Christopher R Taylor

The only problem with death traps is both building tension and not getting to a place where the PLAYERS do not see the avenues for escape that the CHARACTERS would.
 
For building tension you can run time.  I find a better solution is to have a dice pool that the players roll at set points (often decision points or significant actions).  When someone rolls the pool, any dice coming up six is removed, shrinking the pool.  When the pool is empty "something" happens.  If the players have not escaped then you can kill them (bad GM-ing IMO), rescue them (slightly better), have the trap go off and lead them through escaping with heroic actions and damage sustained/resources lost, use their apparently unsuccessful actions to show why the trap does not work as anticipated, or some other plot advancing result. Phew! 🙂
 
People love reading about their heroes escaping from death traps, they often hate being in them unless you make the situation one of possibilities rather than impossibilities.  If the players do not immediately engage with the problem solving throw some vague hints, highlighting the key features of the trap.  As the pool shrinks you could offer more detailed clues, with or without the need for skill or characteristic rolls.
 
I give you all this as evidence where my enthusiasm for death traps have led, in the past, to less than enjoyable gaming sessions!! 😬
 
Doc

I have both my players trapped in the basement of the Egyptian pavilion during the 1939 World's Fair in Queens NY.  They still have to work out how to escape. Let the fun begin.

Yeah requiring points creates a sense of importance and sacrifice, it makes items dear.  Kind of like how if you give someone something valuable, they'll like you, but if they buy something valuable, they'll be very careful with the item.  Well, usually.
 
I think there's value in the concept, which is why in the Jolrhos Field Guide, I require people making magic items to have the points to spend, but if the item is destroyed, lost, disenchanted, etc they get the points back in some manner or another so nothing is ever truly lost.  Its a barrier to creation and a way of making the items dear to a magic item creator, but not a permanent loss of points.  And there are ways of lowering the point cost.

I see.  So a wooden stick has BODY, but a magic wand doesn't.  A metal pipe has BODY, but the barrel of a gun doesn't.  And a gun doesn't have BODY, but if it's mounted on a vehicle, such as a tank, then it does?
 
This sounds like a job for... COMMON SENSE!  Yeah.  This seems like a good rule to ignore.  It does make sense for a damaged focus to be less effective, but there's no reason for it to be all-or-nothing.
 
If a focus loses one power every time it would have lost BODY, then maybe the solution is to just build all focuses with a lot more powers.  Buy a one-point power multiple times (or different ones), or even a half-point power, if the GM lets you (like points of END, or even like END in an END Reserve).
 
Wand of Conflagration, with one power:  4d6 RKA, Area Effect, 0 END, Affects Desolid, Armor Piercing x2.  This wand becomes a stick with 1 BODY past defenses.
 
Wand of Detection, with several Detect powers, each costing 10 points or less.  This wand remains useful after several hits.
 
It seems to me that a much better rule would be for the focus to have BODY, and lose some % of active points, based on the % of BODY taken.  The Wand of Conflagration has lost half of its BODY, so now it's only 2d6.  Maybe it loses power in incremental chunks, so that 1 BODY doesn't impair it in any way, but 1 BODY at a time adds up to a 5-point chunk being lost.  Similar to how a living character with 10 BODY can lose 9 of it and still do everything he could do normally, assuming he still has positive STUN and END, and isn't Impaired or Disabled.
 
Or maybe it can gain a Limitation, like an Activation roll, or Increased END Cost, or a penalty to a required Skill Roll.  EDIT:  Or an OCV penalty if it's a weapon, or possibly even a DCV penalty.  Whatever is appropriate for the particular focus, and the genre and setting.

Only after he's been destroyed and is no longer, you know, animated.  But I agree with your theme here, what defines an inanimate object?  Is a corpse of a human inanimate?  Does a focus qualify?  Usually the intent when built is good enough to figure things out like this, until Johnny Munchkin decides to redefine things mid-game and an argument arises.

