David Blue

I agree with what you say, Lord Liaden.
 
Reportedly Ron Edwards wants Champions Now read, interpreted, played, and gamemastered as though we had never read or played anything before. One should go into it with complete naivety, and learn it as a wholly new thing.
 
I don't know that I like that idea, but judging by the way the book is written that is indeed what the author wants. He has a different starting point from any version of Champions or Hero System that we've seen before, and he puts that before the rules, or rather doing things his way and not in some way one has experience with is his first and most important rule.
 
In that context, with gamemasters and players forcing themselves to stick to an attitude of fearless naivety, there is some simple rule like the ratio rule to limit what will go wrong, or the limit will be reached when your campaign crashes, rolls, and burns at the outset.
 
I support the ratio rule. It is not an adequate substitute for a gamemaster who is experienced, and who wisely remembers and applies his experience, but it is a lot better than what would happen without it.

The Vehicles book for 6E ended up in Limbo, I'm sorry to say -- it never got published. But the 5E version should serve just as well. The Vehicle Sourcebook you mentioned is a companion to that one, and is a collection of write-ups.

I'm making my way through it for the second time. It helps a bit having seen everything once already, and therefore having some idea where Ron is (eventually) going with some of the stuff.
 
I feel like most of the mechanical stuff needed to build a character is covered in chapters 6 (Structural Mechanics) and 11 (Fighting Words). Chapter 7 (Villain Making) also looks to be helpful for building villains...if you consider it a different process than building heroes. I never have before, but I'm willing to give it a shot.
 
I feel like the book could really benefit from an Index. The organization is fairly internally consistent, but it is neither intuitive not immediately obvious just from the chapter titles in the Table of Contents.
 
I also feel like some kind of aftermarket document--maybe just a couple of pages--explaining the significant mechanical differences between Champions Now and previous iterations would be helpful.
 
Just a few observations on my part. I feel like it has potential...or would have, if I had a gaming group.

How often does Captain America's shield get taken away? IIRC, almost never. If that's how often it gets taken away, than it is not getting taken away enough to count as a Focus. Of course, special effects are supposed to more or less balance out. So this sometimes getting taken away should be balancing out benefits that the character is getting from the special effects.

While ideasmith has already answered this, I'll have a stab at it too, if only because it will highlight my own misconceptions. (And I've already got it mostly written.)

The ratio is a balancing mechanism. It measures the difference between Active Points and Real Points, and puts a constraint on that difference. As a result, a character can't, in theory, be excessively powerful for their particular point total.
 
In addition, it helps to keep character builds simpler than they are in other versions of Champions, by discouraging the needless use of Limitations. (This is also addressed through considerations of Character Concept and a bunch of other things.)
 
It's perfectly fine for a character to have a ratio of 100. They won't necessarily be under powered compared to a character with a ratio of 119, especially since no characters are invulnerable. On the other hand, a character with a higher ratio can fill out out their character concept a bit more compared to one forced to leave things out.
 
Conceptually: how much of a problem is it that your character needs to shout "Shazam!" before using their powers, rather than just turning up having already done that? It can be the same character. The difference can be the one between the character operating solo, and them working as part of a team.
 
The 119 figure seems a bit arbitrary, but meh.

In the introduction to Situations, I believe Edwards cites the "Demon in a Bottle" storyline where Tony Stark battles the worst enemy he ever faces -- his own alcohol addiction. Stan Lee had already broken the back of the Comics Code Authority by examining drug abuse and its consequences in comics. I need to read those stories, because the panels of them I've seen are heroism.
 
A person's demons -- the things that live in their minds and souls and eat away at them little by little -- make really good Situations. But not all Situations are negative; if you and your spouse are on the same team, and both player-characters, then you draw some strength from the relationship. But it also causes problems in your lives...

My hard copy arrived yesterday, just in time for some needed reading on Mother's Day. My Mom bought me my first Champions set back in 1982, so sorta fitting. Anyway, I certainly like it after a read or two through ... still need to sit down and create some characters, etc. ("the usual"). 
 
The organization's a little odd, and like others I'd like an index. That said, I like the discussion (or lecture) as the book unfolds, and the integrations to comic history and publishing is something I'm enjoying.
 
Probably the most likely version of Champions for me to run for the foreseeable future. I think this, and the earlier Strike Force, have been my favorite Hero projects in recent memory.

