention to fairness and discipline and his ability to inspire those same things in other people.  He's _not_ terrifying you into rallying and making that final charge.  That doesn't make sense.  In fact, using the Versus EGO model, he can _still_ inspire you in that very same way, make you rally, take up arms, and that terrifying thing from the shadows of oblivion strikes enough fear into your heart that in spite of your inspired courage, you drop your weapon and scream, because there is something so horrifying, so _primal_ and disturbing in that onerous palpable evil that your own force of personality is not just insufficient, but utterly useless against it.
 
At any rate, it's how I prefer to model fear-based attacks against the psyche.  There's no reason you can't model it with a straight-up EGO attack, really.  None what-so-ever.  Find something that works for you from all angles, or tweak something that's close, or create something new whole-cloth.
 
 
Just have fun with it.
 
 

I notice a query from Zarthose to Steve that I think will come over here.  Might be worth getting a head start on the issue but I thought I would broaden it out.
 
How do you handle PC complications?  Hunteds and other things have a chance of turning up.  I frontload all of this.  When I create a scenario, my first action is to roll for all of the complications of the characters likely to play.  I then try to weave those things into the scenario from the ground up - I dont want things bolted on or causing a distraction from the main action.  It also makes it easier to build in the disadvantages related to powers not working in certain circumstances.  If a hero has "only in Hero ID" on his powers then I will, every now and again be building scenes where this is going to become an issue.  Where DNPCs feature, it is easier to involve them when the scenario is created with the explicit knowledge they will be involved.
 
So.  My system is to roll the dice for all complications (sometimes simply based on the fact that a complication or disadvantage should impair 1/4 of the time or more).  Once I have all those details I can begin to weave a story around them (sometimes the way the complications fall down, the implied story is better than the one I was thinking of!!).
 
How do other people manage it?

Doc

Yes. I prefer 4th edition (BBB), but may go back to 3rd (Danger International specifically), to run an “The Expanse”’like Hero campaign for new players. Thinner rules, but still handling skills and hit locations. I ran FH for decades on the original FH book (I was one of “Doug’s Thugs”). 6th edition decoupling just seemed “wrong” to me, as well as the deletion of comeliness. I’ll play it,’l but Inprobably won’t GM 6th edition. 

My first experience with Champions was Third Edition (it was a gift I received) in the late 1980s and have collected/played various Hero System games ever since. Most recently, I have been using Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete at local game events along with converting previous campaign materials to 6th Edition. Although 6th Edition has its strengths over previous versions, I still find myself drawn to those earlier editions for various reasons (e.g. graphic design, style/tone of writing), especially when introducing Champions to brand new players who would be turned off by the rules-heavy nature of 5th and 6th Edition.
 
Have other people in this forum experienced this also?

Anyone can make a list of abusive abilities.  That doesn't prove anything about what might happen in an actual game.  

Dont see Duke in this thread, so why dont I throw a Duke-ism out.  If you buy LS-usable by others, then the bubble itself is simply the SFX of that power - you see a bubble of force surround the person.  How do you pop the bubble - define that.  If it is not for imprisoning people, then is there a huge need for defences?  You can give it a reasonable defence as part of the SFX.
 
We do fall into the trap of trying to cost everything, even when it is not entirely necessary....
 
 
Doc

Thanks Chris!

Just in case you would thinks have not been moving forward ... 
 

Should be available now (update just posted).  Note that they're both containers -- they'll need ending tags to match.

Danger International, p.49: "When a character tries to escape from being held, use STR versus STR Rolls (see Characteristic Rolls)."  So by strict RAW for DI, it's not roll-STR-damage-dice-and-compare-BODY, but rather a CHA Roll vs. CHA Roll contest.  The Escape maneuver gives +3 to the martial artist's STR Roll for this STR Roll vs. STR Roll contest.

If you're asking about something like a saving throw, most likely not unless the poison description calls for one.  Most of them have listed defenses against them.  