Rules on being stunned:
 
 
So; maybe.  I would rule that its going to be based on circumstances (is the horse rearing?  Running?  Dodging?) and the character's actions when hit.  If you're leaning off the side, you'll fall.  If you're sitting squarely and the mount is not moving or is just trotting, you don't.  If you're riding hard or the horse is turning etc, then maybe -- unluck roll or maybe even the horse's DEX roll depending on how well trained it is

For me this is a feature: no matter how skilled and experienced you get, you're still just people and a dragon's bite is still very dangerous.  But better spells, better armor, etc all can help make the difference between "bitten in half" and "able to still fight"

Actually, that isn't the way I read the Linked Limitation:
 
 
So, only the "lesser" power is limited. I think this is probably due to trying to prevent abuse, such as taking a very expensive power, linking it to something like a 2-3 AP power and get a (possibly huge) discount on the very expensive power.
 
That's my take on it anyway.
 
Lee

That's a distinction without a difference.  You're presuming that a weapon somehow is not included in the rules and there's zero support for that other than "so it makes other rules make sense"

However, as rravenwood points out, Two Weapon Fighting is about Multiple Attacks:
 
 
So that answers my first concern, and thank you.  
 
The second though... I get the thing with linked and all but being able to just cut loose with multiple attacks in one phase without penalty or drawback does not sound or feel right at all to me.  Them's how the rules are written, so they go into Western Hero as stated but it just feels all wrong based on THE ENTIRETY OF THE HERO SYSTEM OTHER THAN THIS RULE.  Being able to do more than the ordinary carries with it a cost, in every other instance.
 
Oh, and END Cost is not a penalty.  You always pay END, that's just part of the system.  Its fuel, not a penalty.
 
It also begs the question why exactly the penalties for doing so on other targets takes such heavy penalties.  Should they be so heavy?  Multiple power attacks on a single target take the same penalties
 
For example, I have a character with a blast and a killing attack.
 
If I use my blast and killing attack at the same time on a target, its a Combined Attack and takes no penalties PLUS only one roll and I can make another half move.
 
If I use my blast twice on the target, that makes it a Multiple Attack it takes -2 OCV, halves my DCV, and takes the whole phase.
 
Umm.....

That's a distinction without a difference.  You're presuming that a weapon somehow is not included in the rules and there's zero support for that other than "so it makes other rules make sense"

However, as rravenwood points out, Two Weapon Fighting is about Multiple Attacks:
 
 
So that answers my first concern, and thank you.  
 
The second though... I get the thing with linked and all but being able to just cut loose with multiple attacks in one phase without penalty or drawback does not sound or feel right at all to me.  Them's how the rules are written, so they go into Western Hero as stated but it just feels all wrong based on THE ENTIRETY OF THE HERO SYSTEM OTHER THAN THIS RULE.  Being able to do more than the ordinary carries with it a cost, in every other instance.
 
Oh, and END Cost is not a penalty.  You always pay END, that's just part of the system.  Its fuel, not a penalty.
 
It also begs the question why exactly the penalties for doing so on other targets takes such heavy penalties.  Should they be so heavy?  Multiple power attacks on a single target take the same penalties
 
For example, I have a character with a blast and a killing attack.
 
If I use my blast and killing attack at the same time on a target, its a Combined Attack and takes no penalties PLUS only one roll and I can make another half move.
 
If I use my blast twice on the target, that makes it a Multiple Attack it takes -2 OCV, halves my DCV, and takes the whole phase.
 
Umm.....

As for Linked, lets examine the effects
 
Linked allows two powers to go off at the same time, using the same attack roll, but one of these powers can only be used with the other one.
Advantage: you can use two powers at once with one attack roll (a combined attack) Disadvantage: you can't use them separately. So that looks like a push.  They cancel each other out. Which leaves you with this one final part
Disadvantage: you can only use the secondary power with the primary, never on its own Now, that's not a very significant problem, but it is one.  So that's worth a limitation.
 
90% of the examples of linked powers in the published materials are to simulate something like a scorpion's sting: ouch and poison.  The ouch is the delivery system for the poison.  Its even possible to argue that perhaps most linked powers, you wouldn't want to use solo anyway, so its hardly much of a limitation.
 
In other words, linked is a limitation... just not much of one, so it probably should not have been grandfathered in as -½ but -¼ instead as a base.
 
See, my problem with combined attack as stated is two fold.
 
Either it should carry some manner of penalty
Or the two weapon attacks etc should be abandoned as having penalties and dropped from the rules.

Because they don't make sense together at all.  Its one or the other, you can't have both in the rules at the same time.  Trying to find an excuse like "oh uh, its um, that's real weapon limitation!" doesn't fit the rules as written and is just trying to justify something that just doens't make sense.

