Supers and the law

[Dominique]

Over the past few days, there have been several discussions going back and forth that got me thinking about superheroes and the law. Just how much legal authority do you grant your PCs? Are they completely on their own; do you grant them some type of limited law enforcement powers; or are they full blown law enforcement officers?

[Chuckg]

Re: Supers and the law

 

I generally use the default values and legal precedents laid out in the 5e "Champions Universe" and 4e "Dark Champions" supplements.

 

The Champions game I've DM'ed, and all but one of the PCs I have, used 'sanctioned heroes' -- that is to say, heroes who were granted a measure of Legal Enforcement Powers and official recognition in return for accepting many of the same restrictions on their actions as any other law enforcement officer.

 

(Actually, even Baron von Darien -- a master vampire -- technically qualifies as 'sanctioned', although he falsified virtually everything on his license application and also operates off-the-reservation as need be. *g*)

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: Supers and the law

 

Varies wildly... from sanctioned law enforcement officers with all the procedural baggage that entails, to vigilantes hunted by the government.

 

NorCal Heroes:

In the PBEM I'm GMing, the players are deputized representatives of the California State Police. They are authorized to use lethal force under very very limited circumstances, as are the actual police (you can't just 'pop a cap' in a perp because he's stealing or whatever), they must turn captured villains over for arrest and trial, and they're subject to scrutiny by the media for their actions. It's going pretty well so far, everyone has been careful and are about to begin reaping the benefits of this.

 

Adamant/Chemo/The Analogist:

All are characters I run in the GGU PBEM, all are members of 'state-sanctioned' super teams. Adamant's in the Global Guardians (United Nations superhuman enforcement branch), Chemo's in the South Warriors (Latin American multi-national super team), the Analogist is in Canadian Shield (RCMP officers in a special branch).

 

Vindicator:

In the FtF game I'm a player in, Vindicator is in a 'dark version' of America, fighting the good fight against an 'Evil Oligarchy' which has suborned the nation via electoral fraud and through intimidation by their metahuman paramilitary forces and secret detention of political opponents. Sort of a 'Age of Apocalypse' but set in a contemporary world with some modification. As a hero, he's pretty much wanted by the federal authorities and quietly supported by most of the locals ('Robin Hood' syndrome).Vindicator

 

Singularity:

Is a superhero operating with the New York Knights hero group, though he hasn't formally joined it yet. He's not affiliated with a government or law-enforcement agency, and pretty much operates under the umbrella of 'citizen's arrest' in his confrontation of villains.

[Dominique]

Re: Supers and the law

 

How realistic are you in application of the law? Say having a lowly thug/henchman file a 1983 civil rights violation against a hero for use of excessive force for hitting him with an EB, or having a case thrown out for your PCs not having a valid search Warrant. "Even though Stryker found $200 million in hi-tech weapons in Dr. Death's HQ, he dind't have a warrant and the judge threw the case out."

[Hermit]

Re: Supers and the law

 

My group is not big on the sanctioning. Citizen's arrests are wonderful things.

[Chuckg]

Re: Supers and the law

 

I generally operate on the basis that most juries don't /want/ Dr. Death and Mayhem Man back out on the streets and tearing up the city they live in, and tend to react accordingly to the people who are responsible for keeping supervillains like those two in the slam.

 

On the other hand, such things make an excellent DM tool for reminding players to restrain themselves a bit. If Nuclear-Bolt-Man keep throwing his 15d6 EB into 100-point thugs, he /will/ eventually get hit with a lawsuit... if not manslaughter charges if he rolls too many 6s (as 15d6 of damage into a normal can quite potentially kill them). If my players keep ignoring their responsibilities to obey procedure under sanctioning and only take the bennies while trying to slough off the limitations, then they eventually /will/ lose a case due to inadmissible evidence. Etc.

 

However, you should tighten the screws on the players like this /only/ when their own lax or irresponsible behavior makes it justified (and preferably, only after they've had fair warning), not just because you can. Realism schmealism, if you're being too much of an anal jerk for your players to have any fun, you soon won't have any players.