Hi all, new to the forums and coming on here after buying C-Now. This is my first Ron Edwards rpg so I really am not sure what I am getting into but I've always had an appreciation for Champions and Hero System. I can already tell by flipping through the first few pages that C-Now is very different than the other versions of the game. 
 
It's nice to meet you all.

Well, Ron hasn't used the term "narrativist" for more than 12 years. 
 
The dice falling where they may is a perfect partner to the "now." The concept is to establish a starting condition full of motivated and planful NPCs, let play determine how any conflicts turn out, then visit how that changes the motivations and plans of the NPCs.
 
Each now is a list of NPC cast members with their motivations and any actions they intend to take in the next session. You can read about this in the chapter called "The Now."
 
During a session, the GM plays the NPCs to follow their plans until the players get in the way. If the players don't get in the way, the NPCs just proceed uninfluenced. If the two collide, then play (including but not always dice rolls) determines  outcomes. No planned outcomes. No gifts from the GM. 
 
Then the GM creates a new Now sheet, where the NPCs adjust their attitudes and plans based on what just happened.
 
Things the GM does not do include: require a particular outcome from a conflict, require a particular course of action, set things up so only one path will work, or invent discoveries and conflict in front of the characters wherever they decide to go.
 
This evolution aims to create what Ron has termed "Story Now."
 

This could be the GM or the Genre.  Character death is pretty rare in four-color Supers.  It's more common in fantasy games, and even more so in horror games, traditionally.  You can vary the DCs to Defenses ratio, or use other tricks to make a game more (AP, Penetrating) or less (higher rDEF) lethal.
 
Back in the day, I recall a player describing Champions as "if you play half decent, you're unlikely to die, and if you play well, you likely win in the scenario."  D&D was "if you play well, you're unlikely to die, and you have a decent shot at winning in the scenario."   Call of Cthulhu was "if you play more or less perfectly, explore every research and preparatory option and get fairly lucky, you probably have a better than 50% shot at living to see the next scenario."
 
He also made the observation that CoC characters were extremely rapid to create, Hero was a very complex and time-consuming character creation process and D&D fell somewhere in the middle, closer to CoC.  The more work it requires to create a character, the more they need to be survivors if players are going to keep playing.  Investing an evening in building a character who dies in the first encounter does not endear the game.

I agree with what you say, Lord Liaden.
 
Reportedly Ron Edwards wants Champions Now read, interpreted, played, and gamemastered as though we had never read or played anything before. One should go into it with complete naivety, and learn it as a wholly new thing.
 
I don't know that I like that idea, but judging by the way the book is written that is indeed what the author wants. He has a different starting point from any version of Champions or Hero System that we've seen before, and he puts that before the rules, or rather doing things his way and not in some way one has experience with is his first and most important rule.
 
In that context, with gamemasters and players forcing themselves to stick to an attitude of fearless naivety, there is some simple rule like the ratio rule to limit what will go wrong, or the limit will be reached when your campaign crashes, rolls, and burns at the outset.
 
I support the ratio rule. It is not an adequate substitute for a gamemaster who is experienced, and who wisely remembers and applies his experience, but it is a lot better than what would happen without it.

Yeah, that sounds a lot like the early years of the game, when many players and GMs fell into the power-gaming trap without the experience to know the trouble they were getting themselves into trying to play such characters. Hero has evolved greatly in terms of guidelines and recommendations to minimize the worst abuses (selling back all your stats is a big no-no in the default rules, for example). The whole gaming hobby has also gotten more sophisticated. But there's still no substitute for a Game Master willing to tell his players, "No" when they want to do something that will damage play. Preferably explaining why. Of course beginning GMs frequently lack the experience and/or assertiveness to make that call, let alone know when to make it.

As reference for Champions Now, it's really worthwhile to buy access to the Marvel Comics online and read the 60s through early 70s of Spider-Man and the FF and whatever else takes your fancy. You can also get anthologies from most libraries. Ron sees the original Champions as inspired by this era and that is indeed what he's trying to capture.

I suspect Edwards wanted to make the campaigns he inspires so unique that there's no point to a villain book -- the GM will send in customized adversaries as they need them. All a villain book would do is be a time-saver for the GM who needs a "filler episode", which is something players may not have time for as they proactively go about attempting to reach their campaign goals. Ruby Red, for example, has an agenda she wants to address. She won't be stopping random robberies on the streets of Hartford or doing nightly "patrols" looking for trouble to stop. Those would be just wastes of her time. But she'll stop what she's doing and come running if a teammate needs her help, knowing that teammate would do the same for her if she was in trouble.
 