As part of building the Western Hero book for 6th I'm putting in the rules for combat etc so its a self-contained book.  I've been playing Hero since around 1982, through all 6 editions, and run hundreds of games.

But this Combined Attack rules have me a bit... baffled.  There are two different "you can hit people more than once in a phase without autofire" rules: Multiple Attack and Combined Attack.  And the rules seem to kind of overlap and run into each other.
 
Multiple attacks allow you to do more than one attack in a phase, but with penalties (half DCV etc).
Combined attacks allow you to do more than one attack in a phase, but with no penalties, just restrictions like "cannot use martial combat maneuvers"
 
To make matters worse, the rules on Combined Attacks in the HSG2 are contradictory:
 
 
And the section on Combined Attacks seems to shift over suddenly into Multiple Attacks, using the terms interchangably.
 
Champions Complete isn't really any more help, as it simply says
 
 
Now, I want to have the rules properly presented and unchanged in the Western Hero book, and I want to make all options available to players but I don't understand this at all and I can't explain it or add it into the book if it makes no sense.  This seems ridiculously overpowered for one thing (no penalties, more than one attack at once with one attack roll??  But it also is very under explained how its different than Multiple Attacks.
 
Help?
 
I should note here that the whole "oh you always could shoot multiple times in a single phase, honest" thing always sounded a bit sketchy to me when it suddenly showed up in 5th edition.

After some wrangling, I was able to get everyone together. Our PBeM Golden Age game started today. I am  using most of the excellent suggestions from the above posts. 

since the Combined Attack is a strike, I don';t think you can use it to grab. However, you can strike someone with a TK attack so you might be able to use it that way

I was managing a comic/game store at the time. Every time I put an order in with Alliance for some sets they were always sold out.

Dude.  I missed the black and green ones.  Tha KS for the photo: even at the large size and with the Hexman on them, they are _much_ more attractive than the chrome yellow on medium blue.... 
 
Widh I'd been around when they were. 

Okay. Folks. 
Your friendly neighborhood moderator here.
I've had a request to lock this thread down. And I can see why. There's no rule against down voting someone, but we do have a stance against insulting or 'attacking' individuals (As opposed to disagreeing or debating what they say) and we're definitely crossing dangerously close to that. I'm not pointing fingers. But it does look at this point that we're getting into some circular arguments at best, and at worse, about to have some needless build up of personal hostility that can dim fun on all sides.
 
I'm not going to pretend I'm above that myself. We've all gone down that rabbit hole. But my advice, trite as it is, is if you're getting riled, back off from the thread. It doesn't mean you've conceded defeat or any such thing.  If it's gotten to a point where side X is in this camp, and Side Y is in that camp, and they're never going to agree, then you're no longer really sharing opposing views, you're trying to collect points from those that already agree with you  (And maybe 'show up' the other side) and that's a waste of our time too.
 
Apologies for the scattershot speech, sometimes  innocents get caught in the 'lecture fire', and I certainly don't intend that. But right now, this thread seems almost the opposite of productive given how negative it has twisted into. 
 
However, seeing posts that admit this has become something of a flame war, or questions from folk wondering what we're even talking about after four pages, makes me realize more than one of you agrees this thread has become circular and hostile... though the reasons WHY or 'who is to blame' may vary. Instead of assigning blame. I'm going to take put this thread out of its misery.
 
You're free to start a new again, fresh and clean if you like, and please bear my concerns in mind if you do. I can't claim to 'know' all of you but most on this thread I've seen for years on these boards and I've a respect for a lot of you but we all have our bad days, or 'well that escalated quickly' situations. I hope that's all this whole thing is, collectively speaking
 
 
If anybody disagrees with the locking of the thread, feel free to PM Simon, I am but a lowly mod.
 
 

Lucas is, putting it kindly, inconsistent when it comes to the Star Wars films.  Depending on when you ask him and what the context is, he'll trot out any of ten different versions of what he had planned or intended.  His first Star Wars script was incomprehensible mess and contained way too much for a single film, it was only with the work of editors and writers that they managed to get anything remotely coherent out of his ideas.  Then they used the rest of the ideas for his one Star Wars film to make the next two, but with better writers.  Then he started pretending it was always meant to be 9 films, but when called on it didn't really even have a plan or storyline.
 
