Selective Invis...

[Duke Bushido]

9 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

 

I use the full rule book and on page 138 of the second book it lists "+1d6 Exhibiting a Power or superior technology" on PRE Attack modifier table.

 

 

What he said.

 

This is on every edirion since the first.  Except CC, apparently.  And I dont know about Champions Now: I have yet to find the time to finish reading it.

 

Violent action adds dice; sisplay of power adds dice; soliloquies add dice; reputations add dice.  (Though that last one may have changed in more recent editions.  Display of power, however, has not).

 

Now to be honest, I have always taken that to mean displaying power in a way that is either intimidating (to control bad guys) or reassuring / confidence inspiring (to inspire good guys.  You can ignore that one though, as a couple of years ago I figured  out that I am the only person here who uses presence attacks in a positive, "stop panicking; I can keep you safe" kind of way, so.....    Anyway...

 

I always felt it to mean displaying a power that clearly backs up your intent or message:  crushing something more dursble than the opponent you are facing; darting behind him with your superspeed even as he turns to flee;  using your flame blast to melt a seagulls when your opponent spreads his wings to fly away.

 

On the inspirational side, perhaps ripping up a tree and using it to sluice away part of a landslide or walking bravely into the flamethrower's blast to demonstrate the cone of safety behind you, or maybe melting a seagull when the ice ceeam stand wants to open up.

 

That sort of thing.

 

 

 

[steriaca]

It's in CC. It just took me a a bit to find it. Guess I shouldn't of read a write at the same time.

 

Can anyone think of another advantage besides pluses for PRE Attacks? What advantage would basically adding a fringe to Invisibility (which the power itself already has)?

[Duke Bushido]

That takes us pretty much to the point, right there:

 

Folks are wracking their brains trying to force an advantage to this.  I cant think of any better proof that there is no points-added advantage here _at all_.

 

No one can see a downside, either!  It is selective: the character is not _forced_ to remain semi-visible.  So there is no disadvantage.

 

I know that from 5e back, there is no verbiage in the rules that forbids a character from being able to do this anyway, any more than there is a rule forcing him to use all-or-nothing for his movement or laser blast or anything else (except for those editions in which Desolidification is not a movement power.  The 40-pt desolid from those editions is pretty much all or nothing).

 

So all that remains is to check 6e (assuming that is what you are using) to see if it's long list of mandates, verbottens, and "advantage X must work this way with this power, period" stuff forbids it.

 

Short of that, I see no reason for forcing an additional cost or effectiveness penalty on rhis guy just because he thought of it first.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think its more advantageous to be able to manifest parts of your body at will than not being able to, but I'm not sure its worth an actual Advantage.

[unclevlad]

18 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think its more advantageous to be able to manifest parts of your body at will than not being able to, but I'm not sure its worth an actual Advantage.

 

Mechanically, no, an advantage generally doesn't make sense.  IF there's something to be gained here, it's almost certainly sight-related only.  Sound?  Doesn't feel like it, and Ventriloquism is a simple, sensible solution.  Taste, touch, smell?  I can't see it.  So if I want invis to hearing and sight...plausible...an advantage is increasing the cost of the invis to hearing, and that's not preferable.

 

It's not a fringe.  Not at all.  It's clearly obvious *when I want it to be.*  No fringe is an adder;  this actually kinda fits into the same mold, so an adder (which can also be turned off and on at will) fits structurally and thematically.  People are stuck on 5 points.  Why?  If 5 feels too high...how about 3?  Invisible to normal touch is 3 points;  there's nothing sacred about 5 point adders.  And...yeah, selectively making oneself partly visible, partly not...that *feels* like it should be more work, as in, potentially increase the END required.  So from that standpoint, an adder works.  It's not that crucial to me, so I think a Power Skill implementation also works.  (This is explicit, BTW, in APG.)

 

Creating a distraction is one valid use.  It's not about fear, it's not about awe;  it's about drawing attention, or possibly creating confusion.  So going the PRE route is poor;  maybe the end result is the same, but the route to it is totally wrong.  In multiple ways.  Maybe your teammates can't see you...so you make one part visible, like a hand to give hand signals.  Or just so they know where you are.  One could readily argue that just your hand would have a nice size-based PER penalty for anyone *else* not expecting it.

