Life Support: Extreme Heat and Cold

[Steve]

Narosia introduced levels of Life Support in its version of the Hero rules for heat and cold resistance that range from 1-5 points that I thought was an interesting expansion, much like how Post-Apocalypse Hero did for radiation resistance. Each point spent extended the range of comfortable temperatures, so 1 point of Lie Support: Extreme Cold protected against temps down below freezing and each additional point spent on the ability lowered it even further.

[massey]

I don't like that approach.  It's putting a point value on something that is entirely discretionary.  Is there really any difference between someone who can survive -40 degree temperatures and -70 degree temps in a game?

 

I wouldn't have a problem with it, except LS: Heat and LS: Cold were 2 point powers before.  This is just character point inflation for no good game reason.

[Steve]

Yes, but two points of cold resistance in the RAW would let you go to absolute zero, as far as I know. I liked the idea of gradations for different races. Maybe mountain goblins only get a point of resistance, but a yeti gets three.

[massey]

I'd be fine with a 1 point version.  But what game effect will more gradations have, really?  Is your yeti going to be playing around in liquid hydrogen?  Probably not.  Is there a "coldest place on fantasy world" where it's too cold for the yeti?  Probably not.  I think cold-resistant and immune-to-cold are the only two levels you'd need.  If even that much.  At the end of the day, you're increasing the point cost of something that doesn't give you all that much of a benefit.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Just as LS: Heat doesn't let you wade through magma, LS: Cold shouldn't have you handling liquid hydrogen and other super cold fun stuff. If you're going to have a gradation system, then you have to figure out what the damage is from severe conditions, which might be a lot more work than you need.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its more specific than I need but I could see something like that having value in, say a sci fi game.

What I'd probably do is break down the 2 points into levels rather than adding more points.  Say, 1 point gets you down to 10 below, and 2 points down to 70 below or something like that.  Anything under a certain level of cold is just going to be an attack anyway.

[Lucius]

While I can understand the desire for more granularity, I doubt the inflation of cost is worth it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Protection from Palindromedaries

[Hugh Neilson]

"More granular" is as simple as "1 point allows you to survive at any temperature down to freezing; 2 points is any level of cold" and having a character pay 2 points and define his lower limit as -40. So he is a little less immune than he could have been - toss him a Hero Point if he ends up out at -45 for building his vision of the character and not being a Point Whore.

[Mister E]

The paraelemental plane if ice supports fancifully cold environment where all kinds of unusual things freeze.

 

Sound, light, fire, even ice freezes at a certain point.

[bigdamnhero]

Yeah, it's always bugged me that the effects of heat/cold are gradated, but the "defense" against it is all-or-nothing. There's a huge difference between "New York winters don't bother me" and "Blizzard in Antarctica? No problem?" (Or at least, there should be.)

 

Ideally, X points of LS should buy you protection against Y Temperature Levels. The challenge is the number of times it comes up in most games, especially Champions games, is probably small enough that anything more than X=2; Y="All" probably isn't cost-effective. OTOH, for heroic games, especially if you're not paying points for equipment, then distinguishing between "This parka is rated to 0F" and "This parka is rated to -100F" might make sense, and could be easily handled without worrying about points.

[Steve]

I agree that superheroes are priced fine as is, based on dramatic need. For Heroic-level campaigns, LS vs Cold or Heat may be the only one characters purchase, so having them priced at 1-5 points isn't so bad.

 

It costs points for extended lifespan, and that usually doesn't have any game effect. Extreme cold or heat is more likely to occur in a campaign than having centuries of time pass.

[bigdamnhero]

Hmmm...what about if we went at it from the other direction and tied LS: Heat/Cold to combat defenses? Maybe say X AP of defense against Cold attacks - whether bought as ED, rED, DR or DN - protects against Y Temperature Levels? I'm making this up as I type, so I'm not sure what X and Y should be here. I don't know whether it makes sense to just House Rule that it works that way, or make it an Adder/Advantage? The latter would allow more customization by sfx; so for example, heavy armor might help protect against cold weather, but won't help you in hot weather. Maybe a 1-pt Adder for either "Protects Against Cold Temperatures" or "Protects Against Hot Temperatures?" Or a +1/4 Advantage?

[Lucius]

I agree that superheroes are priced fine as is, based on dramatic need. For Heroic-level campaigns, LS vs Cold or Heat may be the only one characters purchase, so having them priced at 1-5 points isn't so bad.