And the prequels show it.  They just suck significantly less than the newest films.  The problem is that because he made so much money and had such a bankroll of rep and expectations he was given nearly free rein with those three movies and as a result they just did not stack up like the first three, not at all.  There are moments, but most of it is awful.

Well and Yoda wasn't being a jerk who didn't want to train anyone.  He was being reluctant to take on a student because he wanted to see if the student really cared and was trying to test their dedication and willingness to learn.  The fact that Luke was a bit petulant and immature made him sympathetic and realistic rather than "oh we don't need the sacred texts, she's Mary Sue and is better than all this anyway."  There's really no comparison between the two other than the superficiality of Episode XIII trying to remake the best Star Wars film ever made.

Well and Yoda wasn't being a jerk who didn't want to train anyone.  He was being reluctant to take on a student because he wanted to see if the student really cared and was trying to test their dedication and willingness to learn.  The fact that Luke was a bit petulant and immature made him sympathetic and realistic rather than "oh we don't need the sacred texts, she's Mary Sue and is better than all this anyway."  There's really no comparison between the two other than the superficiality of Episode XIII trying to remake the best Star Wars film ever made.

I suspect that there's a fair amount of damage due to reliance on committees and focus groups with modern big-budget movies to minimize financial risk. There's also a very vocal fan base that refuses to accept any version of [insert franchise here] that doesn't hew to their vision. It's very rare that both the bankers and the fans can be fully satisfied.

I think this is a thing that could be handled by a campaign setting, if you are the GM.  If the campaign makes a ruling that powers due to being a mutant must take the Unified Power limitation then I would allow the drain to be against mutant powers rather than requiring a variable sfx drain.
 
It does require the campaign to recognise mutant powers as a thing but it is a pretty clean mechanic.
 
Doc

All right then:
 
Much overdue, but I've been busy.  Of course, being busy has made me tired and sleepy, so I may not get as far into this as I thought I might.
 
If, of course, OP is still curious.  It seems that wreck of a map has successfully killed this thread.  
 
 
Moving right along:
 
The next session, three of the players who had not shown up the week before _did_ show up, and asked if they were "still allowed to play."
 
Well of _course_ you are!  Come on in and join the party!
 
Turns out that they _were_ the party, because no one else showed up.  
 
What to do?
 
I seriously toyed with the idea of running _these_ kids through the Boneyard Scenario, stoked with its success with the previous kids and of course, it would stall getting into what I had prepared.  However, it hit me that this would set a dangerous precedent:  I would be running _two_ different groups on alternating weekends.  Couldn't let that sort of nonsense get started!  I'd have to re-write the whole outline for the campaign to match the much, _much_ smaller groups, and given that the mixtures of powers and defenses were built around at least five people making it regularly, well....
 
What to do?  What to do?   I had a few thing on tap, but nothing so short and sweet as to guarantee it could be done in a single scenario.  I wanted something that would do what the Boneyard Scenario would do, as well: give them a safe space to learn the rudiments of combat and movement (notice the bank ceilings were high enough for leaping and flying--- sort of?)  and give them a victory to celebrate.
 
Crime spree!
 
What is Crime Spree?  Is it a well-practice and honed-through-experience scenario like Boneyard?  NO!  Of course it isn't!  Crime Spree is merely a suggestion I read in an article that was titled something along the lines of "what to do when you don't know what to do?"    Let's call it the super-hero equivalent "a man with a gun walks into the room."  Something to get the action going.  I have no idea if there is a wrong way or a right way to do this, but I decided to give them _something_ to get things moving (you now, while they were excited and curious) and figure out how to draw it together as we went.
 
So we start off with Silk Dragon gliding about on patrol (say what you want about comic book tropes, that's a great one for just putting someone where you want them  ) when she sees two armed men fleeing a stop-and-rob and leaping into a running car.  She immediately gives chase!
 
Feral, who enjoyed the scents and tranquility of the wooded garden (all native species, groomed, but left relatively natural) in Daedalus Park, has found a badly beaten mugging victim and begins using his super-senses to find clues.  He finds three distinct shoe prints and can make out two distinct human scents amongst the gagging stench of Axe instead-of-bath.  There's a third scent, but he's not sure he'd recognize it it's so polluted here.  He wants to shift into his wolf form to gain a better sense of smell and faster running.  I point out that he is in a public park on a pretty day, and he opts to go with a bloodhound instead.
 