 

OK, I might create a character in Real Time, just to show how it works.
 
However, I'll do the Two Statements before I go on the clock, because usually they'll be handed to you by the GM. I'll also use a bit of "here's one I prepared earlier", because I've been mucking about with this game for a couple of years.
 
1. Australia's superheroes don't just protect Australia, but much of the Southern Hemisphere too.
 
2. Globe-spanning adventures start at the Hall of Champions, Toowoomba.
 
OK, by my computer it's 8:45. I'll open the PDF now.
 
The character will be called Southern Cross. He's a star-crossed lover.
 
Situations:
30 The Lover: DNPC. Lydia Weaver, Journalist.
Her situations:
(15 Hunted (Dr Nefarious, One Person, Includes Superpowers, Manipulative))
(10 Psych: Loves Dr Nefarious. (Happens sometimes, Irrational))
(5 Psych: Loves Southern Cross. (Happens sometimes))
 
15 Secret ID: Dr Alex Bruhl, Archeologist.
20 Psych: Needs to be a Big Damn Hero. (Happens a lot, Irrational)
15 Psych: Loves Lydia. (Happens a lot, Visible Expression)
20 Hunted: The Red Herring (One Person, Includes Superpowers, Ruinous)
 
100 points of situations. Some awkward choices had to be made. Keep a record of it for creating future characters.
 
Currently 9:02 by my computer.
 
Characteristics: I'll do this in two passes.
100 points on everything but Strength and Defense.
 
10 Presence 4d6
0 Body 10
 
Derived:
Recovery 10
Stunned 10
Knockout 20
Endurance 30
 
50 Speed 6
30 Dexterity 14-
0 Int 11-
0 Ego 11-
 
(90 points so far.)
 
Skills (from Char budget)
5 Detective Work 11-
 
(95 points so far)
 
Powers (Including Strength, Defense, Martial Arts)
30 Strength 8d6
10 Martial Attacks (11d6 Martial Punch, 14d6 Martial Kick)
(Endurance management hint: no need to use full Strength with attacks.)
 
Multiform (Maybe Telekinesis, "Star Powers" or something equally nonsensical)
20 Pool
4 1. Flight 10"
3 2. Long Distance Flight 5", Planetary
 
(67 for "powers" so far. 162 total.)
 
13 Defense 23
25 Resistant Defense 5
 
200 points total.
 
It's now 9:20 by my computer. It's taken 35 minutes to get this far, including regular referral to the PDF and thinking time. Transcribing him onto a character sheet would add a bit more time, plus he needs a picture.
 
Is the character perfect? No. Interesting? Potentially. He's a Big Damn Hero who can operate across much of the planet, but still can't get it together with the person he loves.
 
In combat he's pretty tough, but can be taken down by any number of unconventional attacks.
 
Oh yes, his ratio is 100.
 
I might have made some mistakes, but a GM will check for them anyway.
 
I only referred to Chapter 6 in the book.
 
 
 

Maybe we should stick to what the newcomer needs to get started - when he starts his "I love Hero and I'd really like more on this, where can I get it?" thread, we can give him the next books to buy...

Yes...I agree with Hugh Neilson. For the newbie (no ofence), all you need on day one is Champions Complete, a fist full of six sided dice, plenty of paper, at least one other friend, and the imagianation of you and the friend/s playing.
 
On day one your not ready for Doctor Destroyer anyways. Heck, I'm not ready for the bad doctor, and I have been playing since the "Big Blue Book". (Champions 4th edition/Hero System Rulebook 1st Edition, when the universal game system was finaly recognised over at Hero Games).

Also if you play alot having Hero Designer will make your life very much easier. It makes characters, computers, vehicles etc. Also it will print out Combat Record sheets (with all of the PC's phases with characters in Dex order).

I can tell you.  I can tell you because I have like five of them.     
 
This is what it comes with:
 
GM screen:  5 panels (largest I've seen) filled with charts on both sides.  _However_-- 
 
the resource kit is for 5e.  So certain things on it might not jibe up with what you're playing.  Honestly, though, I suspect it will be "close enough."  That being said, the GM screen is greyscale on a white background, with the greyscale lines running through the charts, making them just as big a pain in the butt to read as the same charts in the books.  Yes; you can more easily follow the lines across the chart.  No; black on a grey background is _not_ the ideal way to format reading material.
 
