Declaring Actions

[schir1964]

Does anyone have the players declare their actions from slowest to fastest on the Speed Chart?

 

Not actually taking their actions, just declaring them to sort of simulate the effect of faster characters vs slower characters.

[Tjack]

    I’m not certain what you mean.  But if it helps, we were lucky to play our games on a college campus in the classrooms.  So the first thing before the game started, some one would put up a Dex chart listing all the P.C.’s from fastest to slowest with all the phases marked out in a grid for all to see. Not just the GM.
    I hope this might help your game. Good luck.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I tried that a few times and it just slowed things down without making a significant difference on combat.  I mean its logical and seems like it would work out well to give faster people a chance to react and plan out their moves based on what slower people are doing but it rarely was an issue.

 

Instead, I started telling the players what it looked like slower NPCs were attempting to do, if it mattered, so they could decide what their actions were based on that.

[HeroGM]

17 minutes ago, Tjack said:

    I’m not certain what you mean.  But if it helps, we were lucky to play our games on a college campus in the classrooms.  So the first thing before the game started, some one would put up a Dex chart listing all the P.C.’s from fastest to slowest with all the phases marked out in a grid for all to see. Not just the GM.
    I hope this might help your game. Good luck.

 

From the lowest people say "I'm doing this" up to the fastest; that way the fastest can judge what the slowest are doing.

 

Dex 10: I'm pulling my pulsor pistol and firing at the strongest character.

 

Dex 20: I'm going to do a move and try a disarm of the dex10 guy.

 

Then everyone from highest to lowest actually makes thier rolls.

[Tjack]

23 minutes ago, HeroGM said:

 

From the lowest people say "I'm doing this" up to the fastest; that way the fastest can judge what the slowest are doing.

 

Dex 10: I'm pulling my pulsor pistol and firing at the strongest character.

 

Dex 20: I'm going to do a move and try a disarm of the dex10 guy.

 

Then everyone from highest to lowest actually makes thier rolls.

    That’s not the way things happen in the real world.  
   Let’s say Usain Bolt (High Dex)  you (Med Dex) and 98 year old Mel Brooks (Low Dex) are in the bank together when armed robbers burst in.  Do you think that Bolt’s actions will be happening at the same time as you or Mel? Or will his actions be over before poor old Mel can do anything, let alone work out a co-ordinated attack plan that will mesh with his.

   Your way is going to give players the temptation to try and make a plan on the fly that they shouldn’t be able to do.

[schir1964]

Yes, the actions do occur at the same time. There's no stop action motion here.

 

Mel Brooks  and Usain Bolt start moving at the same time. Mel Brooks heads for the alarm button. Ursain Bolt notices this and stops him from doing it since he is faster.

 

At least that's how I would perceive it in a movie.

 

The Hero System makes a point that character's action is Phase based.

So on Segment 1 all character's actions begin.

SPD 2 character's action won't finish until Segment 6.

SPD 12 character's action will finish on Segment 1.

 

Anyway, I asked the question to see what other's experience of this was like. Looks like not enough benefit to bother with.

[Scott Ruggels]

No.

 

 Players  state their action at their speed and phase.  Held actions are held for what ever the player wants to do.  Actions need bot be declared like they are in D&D.

[schir1964]

1 minute ago, Scott Ruggels said:

No.

 

 Players  state their action at their speed and phase.  Held actions are held for what ever the player wants to do.  Actions need bot be declared like they are in D&D.

 

Yes, procedurally that is what happens, but the SFX of the action is that a SPD 2 character's phase includes Segment 1 to Segment 6.

 

[Scott Ruggels]

1 minute ago, schir1964 said:

 

Yes, procedurally that is what happens, but the SFX of the action is that a SPD 2 character's phase includes Segment 1 to Segment 6.

 

 Well unless they have to abort, what they were doing in segment 12 carries until segment 6. then they declare what is going on in segment 6. 