I've literally spent decades fighting the misconception that Fantasy Hero requires players to work out point costs for every object their character picks up.  Simply making everything purchased solves the issue because you won't have any players.

That.  That right there.
 
Now here's how you do it:
 
Okay, I agree with D-- most GMs will not let a player have a one-sided power.  However, I have allowed, now and again, a "Mega Buster" type attack with all kinds of limitations and drawbacks etc-- sort of a "get out of one combat free" card, with massive side effects or other reasons it generally stays in the can unless the character is in danger or getting absolutely killed or whatever--
 
Mostly, though, it's because you propose a fun exercise!
 
Keep in mind that HERO doesn't do absolutes or infinities, and to be honest with you, outside of Combat, it's pretty lousy at cumulatives, too.
 
However, without putting a lot of thought into it, I would suggest straight from the top of my head buying the first bomb.
 
Then buy a single die of Aid, Standard Effects, Zero Endurance, (I straight up don't remember if it costs END at the moment.  I will probably remember the moment I sign off.    ) and push the limit-- the Maximum Aid you can apply-- to seven points beyond "I can't afford it, ever."  (And likely you can't, because as I said: HERO doesn't do cumulatives really well.  However, you can backpedal to older editions that don't have default limits on Adjustment Powers and try it there.  I want to warn you, though, that buying that Fade / Return rate up in the older editions will _murder_ your budget, since the only step on the Time Chart is "Segment."   )
 
Then buy your Fade / Return rate to a point that you are comfortable that you can keep these "extra bombs" around for effectively ever.  Note (or develop a custom limitation) that once you use The Bomb, the Aid pool is completely empty and you have to start over.
 
Now this is assuming that all these bombs together result in one single larger bomb.
 
If you are instead adding an Autofire or additional Charges-- well Charges is easy enough.  Autofire is going to get pretty gross, as the current rules seem to assume that you're going to stop at 10 shots.  However, you can extrapolate from the current rules just what's involved in making "infinite Autofire" up to whatever point you think will cover you.
 
 
At any rate, it really is just a mental exercise, because if you are really going to try to model "effectively infinite bombs," the price is also going to be "effectively infinite."  
 
 
 
 
 
 

No worries, I didn't take it that way. I already knew what you'd say and inserted it into my mind for you! 
 
 
So I guess I should have been clearer. Multipowers aren't necessary for what I was saying. I'm riffing off of this conversation earlier this year, and I haven't been able to get it out of my head. The whole discussion then was about dividing magic costs or not, a la Fantasy HERO Complete dividing spells by 3 to reduce cost (If I remember correctly). Again, this amounts to  Multipower without calling it a framework: you just get the cost benefit for free. 
 
So there's nothing that says you couldn't charge points for everything, as suggested by Doc Democracy in the link, but keep the DCs low. No need for Multipowers either. But the ongoing debate in Fantasy HERO is how to keep free equipment balanced with purchased spells. Simply making everything purchased solves the issue. The equipment builds are all available if you get the Equipment Guide, or any number of sources. Use those guidelines, and add another Limitation: weapon of opportunity, and you're good to go. So a fighter has a 2d6 KA with all the typical data (OAF, real weapon, roll required, etc., and add "weapon of opportunity") and he can use any weapon he has a Weapon Familiarity with. If he loses it, he's without his "power" until he finds another weapon. He can also have an RKA to go with it, with a similar build. Armor would follow the same model, with PD caps based on the campaign guidelines. Make them really low for low fantasy, or really high for Fantasy Champions. Levers, dials and switches to your taste, and we no longer have to argue about how much a spell should cost to "balance" the free sword that requires a WF of some sort. The arguments become moot (ok, who am I fooling? The arguments continue on just because . . .) and we have some internal consistency.
 
I know, I'm taking this discussion sideways, but it really comes back to the same issue as we usually see: how to balance magic with mundane equipment. All that mundane equipment, by the way, that was built with the Powers rules in the first place anyway. It's all just special effects for the powers. Giant sword-wielding plate-male wearing warrior? Same as a KA casting, Armor casting wizard. Just different special effects. Spell ends? Re-cast it. Sword breaks? Just get another one. 
 