[note:  I have commented before that we don't use Shape Shift and _rarely_ use Multi-form.  Mostly this is because I run a much older edition, and I still do it the way we "faked it" back then.  There are two options we use.  The second method-- and I really only recommend this for experienced players-- is a power pool from which you pull appropriate powers; the shift in shape is just special effects.  It helps if you have some pre-built lists handy.  Unless you just want to build some custom disads, this gives you the advantage of having your actual intelligence and knowledge skills as well.  Win-win.  The first (chronologically) was derived from the old "Only in HERO ID" power limitation:  only in X form.  I allow it a bit larger bonus, depending on the power and the frequency with which he will have it (flight gets a bigger bonus than Tracking Scent, because fewer animals have Flight).  From there, make three or four "generic" forms:  Dog.  Bird.  Fish.  Big Fish.  Weasel.   it doesn't matter enough what kind of dog you pick: you get the "only in dog form" powers, and an unlimited amount of dogs to turn into. You know: because it's just special effects.  Now if there was an additional something with a more specific limitation:  Only in Wolf form, well first, the bonus is bigger, and of course, he will not have it as any other kind of dog.  I digress, but it's so you understand that this kid isn't running around with a nine-hundred point character).
 
He sprints off, hot on the trail of the muggers.  He asks for regular PER checks, and at one point I tell him that he has seen a couple of young punks looking at the display of a video camera, but their scents do not match those he is looking for.
 
Was that part of anything?  The punks with the camera?
 
NO!  No; it was _not_.
 
But remember two things:  A world is _full_, and it is full of people doing stuff, most of it totally random from the outside.  You have to keep that world _full_, both to maintain the illusion of a living, breathing universe, and because you don't know what you're going to need later.  Don't worry about adding too much unless you see the game is actually slowing down.  If the players key on something that bites you in the butt-- it's _fine_.  Roll with it, because it means that they are both paying attention and that they _want_ to _interact_ with your world.  (there's a hilarious story on youtube about this sort of thing where he particularly creative D&D players weaponized a whale....  ) 
 
As he went on, he saw people jogging, people having picnics, and a stain of burnt transmission fluid in the parking lot where he lost the scent.  Reasoning that the muggers had gotten into a car with a bad transmission, he sniffed and snuffled until he was certain he could recognize the scent of this particular burnt fluid and started out toward the road.  I suggested the road was dangerous for a dog, and he said "oh, right!  Okay, I go elephant."  Then he walked calmly down a four-lane thoroughfare, causing quite a commotion and traffic problem.
 
Firefly is drawn to this scene by a report on her police scanner of a possible accident and major traffic problem.  She never quite makes it,  because before she can see the elephant, there is another call on her radio about a smash-and-grab robbery at a nearby jewelry store.  She shrinks down to power up (she gains a considerable amount of flight speed in her miniature form) and rockets off toward the address given, just a couple of blocks away.
 
She arrives in time to see a car, stuck in the sudden traffic problem, swerve onto the sidewalk and begin to accelerate through pedestrians.  As she gives chase, I tell her "you see the traffic problem:  There's an elephant walking down the northbound fast lane, trunk probing all along the road, sniffing here and there, changing lanes randomly, but always moving forward."  She replies that she wants to take a closer look at that; why there's an elephant here. (during the character generation party, it was established that she and Feral knew each other as superheroes, but not as civilians)  She wants to know if it's acting "like an animal" or more like a person.  I tell her "it doesn't seem to be paying any attention at all to the horns or the shouting, and seems to be taking care to not bump the cars that are edging around it."  On a whim, I added "you also notice two young guys with their phones out, filming.  There are _lots_ of phones out-- hundreds!  Even the people in the cars are trying to film the elephant in the street!  But these two guys....   They don't seem to be interested in the elephant.  They're filming something else....."
 
Announcing that she's pretty sure the elephant is Feral, she turns her attention back to the fleeing car, which has forced its way back onto the road to get around an open basement elevator in the sidewalk.
 
 
We now have three people doing things.
 