[schir1964]

What I was getting at is does it make the game experience any different depending on when the declaration is made.

So far the only one's who's tried it says it doesn't and slows the game down.

 

[JackValhalla]

I have done the thing that you mention. I tried it out, slow declares first fast declares last, fast acts first slow acts last. In my experience it's a huge advantage and will by itself reshape your combats. The immediate effect was that high-initiative characters were able to dominate the fight entirely. The second effect of this was an immediate arms race to buy up DEX and Fast Draw to get higher initiatives.

[Duke Bushido]

7 hours ago, schir1964 said:

Does anyone have the players declare their actions from slowest to fastest on the Speed Chart?

 

Not actually taking their actions, just declaring them to sort of simulate the effect of faster characters vs slower characters.

 

 

Not yet.  It never occurred to me, to be honest.

 

 

However, if I can get an experienced adult group meeting again, I think I'd like to take a whirl at it.

 

Though  my immediate impression is the findings will be something like this:

 

 

2 hours ago, JackValhalla said:

I have done the thing that you mention. I tried it out, slow declares first fast declares last, fast acts first slow acts last. In my experience it's a huge advantage and will by itself reshape your combats. The immediate effect was that high-initiative characters were able to dominate the fight entirely. The second effect of this was an immediate arms race to buy up DEX and Fast Draw to get higher initiatives.

 

 

_However_, I would also like to point out that not only do I expect that this is accurate, but also that I believe it is _correct_.

 

For _years_ now-- for literal decades-- someone pops onto these very boards and asks "but how do I simulate the speedster thing where they are moving so fast that everyone else is standing still and they are too fast to hit and can't be shot but they can easily sidestep everything and rearrange the people so that they are all looking where they weren't and now they have to reacquire targets and I really liked that scene in that Matrix movie and the Flash seems so cool because-- anyway, how do I do that?"

 

And the answers include "put AOE on your STR; buy Duplication" and a myriad of other things-- to include tying into that popular pillar of the Trifecta of Cobble: Extra Dimensional Movement.

 

The absolute simplest answer-- and I feel like I have said this before, but never having actually done it, I haven't pushed it very hard-- is "make the Speed Chart work the way that it claims it works."  Does this create a huge disadvantage for lower-SPD characters?  I can't say empirically, but Jack V appears to have some experience with it, and that lines up with my hypothesis enough to make me want to try it even more.  So does it create a disadvantage for slower characters?  Arguably, yes.

 

Is that not exactly what you're asking to simulate when you want to simulate "a character who do fifty things before anyone else can even move or act or react?"  Also, arguably yes.

 

Is that a huge disadvantage for characters in the source material?  Again, yes, and for all the exact reasons that using the SPD Chart the way that it claims to work creates those same disadvantages in the game.

 

At the moment-- not having tested it myself-- I have to believe that not only is this the easiest way to represent the super-fast characters who can do all the things super-at once, it seems to essentially _be_ the reason the SPD Chart exists in the first place.

 

 

 

Now is this something that everyone is going to enjoy?   I can't say.  Jack V's commentary suggests "no."   My own expectations also suggest "no."

 

So is it something that we _want_ to model?  Well, given the requests for it, I am thinking yes.  Given the standard repertoire of answers such as EDM, STR: AOE, Change Environment: Dirty room to clean, etc, I am going to go out on a limb and say that we tend to find it much more satisfying to model it badly, and perhaps more expensively.

 

 

 

[schir1964]

I'm not sure why but the idea just popped into my head and I wondered if anyone else had tried it.

 

I'm not surprised by Jack's experience and like you I also could see this being a large advantage for faster characters.

 

I'm not ready to try this for my games yet though. I'd like to hear about your experience if you ever try this out Duke.

[Hotspur]

Just to clarify.  Are you suggesting a SPD 2 character would declare intent on segment 1 and act on segment 6 (either unable to change or able to do so with a penalty) while a SPD 4 character would declare on segment 1 and act on segment 3, declaring on segment 4 intentions for segment 6?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I found that over the years, the answer was what I briefly noted above.