 

 

Note -- in my now-on-hiatus 'Aegis' campaign, the players are at present facing lawsuits for everything and its mother. However, this is because VIPER is attacking them with lawyers, and the players accept that I'm doing this because it's a legitimate supervillain trick, not because I'm out to shaft them. Plus, most of the lawsuits /are/ 'nuisance value only', they can't seriously hold up in court.

 

Most.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: Supers and the law

 

Pretty realistic, in that legal defense strategies which get convictions overturned based on 'loopholes' are pretty rare IRL. It happens, just not very often. Where the players are officers of the law, they may use the 'probable cause' rationale to pursue/investigate criminal activity. Where they're not, the actions they engage in are those of a private citizen and aren't subject to things like Miranda or needing a warrant.

 

They ARE liable for their behavior, but if they're being 'good' the liability is largely subsumed by 'good samaritan' laws for the non-sanctioned heroes or by operating in the context of their job as peace officers for the sanctioned ones.

[Dominique]

Re: Supers and the law

 

Way back in the day, I had a PC who liked to "Spotlight" (focus the attention on himself), and was getting on a few other players nerves. So to bring him down a few pegs, I had a greedy NPC (a shady businessman), that had been a pain in the PCs butt before, trademark his characters name. He then sued the PC in court (amazingly the PC lost the case), and had to pay for the use of the name. While now it seems a little mean, it did have it's desired effect.

[Ken Solo]

Re: Supers and the law

 

This kind of ties in with the question I was trying to ask elsewhere.

How does the Law apply to supers in your campaign?

In the 5E Champions Universe (p.48) it states that "sentient aliens, extradimensional entities, artificial intelligences, and the undead...are not 'persons' under the law" and thus are not protected by the 14th amendments guatantees.

It also says Congress has passed laws granting at least limited rights to all 'independant, free-willed, sentient entities in American territory.

 

 

Here is the real question: If an established hero, protecting a region for 15 years, happens to be an Ent (tree-person) and he is killed, is it murder?

What about his long time teammate, explorer from the planet Luthia, when he got blasted apart by Sparkler, was it murder?

Or can anyone do anything they want to aliens, undead ect, because they have no rights as 'non-persons'?

What would you rule in your game?

[Cancer]

Re: Supers and the law

 

Here is the real question: If an established hero, protecting a region for 15 years, happens to be an Ent (tree-person) and he is killed, is it murder?

What about his long time teammate, explorer from the planet Luthia, when he got blasted apart by Sparkler, was it murder?

Or can anyone do anything they want to aliens, undead ect, because they have no rights as 'non-persons'?

 

Actually, in a real-life college course I have asked exactly this question in hopes of getting a high-quality term paper out of a student about it. Law is strongly backward-looking, not forward-looking. If a situation hasn't happened, there probably isn't a law covering it, and existing law will be carried forward as much as possible if the situation arises.

 

The best response I have to date came from one student who interviewed an uncle of hers who, she said, was a senior judge here in WA. The response was torturuous enough that I believe her.

 

In the absence of other precedents, and of direct statutes, something that could be assumed to be an extraterrestrial alien would almost certainly have the same protections and obligations under the law as a human foreign national. In other words, kill them and it's murder, injure them and it's assault, and the other way around. (That opens questions about illegal entry into the country, but those questions were not addressed. The question of how a non-humanoid would be recognized as sentient rather than animal, vegetable, or mechanical was also not addressed. The question as read said "little green man from a flying saucer" that landed in your back yard.)

 

I assume that if supers exist and are publicly acknowledged, then there would be laws passed for handling their peculiar circumstances. At that point the GM makes up what he wants and runs with it.

[Kirby]

Re: Supers and the law

 

My group is not big on the sanctioning. Citizen's arrests are wonderful things.

Ditto. Besides, you can't be tried for killing the undead.

[sinanju]

Re: Supers and the law

 

Ditto. Besides' date=' you can't be tried for killing the undead.[/quote']

 

Says you!

