How would you simulate a great team leader like Cyclops and Captain America in 5th edition?

[dean day]

There is no Leadership skill, so how would you simulate the really great comic leaders who have a real effect on combat for their teams? please give me some ideas how to model this.

[Mr. R]

High Presence stat add in tactics, teamwork for a start

[HeroGM]

26 minutes ago, Mr. R said:

High Presence stat add in tactics, teamwork for a start

 

Agreed - Dump as many points as possible into those.

[Hugh Neilson]

Aid powers that enhance CVs and/or Teamwork skill for teammates could be considered.

[Sketchpad]

Buffs to Defenses (like Combat Luck), including a PRE Defense. Tactics powers that allow things like Castling, or Healing.

[dmjalund]

the ability to gift people use of 1 level of SPD (for one turn) would be useful

[Christopher R Taylor]

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High Presence stat add in tactics, teamwork for a start

 

In addition, you can have an Aid that leaders can use to give CV, defenses, presence defense, etc.

[Scott Ruggels]

A good start, but a lot of it is good roleplay. Be decisive, and clear in your commands and explanations.  But in those situations, either you’ve got it or you don’t.  High PRE, high Tactics,  coordination/teamwork rolls, and a clear set of guidelines for what to do in a number of situations.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Strike Force has a section on group tactics and special maneuvers that's worth looking over.  It is all about how to use your team's abilities to come up with custom moves you can call on with a code word (like Fastball Special with the X-Men) and the team executes a move.  Being good at coming up with, teaching, and using that kind of thing effectively can go a long ways toward making a character seem like a good combat leader.

[dean day]

I wish there was just a leadership skill lol. I might just work on this as a house rule. 

[Lord Liaden]

The official Champions supervillain, Valak the World-Ravager (Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains) has a custom Professional Skill, "Warlord," based on Presence. I'd say there's enough justification to create a PS: Team Leader, to cover all the aspects of that role that aren't specifically apportioned to other Skills, like Tactics or Oratory.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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I wish there was just a leadership skill lol. I might just work on this as a house rule. 

 

What would it do?  How would you use it in a game?

[Jhamin]

It depends on what kind of a "leader" someone is.

 

Personally I love leaders that actually make their teams mechanically better.  Such as:

 

- Combat Skill Levels (or even overall levels!) that were useable on others, requires a teamwork or leadership roll to reflect how everyone fights better when they follow the leader's plan

- Aid to Dex/OCV/DCV (one at a time or all at once), Selective Area of Effect, reflecting how the skilled leader is coordinating the fight to get the drop on the bad guys

 

[Jhamin]

In fact, as I'm browsing the Book of Templates II, Patriotic Shield Boy Scout has an area of effect Stun Aid with Incantations called "Get Back in the Fight Trooper"

 

So there are a lot of ways to do this.

[LoneWolf]

The combat portion of leadership is covered by the skill tactics.  But to be a great leader requires more than just tactics.  At minimum they should have Deduction, Oratory and Tactics.  Deduction will allow you to figure out what your enemy is doing; Oratory is for being able to inspire your troops and to effectively communicate what needs to be done.  Tactics as mentioned earlier is used for making effective use of your resources, and countering those of your opponents. They will also need some knowledge skills.  These 3 skills and a good presence are the absolute minimum for a good leader. Most leaders will have other skill in addition to these. 

 

Teamwork is the ability to work with others in combat.  While this is very useful for a leader it is not absolutely necessary.  You could have a leader who mostly directs the fight and rarely engages in direct combat himself.  Professor X for example probably would not have this, but Capitan America would.   

 

A really great leader could have skill levels usable by others with a required skill roll limitation.  Maybe, something like this?
Combat Commands: +1 level with all combat Usable by 16 others simultaneously, requires a tactics roll 12 points.

 

But what really makes a great leader is usually his disadvantages/complications. Capitan America is a great leader because of what he represents.  He can get people to follow him because they believe in him and trust him.  This applies to villains not just heroes.  Hitler was a total piece of crap that promoted a vile agenda but was able to convince a whole country to follow him.     
 

