How much of a limitation would Needs END be?

[Simon]

7 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

If I am linking one reserve to another why not simply link the powers the second reserve power to the reserve and not bother with the second reserve.   That is a lot more complicated and expensive so it makes no sense to do that.  You should not have to pay more to limit a character and Simons way is costing more than having the power not use END.  

See previous response - you're not looking at it right...and it sounds like you're still figuring out the concept (or explaining it differently now).

 

What you're describing with just a few non-com systems bound to the suit's battery is simply a matter of tying them into the same END Reserve as everything else.  So one END Reserve, sized based on the amount of time the character should be effective in combat.  
 

You're looking to have the effect of END usage over long periods of non-combat time...but then not wanting to deal with the hassle of figuring END usage over long periods of non-combat time.  So figure out what the effect is that you're looking to model.  If I'm reading your most recent explanation correctly, you're looking for some non-com abilities to be bound to the suit's power supply....and the suit's power supply should be slowly drained by those non-com systems over a period of time (days).  

Non-com abilities that you want to function in that manner need to Cost END and be bound to the suit's END Reserve.  This will have a negligible effect in combat....and out of combat you can avoid having to deal with LTE rules or any fiddly things like that by Limiting the suit's END Reserve (not the Powers themselves) -- easiest would be to use Limited Power to represent the END Reserve draining slowly over time when away from base (base the value on however often you want to track it -- loses 200 END daily, 10 END hourly, etc.). The Limitation value would be based on the GM's input for how often the characters are going to be away from the suit's power source for extended periods.

[IndianaJoe3]

Coming at this from a different angle... how about making it a Physical Complication instead of limiting the individual powers?

[LoneWolf]

My concept is the same it has always been.  The armor has some powers that draw significant amount of energy. It also has a number of systems that draw insignificant   amounts of energy.  If I start using the weapon system and force field the battery will run down in a short time.  If I do not use those systems the radio and clock and other minor systems will last for a long time.  The minor system doesn’t really drain the system enough to be tracked.  Sure eventually the clock will drain the entire battery, but that is going to take months.  The laser on the other hand will drain the battery very quickly.  If the battery is completely drained, none of the system that draws any power works. 

 

People kept assuming that the life support including the self-contained breathing was using END.  The self-contained breathing was always on a fuel charge.  It may make sense to tie the immunity to heat and cold to the battery, and I have still not decided of that.  Also the Idea that the minor system cannot be turned off was not in the concept and really makes no sense.  

 

I am trying to make the armor as realistic as I can because it fits the campaign I have in mind.  This means that unlimited power sources that can run at full draw simply do not fit.  It also makes sense that when the battery is completely drained the armor goes from something that allows the character to function effortlessly to something that becomes a bit  hindrance. The last part is mainly special effect as the character will still be able to maneuver in the armor, but now weighs him down a little and some things like the radio, clock and climate control will no longer function.   
 

The physical complication could work and I had considered it.  But it seems to me that having a power that you may not be able to use in a game once in a while is worth a limitation.  My question was not how do I write up this power, but rather do other people think that a – ¼ limitation is appropriate.  What I was looking for is feed back from others on the value of the limitation.  

[Simon]

That's an END Reserve.  Anything that requires the "battery" to function costs END and is set to pull from the Reserve.  If you're talking about months outside of combat for the minor systems to drain the battery, then don't worry about any Limitation on the Reserve itself (since it's not limiting) -- just buy the Reserve with enough END to last you the amount of time you'd like in combat, Limit the REC to only occur at the base, and you're done.  Again, outside of combat, you're not tracking END usage in the same way...and avoiding dealing with LTE is not a bad idea at all (the reason it's listed as an optional rule).

 

Powers that use the Reserve don't get some additional Limitation to reflect that they need the Reserve to have END or they go down -- that's just how END-using Powers work.

[LoneWolf]

Simon

 

I am aware of how the END rules work.  But the game also allows for limited and conditional powers that can change how things work.  Normally a power works against any color, but I can put a limitation on my power does not work against the color yellow.  Now my blast is not capable of affecting the yellow school bus.  What I am doing is no different.  You already suggested linking two reserves so the one did not function when the other was empty.  If that can be done with two different reserves there is no reason it cannot be done with other powers.
 

[Simon]

This is where you're being inconsistent.

 

You want various Powers like Enhanced Senses to put a slight drain on the suit's "battery" (END Reserve) -- that's accomplished by having them use the END Reserve.  They use END.  You don't need or want to create some new Limitation that reflects those Powers using/requiring the Reserve to function - that's simply how END and Reserves work.

 

Saying that you want those Powers to rely on the suit's battery, but not use END is being inconsistent in your definition -- they either need the battery to function (they use END) or they don't.

