Doc Democracy

Like Mental Blasts that effect the caster if he/she fails to hit their target.

Just rolling dice makes it inconsistent.
 
Some form of triggered side effect might make things interesting.
 
Example: Cast a fire spell defined as doing a certain number of damage classes, but side effect triggers if you rolled too low on the damage. The side effect is that the difference between the average of the damage classes and what you rolled affects the caster. Like a kind of rebound effect if you don’t project enough energy away (rolled too low on your damage dice).
 
Something like this would make a wizard less eager to hurl a fireball, as they could burn themselves up if they minimum out on their damage roll.
 
I’m sure creative minds can come up with other creative side effects for different spell effects.

Man, I could write a thesis on what makes fictional magic systems 'feel' like magic.  It comes up all the time in fantasy fiction discussions.  There, it boils down to whether magic is repeatable, whether it is known, and whether it is knowable.  At some point, alchemy became chemistry; where your magic system is on that continuum determines how 'soft' or 'hard it is, IMO.
 
Keeping magic magical is even harder in RPGs where it needs to be systematized for playability and balance.  Fortunately, as Steve mentioned, we're already throwing dice, so that helps.  Drastically increasing the complexity of spellcasting is absolutely required--I've spent decades fighting this battle with Hero critics who whine that magic 'feels like superpowers'.  Not if your spell requires a skill roll, incantations, gestures, concentration, thirty seconds, and multiple foci, it doesn't.  I use Doctor Strange as the minimum example here.  At least in the comics Strange has to contort his fingers, sit crosslegged, recite various invocations, and carry several magical artifacts, and even then he's still a borderline superhero.  MCU Strange drops the incantations and is basically wuxia.  Conversely, in literature it takes three witches chanting while they drop all kinds of weird and creepy ingredients into a cauldron to cast a precog spell.  It takes three days of fasting and concentration while painting a single room-sized rune for Elric to summon Arioch for the first time.  Potterverse wizards can be like unto gods but must use a wand.  Magic circles.  Pointy hats.  Staves and wands.  All these accoutrements are what flavors the magic. 
 
And for unpredictability, as I see it there are three ways for a wizard to screw up: magnitude, control, and effect. 
 
Power: Usually this manifests as a failure to generate enough magical power.  Luke can't lift the X-Wing.  Ron can't leviosa.  It's also possible to overpower a spell--this might not matter if you're trying to kill a dragon, but could be bad if you're casting a love charm.  Some Hero powers already have dice rolls here, but not all. Control: Power is nothing without control.  Ron casts a slug curse with a busted wand and it backfires on him.  He later Disapparates without a license and leaves an arm behind.  Hermione successfully transforms herself... into a cat.  Ged summons Elfarran, but also summons a shadow creature that almost kills him on multiple occasions.  To-hit rolls cover some of these instances but not all. Effect: Sometimes magical mistakes have completely unrelated results.  The Potterverse almost has a monopoly on this trope.  Harry loses his temper while casting a spell and... accidentally inflates Aunt Marge into a balloon.  Neville accidentally transplanted his ears onto a cactus.  Luna Lovegood's mother cast an experimental spell and simply blew herself up.  This is the hardest thing to randomize without just having the GM make something up. This really cried out for a much more fleshed-out Side Effects system.  As it stands Side Effects is entirely situational--in fact without GM intervention it's possible for the Side Effect to be better than the original spell.  But using the above it should be possible to set up a system to randomize spell failure without leaving it to the GM to make something up.
 

It is a good game, a hell of a lot better than Vampire the Masquerade. 

I am 100% behind you on this list and it does not need all of those things to be true in any particular game but they are indeed some of the things that make magic magical.
 
So SFX are inherent here.  i think that there should also be some kind of social element to it.  Magicians are often either revered or reviled.  Sometimes Wizards are revered and Witches are reviled but open use of magic, unless you are in a magic heavy environment (at which point you might as well go with the magic as pseudo-science approach) then people should notice and react when you cast a spell.
 
The biggest question is how you pack all of those things into a game, where not only might you want players to use magical characters, you dont want the magic use to take up a whole session or leave you, as GM, being castigated for being arbitrary or biased.  There needs to be an element of system in there around which you wrap the trappings of magic in the setting.  A player wants to have an element of understanding, a feel they can at least push the chances of things working in their favour and to have a reasonable expectation of knowing what should happen if things go well.
 
THAT element of gameability is what I am hoping to talk about.
 