 

Instead of using backward mechanics, to give the players an idea of what they are dealing with.  For example, Sam Speedy, the 7-speed mid range speedster acts first every phase with his 32 DEX, obviously.  So he decides he's going to attack the VIPER agents, but which ones? 

 

As a GM I have laid out the field of combat, with a perception roll if needed to spot the VIPER sniper up in the ruins of an old apartment building partly torn down like a Doll House: rooms open on one side.  So when it comes time to act, Sam asks what looks most dangerous on the field of battle: I point out all the stuff he naturally would be aware of, and anything that a PER roll he makes will reveal.  Then he can act based on that information as he chooses. 

 

For example: there are ten VIPER agents out there, all aiming rifles and weapons at the Player Characters.  He can see that three VIPER agents are setting up with a crew-served gun and aiming it at the cluster of three player characters posing dramatically where they arrived.  A Perception Roll spots that one of them is pulling out a flash grenade to throw on his phase.  A GOOD PER roll spots that sniper on the 7th floor with the VIPER super rifle, aiming at the mentalist PC.

 

Or say a character has Danger Sense: without a base roll they're sensing danger from all the VIPER agents... except that one guy over there who looks like he's going to run instead.  With a roll, they get more detailed information (the sniper, the crew served weapon, the flash grenade, etc).

 

This way, the speedster takes in everything every phase as the world waits for him to act like its "standing still."  Its reactive to the situation: each character perceives what they perceive and is important to them without knowing perfectly in advance what is happening.  Actions by enemies that players cannot perceive or detect they cannot know in advance.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

 

This idea is interesting, but I think it would probably slow things down a lot.  It sounds interesting, but what happens when a lower DEX person’s declared action gets preempted by someone with a higher DEX?  

 

For example, you have 10 DEX brick, an 18 DEX energy blaster and a 23 DEX speedster facing a DEX 20 villain.  The Brick declares he going to move up and punch the villain, the energy blaster declares he is going to put up a barrier around some innocents, so they don’t get hurt, the villain declares he is going to try and grab the item he is after, and the speedster is going to use his running grab to grab the villain and move him away from the area.  The speedster was successful in his running grab so now he and the villain are 60 hexes away from the area they started.  All the declared actions by the rest of the characters can no longer be done or are pointless. Are the characters required to continue their declared actions?  Do we have to start the whole process over again?  

 

I have said multiple times that having a high DEX does not mean you go first it means you get to choose when you go.  Most people don’t bother with the held action or only use it occasionally.  Don’t forget that the roll off is only needed when you want to perform an action at the same time.   You can also use the cover maneuver on instead of a held action. Between those two maneuvers a high DEX character can maintain gain the advantage of their DEX without slowing down the game.

 

The cover maneuver is kind of poorly written.  It states, “It’s used to simulate the common situation of holding someone at gunpoint, bowpoint, or swordpoint.”.  But then goes on to say it is usually limited to ranged attacks, and then goes on to say it can sometimes be used in HTH.  I simply ignore the part about it being limited to ranged attack
 

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

 

This idea is interesting, but I think it would probably slow things down a lot.  It sounds interesting, but what happens when a lower DEX person’s declared action gets preempted by someone with a higher DEX?  

 

For example, you have 10 DEX brick, an 18 DEX energy blaster and a 23 DEX speedster facing a DEX 20 villain.  The Brick declares he going to move up and punch the villain, the energy blaster declares he is going to put up a barrier around some innocents, so they don’t get hurt, the villain declares he is going to try and grab the item he is after, and the speedster is going to use his running grab to grab the villain and move him away from the area.  The speedster was successful in his running grab so now he and the villain are 60 hexes away from the area they started.  All the declared actions by the rest of the characters can no longer be done or are pointless. Are the characters required to continue their declared actions?  Do we have to start the whole process over again?  