Because I steer the bad guys, I have managed to push two of these people into close proximity.  That's going so smoothly that I figure it's time to ease Silk Dragon over this way.  Her fleeing car is southbound on the same road.  Traffic isn't as snarled (yet) coming from that direction.  Meanwhile, Firefly has grown back to her regular size directly in front of her quarry and fired a bolt of "biophosphene"  directly in front of it; the driver swerves deeper into traffic.  (Firefly's EB isn't particularly strong in her full-size state, but it is easily the most visually-impressive attack of all the players, looking like nothing less than pure plasma with an almost-painful yellow/green glow.  Cranked to it's max, it has a Flash linked to it).    "Feral!" she yells, counting on his big elephant ears, "I can use some help!"
 
Feral turns to look to see who called him and why, and we cut back to Silk Dragon, who's quarry is now encountering traffic problems.  She drifts up higher to make sure she isn't spotted, and isn't too worried about losing the car as she has carefully marked the roof with considerable amounts of silk.   As traffic grinds to a halt, the hoods inside start looking around for a better route.  Silk Dragon takes the hint and dives, making every attempt to entangle the doors and seal the criminals inside.  She has already called for police assistance (shame Spock-like's player hadn't shown yet, since you know...  THAT WAS HIS ACTUAL JOB!    anyway, the police are inbound, but are slowed by traffic conditions.  Silk has managed to get the driver's door sealed with her Entangle, and the hoods now notice her.  Panic begins as the driver floors it and tries to jam between the two lanes of traffic.  The passenger opens the door and bolts.  Silk Dragon is concerned about "that poor elephant!" but gives chase.  They end up inside a garage (mechanic's, not parking), and Silk Dragon has a chance to shine with her Martial Arts and soundly defeats her opponent, in spite of his gun.
 
Meanwhile, Firefly herds her quarry toward Feral, who thinks he understands what's going on, though he is unaware of the second "bad guy car."  Feral charges the first car as Firefly fires another EB to encourage the driver to swerve again, allowing Feral to approach it broadside and flip it onto it's roof.  unfortunately, everyone is now on the southbound side, where traffic is moving much better, and the panicked criminal is bearing down on them.  Intent on pulling the criminals from the overturned car and getting them disarmed and out of harm's way, they fail to see the reckless abandon with which the other vehicle approaches!
 
Silk Dragon has taken to the air again and sees the car smashing its way forward through traffic and hurtling toward the crowd milling around the overturned car, the superhero, and the elephant.  Concentrating, she draws in a deep breath and exhales a column of flame, not into the crowd or at the car, but low enough to attract attention.  Everyone looks up, and with relief she changes from fire to silk and attempts to entangle the crowd beside the car.  Feral grabs the entire entangle with his trunk and runs for the sidewalk, pulling the dozen or so people with him while Firefly shrinks down and powers up her EB to maximum, turning on the Flash.  She fires at the car, melting the grill and radiator and doing some small amount of damage to the engine behind (the power steering pump will have to be replaced).  Blinded and panicked, and poisonous steam spilling from the radiator, the driver reflexively jams the brakes out of self-preservation.  Silk Dragon is on him in an instant, pulling him through the broken windshield and entangling him.  She breathes a quick flash of flame onto the entangled bystanders, harmlessly flash-burning the entangle itself (no dice; it's all special effects, folks ), smiles and does a slight curtsey for the two guys on the sidewalk filming everything......
 
 
 
Yep.
 
 
Tired.
 
See you folks later.
 
 
 
 

Yeah requiring points creates a sense of importance and sacrifice, it makes items dear.  Kind of like how if you give someone something valuable, they'll like you, but if they buy something valuable, they'll be very careful with the item.  Well, usually.
 
I think there's value in the concept, which is why in the Jolrhos Field Guide, I require people making magic items to have the points to spend, but if the item is destroyed, lost, disenchanted, etc they get the points back in some manner or another so nothing is ever truly lost.  Its a barrier to creation and a way of making the items dear to a magic item creator, but not a permanent loss of points.  And there are ways of lowering the point cost.

Well AD&D had an almost arbitrary gold value for treasure but it was never really used or meant as a measure of relative power, and even if it had been, nobody used it that way.  
 
The truth is that a point-based system is much, much easier to quantify relative power gain than other systems, particularly as D&D is mostly by guess and by god random in assigning power level in a lot of areas.