 

As I said:  obvious uses certainly aren't a dime a dozen, but outside actual combat?  It has too much potential.  It should cost *a little* something.

[steriaca]

PRE Attacks are not always "FEAR ME", you know. It can also be "LOOK AT ME", or "CONSIDER SURENDERING BECAUSE THIS ACTION IS WRONG" (the point for Lady Heart's  increase in +PRE, attack only), or things like that.

 

Stop thinking it is only for fear related things.

[LoneWolf]

Some things do not need to be paid for.  I can create a distraction by firing my gun.  Does that mean I need an advantage or an adder on my RKA? I could also create a distraction by knocking something over while remaining completely invisible.

 

Everything that this allows you to do is covered by roleplaying or creative use of the power.  This falls under the heading of special effect.  The book states that a powers special effect will often allow some leeway as to what your character can do.  If the special effect of your invisibility allows you to do this, it should not cost anything.  If the special effect of your invisibility does not allow you to do this, you should not be able to do this no matter how many points you spend.

[steriaca]

The problem is with the new batch of kids coming in from other games and use for strict "what my character can do" lists. While it is true that "you get what you pay for" in Hero, there is also some "freebies" involved also.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I can see this as an adder, 5 points sounds okay to me as well, with some qualifications.

 

The drawback to adders, of course, is that they are power-indifferent. they don't get more expensive as the power build does.  In a relative sense, the more active points a power has, the less an adder costs.  Thus, adders can be thought of as a fixed-cost advantage: an advantage that should not get more expensive as the power does.  This would be an advantage that has some benefit, but one that does not actually increase with the active cost of the power.

 

This kind of construct wouldn't work as ventriloquism, since you're not casting your voice, you're just able to talk even while being invisible to sound, without shutting the power completely down.  Again, is that an advantage?  Yeah, but not a very significant one.  Is the advantage one that should get higher as the power costs more?  Well adding no fringe and 0 END cost to this doesn't actually make being able to talk without shutting off the power's value, so no.

 

An adder seems to work here.

[SCUBA Hero]

Also, as noted above, an Adder doesn't have to be used at all times while an Advantage does (unless bought as a Naked Advantage).

[Duke Bushido]

Okay-  finally checked the book, but I got home,too late and too tired to want to post.

 

There is absolutely nothing in the verbiage that prevents invisibility from working in this way.

 

For those arguing the "advantage" of creating a distraction, you can do that with any power- even Invisibility the way you see it working as all-or-nothing:  a person was just standing right there!  I swear it!   Hey!  Where did _that_ guy come from?!

 

A completely non-powered grandma can yell "over here, you jerk!"

 

For those arguing that it should cost _something_ because it _might_ be an advantage, I suggest we put those same extra adders on every single construct, or charge that same advantage multiplier, because under the right set of obscure or Scooby Doo-like circumstances, _anything_  "could be" possibly maybe be kind of potentially advantageous, I bet.

 

 

Now I am going to do something I haven't done in years, and delve into a bit of faceatious sarcasm (great!  "Faceatious"  autocorrect understands, but "only" is some crazy moon language....    )

 

I provide this disclaimer because it is not my intention to insult anyone; I just want people to have a clear picture of this discussion from the outside-looking-in perspective.  That, and having cleansed sarcasm from my social tools, I am probably not very good at any more.  You have all been warned! 

 

Let's go!

 

Further, do you charge your fire guy extra because his special effect allows him to light a cigarette or briefly  warm a chilly room?  I don't know-  from what I am reading here, some of you probably do.  Just remember to charge the bow-and-arrow guy for the advantage of never accidentally starting a fire, because-  under the right circumstances, that is one-hundred percent advantageous (I mean, you will never accidentally start a fire!)  and so he should pay something for it because eventually, he just might possibly one day conceivably end up in a raft, fighting opponents while afloat on a lake of kerosene.  When that happens, you will completely see why he should have paid for that assurance.

 

All the flying characters should have to buy life support, too.  It is just not feasible that they flew at five hubdred miles an hour at 20,000 feet and didn't asphyxiate or freeze to death.