 

It costs points for extended lifespan, and that usually doesn't have any game effect. Extreme cold or heat is more likely to occur in a campaign than having centuries of time pass.

You have a point....

 

edit: but it's more an argument for making longevity cheaper than for making immunity to temperatures more expensive.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary wants to take a century to consider it

[Steve]

I could make a similar argument for a 1-5 range for heat and cold, since that is what is used for poisons and diseases.

 

Maybe the range for aging could be shrunk to 1-3 (300/1000/Immortal), but I'm fine with a 1-5 range.

 

In Narosia, in addition to providing immunity to exposure effects up to the temperature limit, LS versus heat and cold also provides a form of damage reduction versus exposure damage even if it goes past the immune range, which I think helps justify the cost range.

[Lucius]

I could make a similar argument for a 1-5 range for heat and cold, since that is what is used for poisons and diseases.

 

Maybe the range for aging could be shrunk to 1-3 (300/1000/Immortal), but I'm fine with a 1-5 range.

 

In Narosia, in addition to providing immunity to exposure effects up to the temperature limit, LS versus heat and cold also provides a form of damage reduction versus exposure damage even if it goes past the immune range, which I think helps justify the cost range.

Okay, that does make a difference.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys Life Support: Diplomatic Immunity

[Zephrosyne]

Just curious, can someone who has the product list what the 1-5 scale for both heat and cold or is that a copyright issue?  I'm really curious.

[Hyper-Man]

misread the thread....

[bigbywolfe]

They are discussing house rule variants to RAW (Rules As Written). By default the cost for Life Support vs. Intense Heat and Intense Cold are 2 points each.

Pretty sure they are discussing Narosia, Sea of Tears, so a Campaign setting rule, not House rule.

[Christopher]

Yes, but two points of cold resistance in the RAW would let you go to absolute zero, as far as I know. I liked the idea of gradations for different races. Maybe mountain goblins only get a point of resistance, but a yeti gets three.

 

Just as LS: Heat doesn't let you wade through magma, LS: Cold shouldn't have you handling liquid hydrogen and other super cold fun stuff. If you're going to have a gradation system, then you have to figure out what the damage is from severe conditions, which might be a lot more work than you need.

LS by RAW only deals with 100% natural effects. Natural levels of cold or heat. It stops working when the effect does real damage (Blast or RKA).

That you can write it as defense for a NND or UAA is a happy side effect as I see it (it is a bit of column A and a bit of column B ).

 

We don't have LS: Electromagentic Effects, because we can't really think of effects that do less then X dices of damage per phase or segment and would be relevant.

We don't need to clarify that LS: Heat does not cover taking a bath in lava or the sun. It is obviously those do real damage.

 

LS: Cold is especially tricky, because the absolute min temperature is so close to our normal one. And becase stuff only get's so cold on our planet naturally. Annoyingly it is in the habitable zone of the local star

 

 

In Narosia, in addition to providing immunity to exposure effects up to the temperature limit, LS versus heat and cold also provides a form of damage reduction versus exposure damage even if it goes past the immune range, which I think helps justify the cost range.

It works as damage reduction vs dice carrying attacks? If so only cost up to 5 points ins a downright bargain.

It might help if you give us some example temperature levels, comfort zones, and effects for being X levels out of yours.

 

Pretty sure they are discussing Narosia, Sea of Tears, so a Campaign setting rule, not House rule.

A campaign setting rule is just a house rule written down in a book, so the argument is still valid.

 

The point was this is not Raw/Core rules. They were designed in a specific situation (a campaign setting) to deal with a specific problem (apparently cold and heat are more granular there).

Wich means for a whole lot of other scenarios it should not be applied.

[Steve]

The defense is only versus an environmental condition or Change Environment, not attack powers, just like in the RAW version. In the Narosia version, a character reduces their exposure damage by 25/50/75/90/100%, depending on points spent, even in temperatures outside their range. So 1 point will give you 25% damage reduction versus sub-zero temperatures for exposure or Change Environment.

 

Here are some sample levels from the book.

 

1 point of LS: Intense Cold (-2 Temp Levels/10C/14F/75% Exposure)

2 points of LS: Intense Cold (-4 Temp Levels/-30C/-22F/50% Exposure)

 

Each additional point doubles the maximum Temp Levels -8, -16 and then Immune To Cold at 5 points.

 

Heat follows the same pattern: +2/+4/+8/+16/Immune.

 

In 4th Edition, Heat and Cold were three points each, so this expands each out by two points from that and does a range of defenses instead of all or nothing.