Destroying Summoned Creatures

[bigdamnhero]

I've always treated Summoned creatures - demons and so forth - as destroyed when they reach 0 Body. But when it came up in game last week, a player said he thought they wouldn't be destroyed until they reach Negative Starting Body, just like any other character. We tried to look it up, and sure enough there doesn't appear to be any specific rule that Summoned creatures die any differently from regular characters. (Apart from being Dispelled, ordered away, etc.)

 

I think it comes down to I just don't like the "esthetic" of having a demon unconscious and bleeding out on the ground - when they go down, they should go poof back to the abyss from whence they came.

 

So how do others handle this? Do you treat demons any different from other Summoned creatures, like robots, animals, or people? And if so, is that worth a Limitation? Does heroic-vs-superheroic matter?

[Hugh Neilson]

Make it a Physical Complication - destroyed at 0 BOD.

[Ndreare]

I have always gone with what feels right. 

 

For example in a horror game they go poof, while in a standard fantasy game they stick around just like any other being.

[Lucius]

 

 

I think it comes down to I just don't like the "esthetic" of having a demon unconscious and bleeding out on the ground - when they go down, they should go poof back to the abyss from whence they came.

 

If you do not want them to go unconscious, use the Takes No Stun Power. That's not a power a Summoned creature has "by default." And consciousness and unconsciousness are functions of the STUN total, not BODy.

 

If you do not want them to bleed, use the Does not Bleed Power. That's not a power a Summoned creature has "by default." Or buy the Takes No Stun Power at the highest level, at which point they do in fact cease to effectively exist (die, go "poof" or whatever's appropriate) at zero BOD and don't lose functions along the way while getting there, making it the most expensive but simplest solution.  

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to summon destroyed creatures

[Christopher R Taylor]

He's right, gotta be -BOD.  However, in my games, summoned creatures can be sent away by dispelling their original summon spell; Summon is technically an instant spell, but I treat their presence as a continuing effect of the summon (like transforms are instant but many can be dispelled).  That way a powerful mage can snap his fingers and make the nasty monster go poof without killing them.

[bigdamnhero]

Make it a Physical Complication - destroyed at 0 BOD.

That's probably the easiest way!

 

If you do not want them to go unconscious, use the Takes No Stun Power. That's not a power a Summoned creature has "by default." And consciousness and unconsciousness are functions of the STUN total, not BODy.

 

If you do not want them to bleed, use the Does not Bleed Power. That's not a power a Summoned creature has "by default." Or buy the Takes No Stun Power at the highest level, at which point they do in fact cease to effectively exist (die, go "poof" or whatever's appropriate) at zero BOD and don't lose functions along the way while getting there, making it the most expensive but simplest solution.  

Huh. I'd never considered throwing Automaton powers on a demon, but it's not a bad idea. I'm not opposed in principle to demons bleeding, or even getting knocked out per se, it just seems like when they go down they should disappear. I tend to treat most NPCs that way, aside from Major Villains - once they're down they stay down, and they're dead at 0 Body - to avoid protracted whack-a-mole battles. So I guess I've always just applied the same rule to demons and never really thought about it.

 

However, in my games, summoned creatures can be sent away by dispelling their original summon spell...

That's actually how the rules are written, CC p83.

[WistfulD]

Whack-a-mole battles are only a problem with Body if you have significant amounts of healing or regeneration going on. If the demon summoner is spending his time, points, and energy buffing and healing his summoned demons, he should get the advantage of that investment. If you want to give a demon with regeneration the limitation (does not work when brought below 0 body), that's pretty reasonable too. If no one's going to be healing the demons, having them go poof when they go below 0 body is just a special effect/story short-hand.

[bigdamnhero]

Whack-a-mole battles are only a problem with Body if you have significant amounts of healing or regeneration going on.

Not necessarily. Per RAW, a character at negative BODY but above negative starting BODY (ie, dying but not yet dead) is still conscious and can still act as long as they still have positive STUN. (Tho maybe with penalties, maybe requires an EGO roll, etc.) If they do go to negative STUN, they still recover as normal, which usually means they'll be back on their feet soon enough. Now granted, I usually don't run mooks that way. But that's exactly my point: if the cultists die-and-stay-dead at 0 BODY, should the demon they summoned be treated the same way or not? OTOH, if a PC doesn't die-and-stay-dead until negative starting Body, should the demon they summoned be treated any differently? (At least not without some point compensation.)

[bigbywolfe]

You only recover at normal speed until -10 stun, after that it takes longer.

[Ninja-Bear]

Bigdamnhero I just run monsters and mooks to zero body. So your demon I would have go poof at zero body no fuss.

[Greywind]

Well, if you're playing urban fantasy, you might need a cleaning crew.

 

...in haz-mat suits.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Make it a campaign meta rule. Just make sure everyone knows it.

[Christopher]

Not necessarily. Per RAW, a character at negative BODY but above negative starting BODY (ie, dying but not yet dead) is still conscious and can still act as long as they still have positive STUN. (Tho maybe with penalties, maybe requires an EGO roll, etc.) If they do go to negative STUN, they still recover as normal, which usually means they'll be back on their feet soon enough. Now granted, I usually don't run mooks that way. But that's exactly my point: if the cultists die-and-stay-dead at 0 BODY, should the demon they summoned be treated the same way or not? OTOH, if a PC doesn't die-and-stay-dead until negative starting Body, should the demon they summoned be treated any differently? (At least not without some point compensation.)