Still, if you can tolerate a 5e screen, it's a fine one, filled with more than you will ever need to have "at a glance," and even better, _most_ of the stuff is repeated on both sides, so the players don't have to keep asking you the same things over and over again (depending on where they're sitting: it's a _big_ screen, and they can't read the whole thing unless they're dead-across from you).
 
There are paper doll miniatures (don't get excited: they are black and white), Fantasy, sci-fi and -- well, they say modern day; I say paramilitary.  Tomato; pineapple.....   I won't lie-- they aren't _great_, but they are reasonable enough.  Oh- don't forget they are the 1" = 2m scale (what's that?  15mm?  
 
There are three maps (one of the two reasons I own so many), all of which are double sided-- the most striking of which is a spaceship cockpit and -- ta-da!  The old Rose's map, meaning that this map has been available for every edition except 6e.   Oh-- and for some reason, they decided to do it as a one-off, altering the spelling on the sign and the light posts and sidewalks.  God only knows why, but it doesn't matter.  Again: 1" = 2m.
 
Then the _other_ reason I own so many of them:
 
There is a booklet, under 50 pages (I think 48 pages?) that is, to me, the absolute best version of 5e:  it's better than Sidekick.  You can, with a passing familiarity of the rules, play a game out of that booklet.  I mean everything from making a character to running and adventure.  That thing is all you need.    If you've been around long enough, you've seen the weird tendency of "how can I get a simplified version of this game to teach someone the rules?" threads.  Sidekick(s) get recommended a lot, and those "HERO in two pages" things get recommended a lot.   For what it's worth: _NO_; HERO in two pages is frackin' _useless_ to teach someone who to play HERO.  What is is sort of good at is teaching a handful of the most common terms, and providing an order of operations of combat and skills use.  Period.  That is _not_ , by any stretch of the imagination, "teaching someone to play HERO."  Truthfully, the 48-page booklet could do with a bit of detail, but I'd rather hand that to someone than I would that massive 5-revised and say "Read this tonight and you'll know a lot more about what's going on."   
 
Remember that the original rules set, back in 1e, was about 50 pages.  It was sufficient, then, and Steve found a way to make it sufficient this time around, too.   I'd tell you more about it, but I don't have one anywhere in the house-- they are all at various players' houses, being used as character builder references and teaching one young lady how to play the game.
 
 
You want my opinion?  This doesn't get recommended enough.  It just doesn't.
 
 
 
Duke
 

In Iron Man 2 I saw Tony Stark spending experience points in his home boxing ring.
 
Iron Man is a good advertisement for being generous enough with experience points that player characters can do reasonable things to improve themselves and have those things work like they should.

I haven't played 4th ed Champions in a while, but still regard it as the best version of the game. As for using it for a PbP, I say play what you like and are comfortable with.

I agree strongly.  You cannot hold a player's personal limitations against their character. If someone is terrible at coming up with soliloquies for their presence attack, consider the best they can do to be a great one.  Don't treat their soliloquy as terrible just because they are bad at it.
 
Related: puzzles and riddles that test the player's ability to solve them instead of the character's.  This is ROLE PLAYING and as such you should be checking how good the character is.  I play RPGs to do things and go places I cannot personally - its a sort of wish fulfilment as well as storytelling.
 
I could rant on this for pages as it is an enormous pet peeve with game designers.  Its okay to put puzzles and riddles and such into games as long as you allow the skill of the characters to produce hints, details, and information to help solve the problem.  Requiring the players to figure out your perfect riddle or fail is not role playing, its you being a jackass as a GM.

High Presence stat add in tactics, teamwork for a start

I think it was a PC trying something silly & his GM went along with it part of the way.  If we are assuming Iron Man 3 was a Champions Session, "House Party Protocol" was Stark's player being cute and trying to make an army out of his backup suits/extra foci and some inventor rolls.  His GM let him get away with it once but declared that they all came apart if they took any damage or failed a dex roll.  He was then informed he wasn't allowed to do that anymore.
 
In later movies, he actually bought the Iron Legion as followers but they were usurped by Ultron.  He then appeared to give up on armies of troopers and went nanotech, AKA he re-spent his points and rolled the followers (along with a bunch of XP) into buying off his Foci limits entirely.  It looked like he had OIHID during Infinity Wars (He had to activate his chest unit, which Endgame showed us was removable) but by Endgame he didn't seem to have any limits at all anymore on using his Nanites.

He didn’t spend point on the house as a base. Base point we’re from that funky sky scraper in Manhattan. His house in Malibu ( Point Dume), was just a special effect and , well,?the GM decided to take it away.