 

Everyone should pay extra for everything because everything has a potential minor advantage in the right circumstances.  It is almost like they all have unique superpowers, just a little different from everyone else's, and for that, they should have to pay extra.  Clearly, it is time to start evaluating and charging for the special effects themselves-  they are so potentially highly advantageous, after all, maybe.  Maybe in 7e we will see the value in starting characters being built on one thousand points, because of the valuable clean footprints left in the carpet by the Son of Angels as he crosses the room.  Major Transform at the _very_ least, and he should _pay_.

 

 

Okay.  That's done.

 

My own opinion is that you need to talk to your GM.  If you are the GM, then you need to decide how big a jerk you want to be about this.  As a GM, I cant imagine even having had this discussion, to be honest, beyond "can I do this?"  And "sure.  It is your character; you get to pick the special effects."

 

 

 

[steriaca]

I tend to think of Invisibility as a "all or nothing" power. Either your viable to a certain sense or your not. But I would allow the character to decide to be partly visible if the special effect calls for it. It all depends on how the power is defined. 

 

A big example is Ranma Saotome's Invisibility technique. He is not 'really' invisible, just using his ki to dampen his presence. People can still see him, and hear him, and smell him, but they don't acknowledge him. This is an all or nothing thing, and is actually voided when he attacks.

[steriaca]

Konotsi (sp!) (the male transgender ninja waitress for Ukyou), and Sasuki (the middle aged ninja servant to the Kuno clan) from Ranma 1/2, who both have a high enough Stealth skill to make them practically invisible, in this page from the Sailor Ranko fan comic. Later on, Ranma and Akane use Ranma's Invisibility technique by putting a bucket over their heads. Again "invisibility without being truly unseeable".

[Duke Bushido]

My first thought when I entered this thread was the short-lived and very enjoyable "Invisible Man" that Sci Fi channel- back when it gave a crap- used as a lead-in to Farscape.

 

His powers worked because an artificial gland produce a chemical that he could willfully secrete through his integumentary pores.  As it was pouring over him, the effect was streaks of invisibility that got more intense and more spread (he was literally sweating invisibility juice), and in a formulaic pattern reminiscent of the Turbo Boost button in Knight Rider, twice per episode we got to watch as he sweated himself to invisibility.  And why not?  If you have an actor who can sweat green screen, Baby, you _use_ that!  You use it _hard_!   

 

 

Now I understood immediatetly that this is _not_ what the original question was,a but it was a nice example of not being "all at once invisible," and I would bet all your dollars that were this presented as a character, not a single person here saying that OP can't just do this thing he wants to do would not only fail to bat an eye, but would suggest to the Player that his chosen SFX could let him shave points by taking the power limitation "extra time" or "delayed effect."

 

 

[steriaca]

Other Sailor Ranko Invisabity fun. First pic: Ranma and Akane use Ranma's Invisibility technique. Notice that Jadeite can see through the Invisibility technique, but only with the help of CCTV.

 

Second pic, Sasuki and the other ninja gets caught. Forcently for them they are technically on the Sailor Senshi side.

 

Or vica versa. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Another perspective on this idea is to shift the senses its affecting.

 

Invisibility vs sound: now i'm completely inaudible!  Except I can talk and be heard whenever I want.

 

Now, is that an advantage to be heard when you wish, or a limitation to not be able to be heard when you wish without entirely shutting off Invisibility?

[unclevlad]

The cases aren't entirely similar, but it's also true that this is *predominately* a sight-only issue.  

 

And hey...one can argue that, no, invisible to sound means, you *can't* be heard when you try to speak.  That you have to turn it off.  Nor is it the same in many cases:

 

a)  stop moving, turn off hearing Invis

b)  speak

c)  turn hearing invis back on

 

Technically not legal, I believe;  you can't change a power's state twice in a single phase.  But one that would likely be allowed...if nothing else, as a matter of convenience.  We WANT hearing invis to work that way, so...it does.  Sight invis, OTOH, is mostly all or nothing, in standard fantasy and in comics.  

 

I think everyone agrees that it's not a game breaker, no matter what.  Free, or low cost at most.  That choice comes down to some fundamental rules interpretation/evaluation differences where we can, and should now, just agree to disagree.

[Duke Bushido]

Personally, I dont believe it is.

 

rPD 30 doesn't mean you can't feel it when your teammate pokes you on the shoulder, either.