 

So...you have Powers that take the Costs END Limitation as needed and are set to draw from the Reserve.  These Powers will be taking negligible amounts of END relative to the combat abilities...and that's fine.  You size the Reserve to let you use the abilities you would typically have active in combat (including those minor ones) for the typical time that you want to be able to operate at full power.

 

Saying that the non-com abilities will slowly drain the suit's battery over a long period of time is something that you would simply define as a facet of a Reserve that can only be charged up at the base.  Unless you really want to get into LTE rules (most don't), then you just define what this is -- you don't track END outside of combat, otherwise.  

 

The suggestion to use separate Reserves was based on your earlier explanations of what you were after (or my reading of them). Your current explanation is a straightforward END Reserve, with a Limited REC (can only recharge at the base)

[Simon]

To take this another way:

 

Your initial question was "How Much of a Limitation would Needs END Be?"

Answer: None, other than Costs END (where appropriate) -- that's just how END-using Powers work.

If you're trying to model not just Powers that use END, but an END Reserve which gradually loses power when away from its charging station (ala Bob the Human Roomba), then that's the effect that you model.  You place a Limitation on the Reserve to reflect the loss of END over time. The value of that Limitation is based on the rate of the drain in END (how long it takes to lose power) and the GM's thoughts on how often that's going to occur in the campaign (how limiting that's going to be).

[zslane]

I happen to think it matters just how often this slow-drain END issue is going to affect the character. If the answer is "very rarely" then I question the merit in modeling it so accurately and bothering with all the bookkeeping it requires.

[Hugh Neilson]

Let's make it more complicated.

 

Each of those small powers gets 1 - 24 hour charge.  That's 8 steps down the charges table, so a +1/4 advantage.  Now, we also apply "Costs END to Activate" (-1/4), with the shutdown condition being the END reserve hitting zero.

 

Models the fiddly bits without the bookkeeping overheads.

[zslane]

Do the +1/4 Advantage and -1/4 Limitation cancel each other out in this case of "modeling the fiddly bits"? If so, then this is functionally equivalent to just describing how it works in a small block of text and not assigning any modifier(s) to it at all, right?

[Dr.Device]

 

 

I like Derek's -1/4 limitation on the low power systems such that they only work when there's END in the reserve, if the situation willcome up enough to be worth that much.

 

Another possibility is a Dependence on a charged battery, using the option to have powers top working instead of taking damage. I'd probably only give it five points, but if it happens a lot, and there are a lot of powers, maybe ten.

[zslane]

Dependence feels like the wrong area of the system to look for a solution for this, but maybe that's just me.

[LoneWolf]

Not all devices use power on the same scale.  A radio for example uses very little power.   A laser capable of cutting through steel like butter uses energy factored in the thousands compared to the radio.  If I have a battery that can power several dozen shots from the laser it will contain enough power for the radio to functions for years if not longer.  The drain of the radio on the battery is so insignificant as it might as well not exist. But if I fire the laser enough that the battery is completely drained the radio will no longer function. At this point I am talking real world concepts not game terms.

 

In game terms the minor systems do not cost END and do not drain the reserve.  But if the reserve is completely depleted the minor system will no longer function.   Since the reserve only recovers at when it is hooked up to a charging station at a base and recovers slowly there is a good chance that the suit will occasionally be completely drained and the minor power will not work.  I have no interest in LTE but the character may face the choice of firing his weapon or keeping the minor system functional.  So what I am asking is does this Conditional Power equate to does not work in uncommon circumstances.  If not would it be worth more or less. 

 

The suit is for a near future campaign where I am trying to keep things as realistic as I can.  
 

[Simon]

You’ve changed things again.

 

So, standard Reserve with no slow bleed over time. REC gets the Limitation for only recharging at the base.

 

Keep it simple for the non-com abilities - give them OIHID and done.  Hero ID is defined as the powered suit.  Suit has no power? You’re not in Hero ID - you’re Tony Stark with suit powered down, visor open, etc.

[LoneWolf]

On 6/27/2021 at 8:55 AM, LoneWolf said:

How much do you think a limitation that the character has to have END to use would be worth?  I am not talking about a power that actually cost END even to start.

 

 

My first post specifically stated that the power would not use END.  I have not changed anything since then except to be a little more explicit because people are ignoring that. 

 

The suit is already an OIF so only in hero ID is not appropriate or allowed.  Besides he can be in hero ID when the battery is drained.  All that does is make it so that some of the systems do not work.  

 

[Greywind]

No limitation. GM handwavium at an appropriate (or inappropriate, for the player) time.

[Hugh Neilson]

22 hours ago, zslane said:

Do the +1/4 Advantage and -1/4 Limitation cancel each other out in this case of "modeling the fiddly bits"? If so, then this is functionally equivalent to just describing how it works in a small block of text and not assigning any modifier(s) to it at all, right?