Rules like "one hit and die" or "removed from combat at 0 BODY/0 STUN" rather then full tracking are a reaction to those characters not being important enough to spend time for detailed tracking.

That summoned beings go "poof" rather then leave a (lootable) corpse is a seperate question.

 

So the real question is: Does this summoned demon warant full attention?

Is he the actuall main antagonist (with the cultists being only his mooks)? Then surely you should track him all the way to negative body.*

Are those demons mooks summoned by the main antagonist? Apply the usual rules for mooks.

 

 

*Of course keep in mind that there can be a demon without anybody having bought the summon power. The same way there can be a dungeon without anyone having bought a base. If the GM decides the boss battle is "one demon and a bunch of cultist mooks", then that just happens.

[Christopher R Taylor]

 

 

That's actually how the rules are written, CC p83.

 

There was a little tickle in the back of my head that said so but I didn't want to presume.

[bigdamnhero]

Follow-up question: in the case that brought this to mind, the demon is Summoned and controlled by a PC, not an NPC. Does that change your answer? Why, or why not?

[zslane]

What is the concept/special effect of the Summon?

 

If the demon is literally being summoned (i.e., called out to mystically), and when it appears it is "gating" in with its own power, then going "poof" would be a function of its own teleportation ability, and not subject to the whims of the summoner. If, on the other hand, summoning means dragging the demon into our dimension against its will, then sending it back would be under the summoner's control (or lack of it if he goes unconscious), and it would have nothing to do with the demon's own physical condition.

 

Determining how a power should "work", as always, depends entirely on its concept and sfx. Without knowing those things, it is impossible to really advise how to design it or run it in play.

[Lucius]

Follow-up question: in the case that brought this to mind, the demon is Summoned and controlled by a PC, not an NPC. Does that change your answer? Why, or why not?

 

Just to make it more specific.

 

If the player does not want them to go unconscious, they should use the Takes No Stun Power. That's not a power a Summoned creature has "by default." And consciousness and unconsciousness are functions of the STUN total, not BODy. If you're running the game and you don't want summoned creatures to go unconscious, make it a ground rule that summoned creatures are built to Take No Stun.

 

If the player does not want them to bleed, they should use the Does not Bleed Power. That's not a power a Summoned creature has "by default." Or buy the Takes No Stun Power at the highest level, at which point they do in fact cease to effectively exist (die, go "poof" or whatever's appropriate) at zero BOD and don't lose functions along the way while getting there, making it the most expensive but simplest solution. Or again, if you're running the game and so choose, put the appropriate Powers in your ground rules for summoned beings.

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to create summoned destroyers

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well let's see, a Spruance-class destroyer in Ultimate Vehicle 5th edition costs 811 points, wouldn't be a lot different for 6th edition so Palindromedary would need 162 active points to summon one without any amicability advantage.  And a lot of room.

[bigdamnhero]

What is the concept/special effect of the Summon?.

Fair question. We're using mostly standard Bestiary demon write-ups, and none of them are built as having EDM. So I'd have to say it's the Summoning spell doing the movement. Nevertheless a common genre trope is that when demons/devils are destroyed their physical bodies go poof and their not-souls go back to Hell. Typically that's just an sfx with no/minimal game effect. My question is does it happen at 0 BODY or at Negative Starting Body?

 

If the player does not want them to go unconscious, they should use the Takes No Stun Power...If the player does not want them to bleed, they should use the Does not Bleed Power.

Yes, I understand that. But neither of those are the question I'm asking, which again is: destroyed at 0 BODY or at Negative Starting Body?

 

Based on this discussion, I think the best answer (for me, for this situation) is: by RAW, they're destroyed at Negative Starting Body, and if I want them to be destroyed at 0 Body that's a Physical Complication. Unless they're mooks, in which case don't sweat it. YMMV of course. Thanks everyone!

[zslane]

I agree that this sort of thing falls under GM/campaign discretion. It is very common for GMs to treat 0 STUN as equivalent to GMUnc for thugs, just to speed things up. In that vein, I would take no issue with a campaign rule that says minion-calibre demons die/go-poof at 0 BODY (treated as equivalent to -BODY). For boss-calibre demons, however, I think you'd want them to have all the same benefits as PCs, including full STUN/BODY damage/recovery benefits.

[bigdamnhero]

I think that sums it up well, and helped clarify in my mind why I was struggling: the demons in this case are halfway between minion and boss level. (350-400 point demons, vs 500 point PCs.) Call it Sidekick level. So which set of campaign rules should I apply? If it was a 350-point Follower, obviously I'd apply full PC rules. But if this demon dies the PC can just summon another one, so I don't think of it in the same category. I don't know that should matter as to when it goes poof, but it did in my head. Thanks!

[zslane]

Assuming such a ruling has no noticible play-balance impact, go with whatever helps you tell a better story, as it were. If the game flows better and everyone has more fun with summoned demons that go poof at 0 BODY, then by all means do it that way.