 
That feels like an SFX solution.  How would it work in game?  Simply finding out the true names of things and then having absolute control over them? Degrees of control?
 
What would the mechanics be?  Anything outside of the RAW?
 
As you might note from my post in the other forum - I think I am reaching towards an Ars magica style solution here.  Ars magica however, for me, had all the trappings of Magic with the underlying philosophy of science.  I have always wanted to play a decent length campaign of Ars Magica but never had the time or the group (or the GM willing to run it for me!).
 
Doc

The keys to making magic feel magical in my opinion are:
 
keep much of it mysterious -- we don't know exactly how it works
don't worry about consistency -- yes, you can turn beans into peas, but not peas into beans
make it inconsistent or untrustworthy -- yeah I can blow up those orcs but it might not go exactly as I planned
let it be whimsical -- I can make you stronger, but you have to tie this toad to your forehead
don't make it too systematic or scientific -- my magical experiments are not always replicable
put limits on it -- magic cannot make your hair blonde, I'm sorry
make it difficult -- I studied 18 years to transform this block of wood into stone
make it have a cost -- yes, I can bring him back from the dead but it ages me a year, and he will have no memory
focus more on flexibility and utility than power -- no I cannot blow the orc horde to pieces, but I can conjure up siege engines and food for your armies
Make sure it feels magical -- I cannot fly like Superman but I can sprout huge bat wings and fly at night during the full moon
 
This kind of thing makes magic feel set apart from science or superpowers or mutant abilities, etc.  Magic only feels magical if it is made to seem that way.  If you can do the same things with magic as a superhero, or vice versa, you've lost its special sense.

I kind of enjoy the Critical Role take on Resurrections. At it's base, it's a ritual spell that requires those casting to "sacrifice" a few things to appease the gods. Maybe it's a feather, or a nice jacket, or even some coin. A variety of rolls are made based on the offerings by each participant (who also each offer something). If successful, the being is brought back. If the rolls aren't great, maybe they're brought back with a problem, or maybe a pact is made. If failed, the soul is laid to rest and cannot be resurrected in this manner again. 

I thought I would have another go at this.  It has been playing in my head as something I want and, if I do, then surely HERO can accommodate me.  I reckon the big thing is whether you can introduce an element of uncertainty and "magic" without imposing an undue time or complexity "tax" in game terms.
 
 
I think the key dichotomy of this issue is that the player has knowledge the character does not (the game rules), that the character has knowledge the player does not (the rules of the universe, and living in a world where mortals wield such power).  I am sure the characters are entirely unaware of their "level" and why, when they cast their six first level spells, they must only cast more powerful spells.  🙂
 
What is missing here is that neither of them know what the GM (and thus the universe) knows.
 
I was, to my surprise, reaching toward Ars Magica as that, tome us the epitome of magic as science.  But the game tries to provide a core game-comoatibkeway of codifying magic.
 
Before I start, this is only worth the (GM) effort if you want to introduce an element of doubt and uncertainty to magic and that is only worth it if it adds depth and colour to the magic and the world.
 
 
To me, the question is not whether Chris might gave an idea but whether Belzeboim, his magic-wielding character in the world, knows or can find out. 
 
In Glorantha, everyone is aware, they understand how the world works and they do not pine for a world of bacteria and viruses, nor for a world where metals are inert chemicals with no link to the mythic history of the world. The player can learn the rules of the world but cannot expect their knowledge of this world biology is chemistry to deliver insight into that nautical world, or that the scientific method will reign supreme as it does in this world.  It us a different paradigm.
 
In HERO, this is all bound up, I think, into the (boring) magic roll. The magic roll adds an element of unpredictability but no magic, wonder or setting colour.  I think it would be valuable for the world to introduce variety and colour to magic in the setting. I would make the magic roll a straight 10 or less but not allow people to but bonuses to the roll, that all comes from the cloud of knowledge, skills, and materials available to the wizard.
 
So, players should have knowledge of what characters know (which is what they have been taught).  If the character is from a hedge witch tradition, they will have knowledge such as Plants, Weather, Animals, the Winds etc., and may have charms, potions and fetishes that enhance their magic.  If the character is from a wizardly tradition, then they will have knowledge such as Thaumaturgy, Evocation,  Illusion etc., and may have a staff, symbols and scrolls that will enhance their magic.
 