[Hugh Neilson]

If the GM's response is that this will be judged purely on role playing - player skill - then the only players who can play a great tactical combat leader are the players who have solid tactical skills and good leadership skills themselves.

 

This is a similar challenge to social skills.  If the GM will not allow an introverted wallflower player to run a James Bond or Casanova character based on high social skills, the same problem arises.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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If the GM's response is that this will be judged purely on role playing - player skill - then the only players who can play a great tactical combat leader are the players who have solid tactical skills and good leadership skills themselves.

 

I agree strongly.  You cannot hold a player's personal limitations against their character. If someone is terrible at coming up with soliloquies for their presence attack, consider the best they can do to be a great one.  Don't treat their soliloquy as terrible just because they are bad at it.

 

Related: puzzles and riddles that test the player's ability to solve them instead of the character's.  This is ROLE PLAYING and as such you should be checking how good the character is.  I play RPGs to do things and go places I cannot personally - its a sort of wish fulfilment as well as storytelling.

 

I could rant on this for pages as it is an enormous pet peeve with game designers.  Its okay to put puzzles and riddles and such into games as long as you allow the skill of the characters to produce hints, details, and information to help solve the problem.  Requiring the players to figure out your perfect riddle or fail is not role playing, its you being a jackass as a GM.

[Matt the Bruins]

Here's a Naked Advantage I gave to the field leader of a military-sponsored super team, to give her leadership some oomph with mechanical effects. It's 6th edition, but I think could be translated to 5th without too much difficulty.

 

26    Seasoned Field Commander: Usable Simultaneously for +4 Combat Skill Levels (up to four recipients at once, one at a time, Grantor can take power back, Limited Range, Recipients must remain within LOS; +3/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); Incantations (-1/4), Recipients Must Hear And Understand Orders (-1/2)

[Tech]

We created a team and let one of the players whose never had a leader before, be the leader. The player himself was not necessarily a leader. So, we pushed his character for a Higher Presence, Higher Ego and Tactics skill. As players, when the time came for a leader to do something, then we actively waited for him to make a decision during the game. Repeatedly done, it gives actual experience - and confidence - and the player does much better now with his leader character.

[BoloOfEarth]

On 7/25/2022 at 10:14 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

If the GM's response is that this will be judged purely on role playing - player skill - then the only players who can play a great tactical combat leader are the players who have solid tactical skills and good leadership skills themselves.

 

This is a similar challenge to social skills.  If the GM will not allow an introverted wallflower player to run a James Bond or Casanova character based on high social skills, the same problem arises.

 

On 7/25/2022 at 12:53 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I agree strongly.  You cannot hold a player's personal limitations against their character. If someone is terrible at coming up with soliloquies for their presence attack, consider the best they can do to be a great one.  Don't treat their soliloquy as terrible just because they are bad at it.

 

Related: puzzles and riddles that test the player's ability to solve them instead of the character's.  This is ROLE PLAYING and as such you should be checking how good the character is.  I play RPGs to do things and go places I cannot personally - its a sort of wish fulfilment as well as storytelling.

 

I could rant on this for pages as it is an enormous pet peeve with game designers.  Its okay to put puzzles and riddles and such into games as long as you allow the skill of the characters to produce hints, details, and information to help solve the problem.  Requiring the players to figure out your perfect riddle or fail is not role playing, its you being a jackass as a GM.

 

I also agree strongly.  When my players use Interaction Skills, I ask them to give me the gist of what they're trying to say or do, and then use that to perhaps modify the roll.  Sure, we all have a laugh if the player says something ridiculous (a personal favorite was a Presence Attack:  "Stop, Evil Do-Gooder!"), but the player mis-speaking doesn't mean the character did, unless they flub the roll.