 

In the Anita Blake universe, you certainly can. Vampires have legal rights--and killing a vampire without either a) a death warrant from a court, or in self defense is still murder.

 

So it depends on the environment. If nobody knows the undead exist and they conveniently leave no corpse to provoke an investigation by the authorities (who will assume the corpse used to be a real person), you can get away with it. If undead are known to exist and hated as irredeemable monsters, you'll be cheered.

[Dominique]

Re: Supers and the law

 

How well do law enforcement agencies work with your characters?

[Chuckg]

Re: Supers and the law

 

New Sentinels Campaign (I'm a player in it, currently on hiatus) -- the New Sentinels are the successor team to the original Sentinels, the foremost superhero team in the world, the equivalent of the JLA. Our team leader is effectively Superman, has the President as a personal contact and enough /gravitas/ to face down UNTIL High Command.

 

The authorities work with us very, very, /very/ nicely.

 

 

Aegis Campaign (I'm the DM, currently on hiatus) -- the Aegis team is a group of starting-level heroes, but they are also the official superteam of Chicago. As deputized peace officers and city employees, their relationship w/ the authorities is obvious. Their relationships with Federal authorities are slightly colored by the fact that the local Silver Avenger is an officious jerk, but he's an /honest/ officious jerk, so it doesn't get in the way much during real emergencies. Simply at every other minute of the day.

[Ken Solo]

Re: Supers and the law

 

How well do law enforcement agencies work with your characters?

Pretty well, as one of the team is a police officer on the city police force (technicly a patrolman), another is a PRIMUS agent (I decided PRIMUS has the 16 major bases in the big cities, and offices of 1 or 2 agents scattered in another 40 cities), and 3 others work under a Federal super-agent program. The rest of the team just hangs around the official types.

[ZootSoot]

Re: Supers and the law

 

Over the past few days' date=' there have been several discussions going back and forth that got me thinking about superheroes and the law. Just how much legal authority do you grant your PCs? Are they completely on their own; do you grant them some type of limited law enforcement powers; or are they full blown law enforcement officers?[/quote']

 

 

When you put on a mask and go out to fight "crime" you are, by definition, a criminal subject to arrest and prosecution for your crimes including all those "incidental crimes" of property destruction and reckless endangerment. In some jurisdictions, if someone dies because of your actions, you will automatically be charged with first degree murder with special circumstances.

[Black Omega]

Re: Supers and the law

 

Says you!

 

In the Anita Blake universe, you certainly can. Vampires have legal rights--and killing a vampire without either a) a death warrant from a court, or in self defense is still murder.

 

So it depends on the environment. If nobody knows the undead exist and they conveniently leave no corpse to provoke an investigation by the authorities (who will assume the corpse used to be a real person), you can get away with it. If undead are known to exist and hated as irredeemable monsters, you'll be cheered.

Agreed here. I'm working up the legal issues of the Anitaverse for a game and basically with vampires being protected by the laws, killing them is like killing any human. Which is not to say the police treat a vampire killing like a regular murder. Vampires could be killed on sight a few years before, old habits die hard.

[Kirby]

Re: Supers and the law

 

Says you!

 

In the Anita Blake universe, you certainly can.

Good thing this is the CU , not the ABu. Anyway, brain-eating zombies, flesh-eating ghouls, and blood-sucking vampires generally have no rights. Considering they're generally considered dead, it's hard to kill them twice. "But your honor, he died 100 years ago!"

 

Of course, laws can always be altered to fit one's one campaign.

[Wanderer]

Re: Supers and the law

 

When you put on a mask and go out to fight "crime" you are' date=' by definition, a criminal subject to arrest and prosecution for your crimes including all those "incidental crimes" of property destruction and reckless endangerment. In some jurisdictions, if someone dies because of your actions, you will automatically be charged with first degree murder with special circumstances.[/quote']

 

I tend to go for the realistic approach, both in society and psychology of supers, so in my settings "incidental crimes" laws are either repealed or not enforced, the same way suing supers on flimsly pretexts a la Incredibles is forbidden or curtailed by more extensive "good samaritan" exceptions and privilges for state- or federally-sanctioned super-agents.