 

Well, yes and no.  Adding more advantages or imitations changes the math.  In any case, I was more addressing the crowd that wanted a mechanical build than those favouring "it has so little impact that it's fine as just SFX".

 

The fact that the two cancel out if we push for a real mechanical build does, however, suggest that no limitation is warranted.

[Grailknight]

14 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

 

 

My first post specifically stated that the power would not use END.  I have not changed anything since then except to be a little more explicit because people are ignoring that. 

 

The suit is already an OIF so only in hero ID is not appropriate or allowed.  Besides he can be in hero ID when the battery is drained.  All that does is make it so that some of the systems do not work.  

 

 

Unless we are talking about powers that cost more than 12 active points, this is purely a completion build vs handwave discussion.

 

5 point with OIF costs 3.33 so 3, with OIF plus another +1/4 costs 2.86 so 3.  Up to 12 points the savings are the same.

 

I definitely understand the desire to make things perfect but I think Derek's solution of a Custom is the closest you're going to get from both sides of the discussion.  

[dougmacd]

On 6/29/2021 at 9:34 AM, LoneWolf said:

The physical complication could work and I had considered it.  But it seems to me that having a power that you may not be able to use in a game once in a while is worth a limitation.  My question was not how do I write up this power, but rather do other people think that a – ¼ limitation is appropriate.  What I was looking for is feed back from others on the value of the limitation.  

 

Costs END Only to Activate is worth -¼. What you describe sounds significantly less limiting -- especially in the context of an END Reserve which doesn't drop to zero when your character is knocked out. So no, I don't think a -¼ limitation is appropriate.  It feels like -0 at best.

 

You could combine the two: Costs END Only to Activate (-¼) and Turns Off When END Reserve is Empty (-0). I recognize  this does not build the power you've described, but it has the benefit that no one would bat an eye at the value of the limitations.

 

 

Doug

You could treat is as the "boot up sequence" of the otherwise low-draw systems.

[LoneWolf]

Thanks guys this is the type of feedback I was looking for. There are a couple of systems on the armor where this may have shaved off a few points.  Most of the campaigns I am in are low point so every point counts.  I might have been able to squeeze out an extra slot on the multipower.  Since the consensus is that it is not worth the – ¼ I will leave it off and have the residual power of the battery be enough to keep the minor systems up.     

[unclevlad]

On 6/30/2021 at 11:35 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Well, yes and no.  Adding more advantages or imitations changes the math.  In any case, I was more addressing the crowd that wanted a mechanical build than those favouring "it has so little impact that it's fine as just SFX".

 

The fact that the two cancel out if we push for a real mechanical build does, however, suggest that no limitation is warranted.

 

They only cancel when the other advantages and limitations are equal.

It's a fairly safe bet, tho, that this won't be true here.  Granted that it'll be *close* to the same but not quite.

 

And as I noted...I think I'd be OK with the broad -1/4 limitation "must have END in the reserve" for the comms, sensors, and most life support, because the armor will presumably have a focus limitation anyway, and because the intent is the Reserve has no Recovery.  That DOES create tactical issues even if it doesn't per se actually arise.  Heck, there's plenty of limitations that actually rarely arise in practice.  That said, I still feel it's very bad real-world design, and Id shut down other systems when the Reserve runs critically low.  This may well NOT be worth a limitation, tho...especially given that we're only talking 1 or 2 points for the END that's blocked.

[LoneWolf]

The way it works out the first thing to go off line is going to be the weapon system.  That draws more END than anything else.  Most of the other things using END will draw 1 END.   So the force field and flight would be the next thing to go offline.  The last thing to go offline is going to be the minor systems.  

 

It is quite possible that the character may occasionally have to operate for days between visits to the base.  He will have few combat abilities that do not draw on the END reserve.  Martial Arts and a few weapons using charges instead of END, but most of the weapons will need END.,  
 

[Hugh Neilson]

Let's consider how limited the character actually is.  All he has to do, to avoid this limitation ever being limiting in play, is spend one less END than he has in his reserve.  Really, will you spend that last END to launch a 1d6 Blast, Fly 8 meters or keep a 5/5 Force Field up for one phase, when any of the three equals loss of the entire suite of minor powers?

 

Tell you what, my character will buy a 1d6 Blast and a 4 point END Reserve with 1 REC per hour, only when plugged into a wall outlet.  What limitation will you give him on all of his other abilities for "not if END reserve is reduced to zero"?

[dmjalund]

buy the last point of END in the reserve with Side Effects!

[IndianaJoe3]

18 hours ago, unclevlad said:

That said, I still feel it's very bad real-world design, and Id shut down other systems when the Reserve runs critically low.

 

I agree, but it's the sort of design flaw that might show up in a prototype, "last-ditch," or other deliberately-simplified system. It's less durable, but faster/cheaper to build.