Vertigo Power from the 90's

[Majik]

Hello all, old timer from early 90's just getting back into the game again. I was looking at an old character sheet and had a power called "Vertigo" on it. I believe it may have come from one of the old Hero System fanzines we had back then. 

Still trying to figure out my notes, but after 20+ years, not a lot to go on. If any old timers still around, here is what I have on the power, but sadly no specifics.

 

Vertigo

1X -1 DCV - 1OCV

2X -3 DCV -3 OCV

3X No Ranged Attacks Can Be Made, All Actions Require a Dex Roll -5 DCV -5 OCV

4X On Floor Immobile Vomiting 0 OCV 0 DCV

 

Does anyone out there remember this power? It's been a looong time. Just trying to figure out how the power worked back then. Seems to be an if I rolled over X amount then the effect would happen.

 

[aylwin13]

If I had a question like this I would PM Lord Laiden. He is our resident lore expert. If it's in a HERO book, then the odds are pretty good that he'll remember it.

[Grailknight]

I sort of remember it but I don't have the reference material. It looks to be a Mental Power and may be one of the early examples of a Mental Power based on CON. I'd have no issue with allowing it as you presented.

[LoneWolf]

From the looks of it, it was some variant of Mental Illusions.  Under the current rules it would be based on EGO, EGO +10, EGO +20 and EGO +30 instead of 1x, 2x, 3x, 4x.  Your GM may decide to alter the specific penalties, but those seem to be in keeping with the mental illusion levels.  At EGO +30 the character no longer interacts with the environment is about right for being 0 OCV and DCV.   

[Duke Bushido]

I can'tnt say that I have ever seen it, but if you are looking for any sort of feedback:

 

If it is an officially-endorsed build, it is going to be from before 4e.

 

I say that because of your 1x, 2x, 3x notation.

 

This was the mechanic for a number of mental or psyche-targeting powers: you rolled youe dice of effect then divided by (target characteristic+ appropriate defense) to determine hiw many levels of effect the attacker had achieved;  that is to say, one times the target number, two times the target number, etc.

 

That changed in 4e.  From 4e and onward, the dice of effect were rolled, then (target characteristic + approoriate defenses) were subtracted.   The results depended on how many points over the (characteristic + defenses).   Then compare to a chart that says target number or greater then this result; target number plus 20 points then this result; target number plus 50 points-

 

Etc.

 

 

I play 2e, though I dabbled,in 4e back in the 90s, and in my own experience, most of us subtracted the target number (target characterisitc plus relevant defenses) then divided by whatever the step number was on the chart (usually a 10 or a 20, but I cant remember which) and rounded down to get a whole number, then went to that line on the chart.  Same results, and for some reason was easier than subtracting 20 over and over until we talied up two or four or whatever.

 

 

Anyway, had this been an _official endorsed_ build, it would have had to have come from any of the "how much more than the target characteristic did you roll" powers (which are pretty much, as I called them, the psyche-affecting powers-- essentially the traditionally "mental powers" plus Presence Attack- because those were the only powers featuring those charts, and those were the only powers where varying degrees of "damage" meant very different results: there is quite a chasm between the 1x and 3x results on your chart, for example.  With all other powers, the greater the results, the more of the exavr same effect (usually damage) was applied to the target.

 

Going with what you have presented here, I think it was created for 3rd edition or anythng before that, as the results are keyed to a multiple.

 

I also strongly suspect that it is a home-brew creation (which saw life in many third party gaming magazines; I don't think Adventurers a club published anything that wasnt officially endorsed, even if it waant official (the Swarm rulws were made official for years, but they were officially endorsed, for example.

 

I do not think this Vertigo was officially endorsed simply because there is no 4x entry.

 

Even after the change from "multiples" to "success levels," there have always been _4_ levels for these charts.  Not sure why, but I suspect that if this had been an AC article, they would have either requested the submitter rework it into dour levels, or would have done so themselves with an "inspired by" note in the article.

 

If it was in a magazine, then it was truly a third party publucation such as Dragon or Different Worlds or White Dwarf (I can tell you that it wasnt actually in White Dwarf, if that helps) or one of the scores of fanzines and lower-profile gaming magazines of the day.