 

Why ? Beacuse in a world full of powerful supers, laws like these are a surefire way to alienate the majority of superhumans against human laws and society, and that road can only lead the fall of the Rule of Man, in the long term. You really don't want to alienate sentient Weapons of Mass Destruction with legal harassment so much tehy the only way to be left alone is to set up as dictator, unless they are acting really, really destructive.

 

On the more general topic, I prefer to set up things so that most supers are either federally-sanctioned super-agents and super-soldiers working for some branch of the government (FBI, CIA, the Army, NASA, Aviation, etc.) or even international agency (ONU, NATO, etc.). Probably in such a worls "posse comitatus" laws would be repealed as fedelly-sanctioned super-soldiers are too precious not to be employed full-spectrum for domestic crime and disaster prevention one week and international crime or intelligence operations the next.

 

Almost all the other supers who are too untrustworthy to be sanctioned and employed by the government would be hunted vigilantes and political activists, putting themselves on the line for all kinds of causes, from vigilante crimefighting to radical environmentalism.

[gewing]

Re: Supers and the law

 

When you put on a mask and go out to fight "crime" you are' date=' by definition, a criminal subject to arrest and prosecution for your crimes including all those "incidental crimes" of property destruction and reckless endangerment. In some jurisdictions, if someone dies because of your actions, you will automatically be charged with first degree murder with special circumstances.[/quote']

 

 

Not if you are an FBI agent.

[sinanju]

Re: Supers and the law

 

Good thing this is the CU ' date=' not the ABu.[/quote']

 

True, but it very effectively squashes the claim that killing a vampire is no big deal. It may not be, but then again it may. Depends on your environment.

 

Anyway, brain-eating zombies, flesh-eating ghouls, and blood-sucking vampires generally have no rights. Considering they're generally considered dead, it's hard to kill them twice. "But your honor, he died 100 years ago!"

 

That argument isn't likely to get you very far if the "dead man" was a regular contributor to the Mayor's reelection fund and whatnot.

[Kirby]

Re: Supers and the law

 

That argument isn't likely to get you very far if the "dead man" was a regular contributor to the Mayor's reelection fund and whatnot.

It will get me even farther when the equal-rights mold on the Mayor's wall turns informant and those were really illegal kickbacks. "Mayor bought to allow the dead to vote. News at 11."

[Wanderer]

Re: Supers and the law

 

Not if you are an FBI agent.

 

Yep. Now, if I might branch out the discussion a little, what prerequisites would you require for the character or group to have federal or international sanction ? Apart from the obvious (no outstanding criminal warrants, no confrontational attitude with human authorities, no radical activism, no vigilantism), it seems from Avengers that heroes might be always liable to lose their federal or U.N. sanction to the drop of an hair, without no real wrongdoing ?

 

Maybe making your powers and secret ID available for analysis and record in secret government databases, being a kind of "superhuman reserve/national guard" available for mobilization for big crises (maybe even for military action and/or "black" intelligence ops, in realistic, non 4-color settings), sharing any unsual tech or mystic devices with government experts.

 

But what about psychological testing ? which Psych Lims would make a super unsuitable for sanctioning ?

 

And which resources would a super get from sanctioning, apart from national or international police powers ? Equipment ? Agents Backup ? Base subsidizing ? access to databases ? a salary (Money) ? contacts ?

 

Oh, and the mandatory obnoxious government liason who is either a closet metahuman-hater, a pencil-pusher bureaucrat miring the team in red tape, or a spy for Dr. Destroyer, VIPER, or the Institute for Human Advancement.

[Kirby]

Re: Supers and the law

 

Most of your questions can be answered with "the same as for normals." The others would just depend on the situation (such as technology - if there are patents, there's no legal reason the PC has to share).

 

And I would think that in regards to your last statement, that person should be nixed by the psychological test. Those that pass do so for plot reasons.