The Fantasy Hero source book delivers a lot of the detail on which this stuff could hang. The question us how it might work in game.  Would a hedge witch trying to cast an "unseen" charm in a field have the same chance as a wizard casting an "invisibility" spell in the same field?  That is where the GM knowledge comes in. 
 
The environment is an "unknown" to the player.  That unknown is what introduces variability, the difficulties the player will not know of (and character might be able to find out).  As such, I think there will be two approaches, prepared and unprepared. 
 
In a prepared situation each spellcaster might use various skills to understand the environment, or it may be the home territory of the caster and thus "known".  That may counter some or all of the difficulties. The player might also proffer a skill and item that will deliver a bonus to the roll.
 
In an unprepared situation only skill and item will help.
 
The GM should have a range of environmental issues such as "wild magic area", "local nature spirits", "on a ley-line" and a variety of other things that have a variety of +/-2 modifiers.   It is subjective rather than objective.  The GM sees the hedge witch, in an area known to them, and decide that the "local nature spirits" are friendly and provide a +2 to their magic roll.  The GM might decide the same spirits deliver a -2 to the wizard, or perhaps are neutral to the wizard casting invisibility but might be unfriendly to them changing the environment.
 
This should be a discussion with the players, the casters will be aware of positive or negative influences.  These should not be subject to rolls at the time of casting.  However, the player might seek to better prepare for magic by getting to know their environment ahead of casting (meaning more opportunity for either role play with active environment such as nature spirits or lore exploration with passive environment such as ley-lines or wild magic areas). Such preparation can turn neutral or negative elements into positive ones (and may entail rolls to "persuade" or "understand" the elements).
 
This also means it is much more dangerous taking on a spellcaster on their own ground, all the environmental elements will be positive for the home-caster and likely, at best, neutral to other casters (unless they are of a similar tradition and know the location).
 
I would also be open to a system where the magic roll delivers boons or complications.  I think that every six rolled in a successful cast delivers a boon to the caster while every one rolled in an unsuccessful cast causes a complication. These things do not change the spell but deliver additional benefits or complications to the caster, such as gaining a positive relationship with the nature spirits or understanding of the magical ambience of ancient ruins.
 
I think this begins drawing the players into the setting by giving them game-relevant reasons to do that.  It also means that casting lightning bolt on the site of an ancient battlefield might be more unreliable than wgen cast in defence of a prepared campsite.
 
All-in-all, I think this would begin to make magic more magical, as the unknowns of the environment have the potential to make things more unreliable, while the boons and complications blur the edges of success and failure.
 
Doc
 
Edit: I will cross post this in the Fantasy HERO forum where it probably belongs...

I reckon we should avoid a discussion of social justice here, the moderators might object.

I agree, I was just giving the option for GMs that wish to have absolutely everything written up (i.e. make everything as complicated as possible). I have seen some GMs, even rather GOOD ONES, that have a like for number crunching.

Biometric devices will not work for the character.  That could prevent him from accessing restricted areas or verifying his identity.  A voice scan would work, but things like facial recognition or fingerprint scanning will not work.  He will need a password to unlock a smart phone or have to leave it with no security.  That would also prevent many of the heath monitoring function of a phone or even more sophisticated devices from working.
 
Medical care is going to be a lot more difficult to perform on the character. He could get something like skin cancer and not even know it.  Doing surgery on him is going to be next to impossible. Even putting in an IV is going to be difficult. A low point regeneration would be highly recommended.
 
Many social interactions are going to be more difficult. For example, if he is accused of a crime, he might have a difficult time proving he was not there.   So, you say you were at home at the time of the murder?  Did anyone see your there?  No detective no one saw me.  The witnesses swear they never saw anyone shoot the victim, sounds like the killer was invisible.
 
Another huge drawback is it means the character cannot maintain a secret ID.   
 
This is just off the top of my head.  Given enough time I could probably find a lot more drawbacks.

There was the Mental paralysis power in third edition I think.  My players hated it.  If they got the hint a villain had that power, they became priority number one - every attack on every action on that villain until he (or she) was no longer moving....

There was the Mental paralysis power in third edition I think.  My players hated it.  If they got the hint a villain had that power, they became priority number one - every attack on every action on that villain until he (or she) was no longer moving....

Why not just move forward and have technology alongside the other trappings of fantasy?
 
It just feels wrong for fantasy magic to be "science".
 