 

 

Also, --and I like to think most importantly--  consider this to be extremely stolen. 

 

I want to compare it to my own build for vertigo; the similarities are intriguing. 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

I am pretty sure I recall a Vertigo power - it would have been in a magazine, maybe a Dragon article that had a few optional powers.  I don't think it was Adventurers Club but it might have been.

[DShomshak]

I think I saw it in DRAGON, decades ago. As Duke says, this would have been for 2nd or 3rd edition, and likely unofficial. I'll check my old issues and see if I can find it.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Beast]

20 hours ago, Majik said:

Hello all, old timer from early 90's just getting back into the game again. I was looking at an old character sheet and had a power called "Vertigo" on it. I believe it may have come from one of the old Hero System fanzines we had back then. 

Still trying to figure out my notes, but after 20+ years, not a lot to go on. If any old timers still around, here is what I have on the power, but sadly no specifics.

 

Vertigo

1X -1 DCV - 1OCV

2X -3 DCV -3 OCV

3X No Ranged Attacks Can Be Made, All Actions Require a Dex Roll -5 DCV -5 OCV

4X On Floor Immobile Vomiting 0 OCV 0 DCV

 

Does anyone out there remember this power? It's been a looong time. Just trying to figure out how the power worked back then. Seems to be an if I rolled over X amount then the effect would happen.

 

looks like a mental illusion to me
I did this using Change Enviroment
the Characteristic roll is vs Dex
if the target fails they are on the ground and having problems getting up
Prone they are 1/2 DCV and let the ranged deal with them(haymakers, called shots, parking buses on them, etc...)
Vertigo scream(vs dex or fall):  Change Environment (-7 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll), Area Of Effect (32m Cone; +3/4) (37 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (not vs hear flash; -1/4)

[BigJackBrass]

It's in Dragon number 100, August 1985, in an article called CHAMPIONS™  Plus! New powers for CHAMPIONS™  heroes by Steven Maurer:

 

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks, BJB!

 

I notice that there _are_, in fact, four levels of effect.   

 

I should have thought of issue 100. If I am not mistaken, that was onw of only two "powers for Champions" articlws Dragon ever published.

 

(One of them- the other one, I think-- is where I sourced Extra Life.  Still use it today.  of course, it is the same article that had the "Bouncing" power.... Gad...  An intwresting idea from a guy who apparently hadn't realized that Leaping can already work that way.....)

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

It was amazing how the older Dragon operated as an industry magazine, not just a TSR house organ, when TSR owned and ran it.  Not quite OGL, but definitely an industry, rather than a company, publication.

[BigJackBrass]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

I should have thought of issue 100. If I am not mistaken, that was onw of only two "powers for Champions" articlws Dragon ever published.

I could claim an encyclopaedic knowledge of Champions material across popular publications of yesteryear… but in fact I looked it up in this index. 😁

[DShomshak]

Big Jack Brass beat me to it! But here's a link to the issue and article, if anyone cares.

 

https://archive.org/details/DragonMagazine260_201801/DragonMagazine100/page/n75/mode/2up

 

The other article was in issue 117:

https://archive.org/details/DragonMagazine260_201801/DragonMagazine117/page/n53/mode/2up

 

DRAGON also published the "One in a Million" article by Roger E. Moore, about superbeing populations worldwide, which has guided my setting design ever since. A useful reminder to American Champions GMs about how many people *do not live in the USA.* But they can have heroes and villains too!

 

Dean Shomshak

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

It was amazing how the older Dragon operated as an industry magazine, not just a TSR house organ, when TSR owned and ran it.  Not quite OGL, but definitely an industry, rather than a company, publication.

 

 

Dungeon was TSR"s DnD-dedicated publication.  Dragon waa prompted by the amiunt of advertising revenue that Dungeon was pulling in, and the fact that there were more requests for ads than one magazine could support.