 

 

What happens is that you have accurately emulated the source material.

 

Yes: speedsters are gods in the source material, at least against non-speedsters.

 

Is it fun for everyone involved?

 

No; not by a long shot.

 

 

It is accurate, though.

 

 

I won't say I endorse it, never having actually tried it, but it goes a long way toward acknowledging the unspoken reason we tend to recommend to people that there not be a lot of variance in SPD amongst the various characters.  SPD has always been outrageously expensive when compared to other characteristics.  There is a reason for that.  The problem is that it is just like the NCM problem: making it more expensive isn't the same as taking it off the table entirely.  That's the GM's job.

 

 

[HeroGM]

In Hero when I've done it it's slowed things down, in rule systems where it was written to be that it's worked about the same as Hero.

 

And I simply explained the mechanic. Real life had nothing to do with it.

[BoloOfEarth]

Having run a Champions campaign that became a War of DEX (with non-speedsters/non-martial artists having DEXs of 28-33), I wouldn't want something that encourages such behavior.  Granted, that was in the 4E-5E era where SPD was figured off DEX, so there's less impetus to do so in 6E, but still, it would be a concern of mine.

[HeroGM]

In something like d20 it works, most of the time. Personally I give everyone an amount of time to do their action. The only person who should be going "um..I'm...um..." is the first person in combat order. While everyone else is going you need to be looking at your #s, checking your powers/spells, etc. If you don't have an idea when I get to you it's a held action, next person. If you still have no idea, you've lost it.

 

Mean? Possibly - why should I allow players to waste mine and the other players time with it.

 

Me: "Ok Keith, you're first to act. Do you want a min to consider options? Or would you like to hold and come back?"

K: "I'll use my Pulsor blast against the first agent to the left"  ( so we figure range mod, attack roll, dmg, knock back...a good 5-15min depending (??))

Me: Ok David, what are you doing?😧

D : "Um...wait..uh..let me check something...um, ok I'll do a move through and..." (10 min of him checking what a move thru does...)....

 

And yeah, nor everyone knows the rules, starting players, etc etc...I can be lenient. You add all those "um..uh (book check)..well I think I can still cast Fireball..no wait..." and it kills the flow as well as time.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I had to start being kind of harsh and hardcore on actions because some players are either not paying attention, or just not great at tactical decision making, or just trying to find the perfect move (or all three).  So you get to them and they're working out the perfect power in their power pool with a calculator or looking up from their phone going "whu???" or stammering and uncertain.  Unfortunately a guy who could not make fast decisions was a speedster in one game, which was a disaster,  Oddly, he was the smartest man in almost any room he entered, literallly a nuclear physicist with multiple degrees.

 

So I came up with a few rules.  You should have your powers ready in your pool before the game starts, unless you can whip out something super fast and easy on the fly consistently.  If you take longer than is comfortable to wait, then you hold and we move on.  No devices at the table, period (except me using a combat program on my laptop).  Stuff like that.

[Asperion]

I believe that all players should declare their actions before anyone (including npcs) can make any actions. Once someone has declared their action,  it cannot be changed even if a later character declares something that will invalidate their action, they didn't know what the other was going to do and must respond in some practical manner in later phases or turns. After everyone has declared their action,  then they get to roll all appropriate dice involved and settle any problems that arise from those actions. 

[Tech]

I don't have anyone declare their action until their phase and Dex. Until then, the character is observing things in motion to decide the best course of action. This provides flexibility and isn't rigid. It's worked for decades for the campaign I'm in.

 

Since we don't need to use laptops/cels/etc., I want players to keep their items off - it just distracts everyone else. We do use a HD kindle to show off picture of enemies/npcs though.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Smart speedsters tend to delay a lot, to see what is going on and instantly react to it.  Just a pro tip.  Usually you have so many phases in a turn you can afford to ditch one without causing you any problem.