 

Regarding the puzzle / riddle thing, I admit to being guilty of using them on occasion, and try to remember to have them make a roll on an appropriate skill if the players are having trouble with it.  Although I'll point out that there is something to be said for the pleasure the player gets in figuring out the puzzle / riddle themselves.  I'd say to give them a chance to figure it out for themselves first, before throwing in the skill roll and hints / details / etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

26 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

 

I also agree strongly.  When my players use Interaction Skills, I ask them to give me the gist of what they're trying to say or do, and then use that to perhaps modify the roll.  Sure, we all have a laugh if the player says something ridiculous (a personal favorite was a Presence Attack:  "Stop, Evil Do-Gooder!"), but the player mis-speaking doesn't mean the character did, unless they flub the roll.

 

Regarding the puzzle / riddle thing, I admit to being guilty of using them on occasion, and try to remember to have them make a roll on an appropriate skill if the players are having trouble with it.  Although I'll point out that there is something to be said for the pleasure the player gets in figuring out the puzzle / riddle themselves.  I'd say to give them a chance to figure it out for themselves first, before throwing in the skill roll and hints / details / etc.

 

This cuts both ways. Where the character has an 8 PRE and no social/interaction skills, the player should not be able to make an eloquent speech to overcome the character's limitations.  "Wow - that sure was a great speech.  Too bad your character is a spitter, or the lovely lady would certainly have been persuaded by your charming presentation."

 

Now, when the player's speech includes preying on the Duke's prejudice against his political rival, and tosses in a subtle hint that the PC knows about his indiscretions with the Countess, those facts are worth a bonus.  That's not role playing - it's tactical use of in-character  knowledge.  But it's still more likely that Charming Charlie's 18 PRE, Persuasion skill and +4 levels with interaction skills will get the desired reaction from the Duke than that Pig-pen Percy's 8 PRE, Dist Features: offensive body odor and complete absence of interaction skills will get him very far - and the first had to talk their way into an audience with the Duke!

[Hermit]

Some great suggestions.

 

Another set up I've seen on the mechanical side is an Inspiring Leader with 10  extra points of  Presence for Defense only, Usable by others named something like "With him on our side, we can face anything". Mind you he was less a tactical genius and more an icon.

[Pattern Ghost]

I think the big question is: Are we making a PC or an NPC? Because an NPC is going to get a greater percentage of their character points spent on things like buffing powers than a PC. It's just not fun for a lot of players to be (to borrow an MMO term) a "buff bot." Build point total matters too. I think 5th and 6th default build point suggestions leave room for these kinds of things, but it's something to consider.

 

 

[Hermit]

On 8/30/2022 at 8:16 PM, Pattern Ghost said:

I think the big question is: Are we making a PC or an NPC? Because an NPC is going to get a greater percentage of their character points spent on things like buffing powers than a PC. It's just not fun for a lot of players to be (to borrow an MMO term) a "buff bot." Build point total matters too. I think 5th and 6th default build point suggestions leave room for these kinds of things, but it's something to consider.

 

 

 

Heck, if you're the one playing the Buff bot, with the GM's permission, you may put in a limitation similiar to incantations only the recipients have to do it.

 

If they want your bonus to their OCV, and you're playing "Captain Awesome"... then they have to RP and say out loud "Captain Awesome is so.. .so AWESOME!" or "Captain Awesome leads is here! We must surely win" or even "I heart Captain Awesome!" in order to get the bonus.

 

Watch with amusement the dirty looks around the gaming table as the GM makes sure that each player says it aloud so their character can get that sweet +2 OCV. Pride, or Lust for Power, which will win? Let's find out!

[unclevlad]

Leadership is also given as an example of a new skill.  6E2 300 is the cite in the index.

 

Generally, I've got no issue re-skinning Persuasion for Leadership, or Erudition for Oratory.  Especially the latter...some people are much better crafting words on paper, than speaking.

 

For a combat leader, I like Leadership, Tactics, and Analyze:  Combat.  Teamwork is nice, but IMO not required.  The leader identifies what's going on, determines countermeasures, then communicates them.  Things like the levels usable by others is something a bit different...that's the inspirational force, the rallying point.  That's not a Cap, definitely not a Cyclops.