 

It was serendipitous in the long run, as TSR branched into other genres, they had a ready-made platform to print support for those, too.  It wasnr until they bought the flounderinf wargaming magazine Ares that they started to over-extend themselves, and Ares was soon folded into a sci-go and supers section within Dragon.

 

Once the published Star Frontiers, James Bond, and Marvel Super Heroes, though, Dragon became a lot less useful to those of us who were just non-plussed with TSR's products.  😕

 

There were still a few things here and there, now and again, for non-TSR games, but if the article could be replaced by two ads, it was.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Dragon grew out of a short-lived publication (The Strategic Review?).  Dungeon came along much later, and only published adventures.  I don't know if Dungeon ever published non-D&D adventures, much less non-TSR game adventures. 

 

Dragon did gradually reduce articles not related to TSR games - they sometimes had sets of articles on multiple games in a genre (there was a Supers one with Champions, V&V and a couple of other games each providing a very powerful female Super). Not surprising either as a house publication or as D&D was the big RPG seller.

 

[Sketchpad]

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Dragon grew out of a short-lived publication (The Strategic Review?).  Dungeon came along much later, and only published adventures.  I don't know if Dungeon ever published non-D&D adventures, much less non-TSR game adventures. 

 

Dragon did gradually reduce articles not related to TSR games - they sometimes had sets of articles on multiple games in a genre (there was a Supers one with Champions, V&V and a couple of other games each providing a very powerful female Super). Not surprising either as a house publication or as D&D was the big RPG seller.

 

I know Dungeon had done a few Marvel Superheroes modules. I believe one was a con adventure. And maybe a Traveller one... though I'm not 100% on that last one.

 

I think the superheroine in question was a character called Quantum. Maybe in Dragon #111?

[steriaca]

Well...

 

How do we adapt this power for 6ed without basically building an entire new power?

[Grailknight]

That's simple. It converts from the 1x,2x,3x and 4x of pre-4th edition Mental Powers to the current +0,+10,+20,+30 structure of Mental Powers directly.

[steriaca]

7 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

That's simple. It converts from the 1x,2x,3x and 4x of pre-4th edition Mental Powers to the current +0,+10,+20,+30 structure of Mental Powers directly.

But...how to simulate it in modern Hero System. Should it be Mind Control Based On CON effect (one command: Feel Vertigo)?

[Grailknight]

1 minute ago, steriaca said:

But...how to simulate it in modern Hero System. Should it be Mind Control Based On CON effect (one command: Feel Vertigo)?

 

Why couldn't it just be a specific Mental Power and you can make it Based on CON as it suits you. The original had it as a variant of Mental Illusion but it's distinct enough to be a standalone Power.

[steriaca]

22 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

Why couldn't it just be a specific Mental Power and you can make it Based on CON as it suits you. The original had it as a variant of Mental Illusion but it's distinct enough to be a standalone Power.

I believe one of the core beliefs in the Hero System is no duplication of effects. Which is why we have Resistance Protection as opposed to 4ed Armor and Force Field as separate powers.

 

But again, "Your Mileage May Vary".

[Grailknight]

27 minutes ago, steriaca said:

I believe one of the core beliefs in the Hero System is no duplication of effects. Which is why we have Resistance Protection as opposed to 4ed Armor and Force Field as separate powers.

 

But again, "Your Mileage May Vary".

 

No, the core rule is if "There are two ways to do an effect, then the most expensive is the correct method." The two options are equal in this case so both can be valid.

[Beast]

1 hour ago, steriaca said:

But...how to simulate it in modern Hero System. Should it be Mind Control Based On CON effect (one command: Feel Vertigo)?

you use Mental Illusion
you could have it go against Con, but on average Con is higher than Ego on most characters
for me the mind is the final stop for how the body reacts

[steriaca]

1 minute ago, Beast said:

you use Mental Illusion
you could have it go against Con, but on average Con is higher than Ego on most characters
for me the mind is the final stop for how the body reacts

Understandable...

[Beast]

15 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

No, the core rule is if "There are two ways to do an effect, then the most expensive is the correct method." The two options are equal in this case so both can be valid.

In this case you have Mental Illusion or a Change Enviroment