Ok, that's just a little bit more description for what I'm proposing. Just another way to conceive of it.
 
One quick edit: I forgot that the discussion I linked was revolving around Resource Pools for magical items and equipment. I misremembered it as Multipowers and inserted my foot into this discussion. Sorry. But the point still holds: once people can start buying magic items in Fantasy HERO, all bets are off as to why we all shouldn’t be paying points for our equipment anyway. 
 
I actually prefer low fantasy with little to no magic, but it still holds, just with much lower campaign limits. Even heroic level games like Danger International offered ways to use character points to buy more money in order to get better equipment. So why not just eliminate that mediating step and just pay points for equipment?

Ditto!
 
D&D had me _convinced_ that I hated fantasy role playing even more than I dislike the genre overall.
 
Our original "hey, let's play fantasy with Champions!" game was something we just sort of _slipped_ into, and I have to say that the difference between "fantasy HERO (cough-cough-*champions*-cough cough) and D&D wasn't just extreme, it was both liberating and eye-opening.
 
However, I _do_ tend to discourage Lightning Mages from wearing metal armor.
 
 

My own words above are the sort of dismissive drive-by that I normally despise, so I'll illuminate a bit. 
 
By Fantasy Champions, I mean: tending toward higher power levels, most of the superheroic combat and character options, a bit less GM oversight over world design.   Pay points for everything, generally Power-focused builds.  Characters get built to DC/DEF/CV caps.  
 
By Fantasy Hero, I mean:  lower power levels, Normal Characteristic Maxima, generally Skill-focused builds, a world and magic system(s) designed by the GM.  Combat options: Bleeding, Hit Locations, Impairing/Disabling, Knockdown, Encumbrance, normal equipment doesn't cost points.  
 
It shouldn't surprise anyone that I favor the latter play style.  Given that this thread is specifically discussing Multipowers for magic, I'm not going to say this play style precludes their use, and I've been at least partly defending magic as Multipower herein... my tendency as a GM is to more heavily restrict magic as part of a magic system, which means that if Multipowers are used for magic, they fall under whatever those restrictions are.  
 
I'm pretty strongly against charging points for normal equipment.  I think it's for historical reasons; my preferences were pretty heavily formed by the standalone, Hero-as-house-system games, rather than the universal HERO System.  It's also partly because I don't want to have to work out all of the point costs for normal equipment.  (edit)  It's partly because, if a character's sword, or his sword and daggers, or his sword, daggers, shield, and crossbow, are part of a Multipower, it starts looking more like a "Brick Tricks" Multipower.  (/edit)  And partly because, to me, the combination of lower point values, Normal Characteristic Maxima, Strength Minima on weapons, encumbrance, and so on, seems to give a more organic feel than does building to caps.  
 
All of the above having been said, I have played in a short-lived Fantasy Champions game that I quite enjoyed.  I hoped it would go on longer, in fact.  

My own approach to that has been that normal equipment is bought with 'gold', not character points. However a player IS allowed to buy equipment that is 'better' than regular gear, but they have to pay character points for it. Usually that holds true for me in 'any' fantasy campaign, and I would consider including it for superheroes.
 
The best fantasy campaign I ever played in by the way was a five year long game of 600 point 'fantasy champions'. We didn't define it that way, but that is what it amounted to. We had a morally ambiguous ultra-vampire, a Tarzan character Burroughs would have been proud of, an immortal warrior as old as the universe (my character), and a sorceress with a huge VPP that enabled a spell book literally a half inch thick of predefined spells. The game ended when we successfully resolved the main quest of saving the continuity of sapience from a universe destroying event.
 
None of our characters actually had a multipower, but I doubt our GM would have blinked if we did.

You're most welcome. You'll find that the forums are a great resource! You've got centuries of cumulatively applied experience to draw from. You'll also find that if you ask one question, you'll get 18 answers! The real problem will be narrowing down the choices that work for you.