 

 

[Grailknight]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Another perspective on this idea is to shift the senses its affecting.

 

Invisibility vs sound: now i'm completely inaudible!  Except I can talk and be heard whenever I want.

 

Now, is that an advantage to be heard when you wish, or a limitation to not be able to be heard when you wish without entirely shutting off Invisibility?

 

Stealth costs Points, being Mute is a Limitation.

 

You can call out to people when you sneak up to them quietly, just like that invisible to sight person can start twirling a flag to attract notice. This is one of those cases where we can use RL examples. 

[unclevlad]

3 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

Stealth costs Points, being Mute is a Limitation.

 

You can call out to people when you sneak up to them quietly, just like that invisible to sight person can start twirling a flag to attract notice. This is one of those cases where we can use RL examples. 

 

Stealth isn't invisible.  One is a skill, the other is a power.  The power can have implications the skill doesn't.  You can also drop the invis to hearing once you close, then call out.  Nope.  Doesn't hold up.

 

You can't use RL examples because invisibility does not exist in the real world.  You can only argue by analogy...and to a degree, by normal practice.  But that doesn't answer the question from a RAW perspective;  it goes to what you would expect and allow.  By RAW, it is sensible to assert that Invis to hearing renders you mute for the duration...that sound simply does not escape from you.  And yeah, I can accept the other way just as well, on the basis of running a smoother game rather than nitpicking.

 

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, unclevlad said:

You can't use RL examples because invisibility does not exist in the real world.  You can only argue by analogy...and to a degree, by normal practice.  But that doesn't answer the question from a RAW perspective;  it goes to what you would expect and allow.  By RAW, it is sensible to assert that Invis to hearing renders you mute for the duration...that sound simply does not escape from you.  And yeah, I can accept the other way just as well, on the basis of running a smoother game rather than nitpicking.

 

Air is invisible but when it moves other objects around it becomes perceptible that the air itself is moving so there's a real-life example.

 

Invisibility does not affect other powers - your Thunderbolt still flashes and crackles when you are Invisible to Sight and Hearing.  If we consider Voice a Power, why should it not be treated the same?  Really, it's just a form of Images to Hearing.

[LoneWolf]

Invisibility vs sound is not being unable to be speak.  It is not making a sound when you move, you also cannot be spotted by sonar, and it also blocks any special senses based on hearing.  So, if a character has detect lies with the special effect of hearing your heartbeat that also does not function.  It can cover up the sound of you speaking, but that is really the least important thing it does. 

 

I don’t see a problem letting someone with invisibility to sound with the right special effect speak and be heard if they want to.  Like most things in the Hero System it is going to come down to special effect.  If your special effect is a field that absorbs all sound that completely surrounds you than you probably cannot speak while invisible.  If your invisibility to sound is the ability to cloud your opponents mind like the Shadow I don’t see why you would not be able to speak while invisible. 

[unclevlad]

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Invisibility vs sound is not being unable to be speak.  It is not making a sound when you move,

 

Where is that stated?  When you make no sound, why can sound from your mouth pass?  It's NOT restricted to sound when you move;  your breathing, your heartbeat are inaudible.  If your breathing can't be heard, why should another expulsion of breath be audible?

 

Because in general we don't want it to work that way.  Every argument is IMO reflecting a bias that invisibility to sound silencing you, is a PITA and we don't want to do it.  Which is fine...but recognize it IS a bias towards that specific interpretation of the power.

 

Nope.  Far as I'm concerned, this argument is not worth pursuing any more.  This horse got turned into dog food.

 

 

[dougmacd]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

Where is that stated?  When you make no sound, why can sound from your mouth pass?  It's NOT restricted to sound when you move;  your breathing, your heartbeat are inaudible.  If your breathing can't be heard, why should another expulsion of breath be audible?

 

I had to dig around a bit, but APG2 p29 states: Activating Invisiblity (Mental Group) does not “sever” or deactivate a Mind Link or voluntary mental contact via Telepathy, any more than being Invisible to the Hearing Group prevents a character from talking.

 

 

Doug

(For those who are still pursuing the argument)

[unclevlad]

Ah.  Well, I'm glad you found it.  It does make clear, tho, that in core...the question is legit.