In Glorantha, there is no germ theory, disease is caused by disease spirits. I have increasingly refused to allow magic to be used in scientific ways, or for scientific principles to reliably reproduce results. 🙂
 
 

You already have the mechanics of how it works.  The attacking character makes a DEX roll and if he fails the attack loses 15 active points per point he failed by. Why do you need to write it up any further?  This does not look like it was written up with points under 3rd edition, so why does it need to be written up in later editions.  Unless this is something a PC wants his character to use, or an NPC is using something like a VPP for it, it does not need to be formally written up.  

It seems to me the extra time should be in segments not phases.  Unlike other movements a leap cannot be altered while in progress, so characters SPD should not affect the velocity.  As it is a character with a lower SPD is traveling at a much slower real velocity than that of a higher SPD.  A leaping character also only pays END in the phase they start the leap.  If that is the case why should a lower SPD character take longer to make the leap?  They are exerting the same amount of effort.  On other movement a higher SPD translates into covering more distance but costs more END.  That is not the case with leap.  

I am uncomfortable about the taking no actions during this time.  I like the idea of a character leaping across a chasm while firing at opponents, this rule would prevent that.  I can accept that actions might be limited and may be harder, but being able to do nothing while soaring through the air feels wrong.
 
I share your confusion about the statements.  I think I would have the additional time for non-combat doubling be a suggested limitation for colour, possibly the second clause should say, every additional (or purchased) doubling purchased adds a phase, that makes it a reiteration of the first clause.

As Hyper-man cites, Change Environment has this as an optional effect.
 
You can also do this as an Entangle that deteriorates rapidly. 
 
But I think the best way would be as a Presence Attack.

Update: The battle went well - I kept their original defenses, their only limitation was a singleminded approach towards attacking "themselves) - eliminating the many bonuses that come from tactics and multiple attackers)
Epic Alliance were on their heels for a moment, then got their bearings and strategy together. The castled to take advantage of the doppelgängers enraged state, they englobed with Barrier, entangled, grabbed and blinded their doppelgängers - The ultimate result was multiple called shot heads against entangled or bind opponents. Epic Alliance overcame the problem in shining fashion.

It was very interesting watching them overcome their codes against killing and utilize their powers in new ways.

Thanks all!!!

That is presuming that they aren't falling onto broken ground, sharp edges. 🙂
 
I would be looking to find ways of dropping, pushing, pulling the doppelgangers onto sharp/edged surfaces.  Change velocity into killing damage.

Honestly, I had that concern myself. More dialogue can and should be had, and I'd love to read it. I'd hate to think someone wouldn't present their own ideas just because I transcribed all this stuff.
 
But I also didn't want to avoid highlighting how much the Champions setting explores the implications of super-technology and super powers on society, particularly economics, as your topic requested. It covers the subject more thoroughly and logically than I've seen anywhere else, and offers much for supers GMs to consider.
 
This is another example of material I had collated for the benefit of the Champions Online community, and having it all handy I couldn't justify to myself not sharing it. Believe it or not, I actually left some less relevant things out.

I’m overwhelmed by LL’s responses, but I also worry if he’s shut down any conversation that might happen by being so thorough about Champions Earth.

The problem with using extra dimensional movement is this is something that negatively affects the character that only occurs or rare occasions under specific circumstances.  Making the characters pay for something that hinders them makes no sense.  You could use the side effect limitation but that gets a lot more complicated.  To do it properly you need to put a limitation on a limitation.  While this is something that can be done it will be confusing.  Using a complication is a clean simple solution. 
 
The special effect is actually extra dimensional movement, but you can use a complication as the game mechanic. 

I would be ambivalent about it.  It would be an opportunity - bluebooking the Microverse, it would be a mini-series in a comic book, not a trauma event.
 
If me and the player had discussed it, and nothing like this should be done without that kind of discussion, then it is relatively minor.  I would have the player pull out a pre-prepared alternate PC for the duration.  I would pull out the pre-prepared scenario about finding MicroLad.
 
It would shake things up a bit.
 
With an NPC then it is even less so.
 
All in my incredibly humble opinion, of course.
 
Doc

I've built up a collection of resources over the years: not just sourcebooks and adventures, but also writings, homemade maps, downloads, etc. But I've also forgotten or misplaced a lot of what I have, mainly due to disuse and disorganized bookkeeping. As a result, I tend to reinvent the wheel a few times instead of recycling what I've already got. Worse, I usually can't find what you need when I look for it.
 
My next project will be organizing my stuff so I can find what I want without having to go over everything with a fine-toothed comb. It will also save me a lot of time and effort when I need to add details to my homebrew campaigns.