Who's Tougher, Champions Characters or Fantasy Hero Characters

[Gauntlet]

Thought it might be an interesting discussion about Champions Characters verse Fantasy Hero Characters. This of course assumes that they are at a similar point level. So would normally be a new Champions Character verse an experienced Fantasy Hero Character.

 

And Hero Games version doesn't really matter.

[Asperion]

This is a difficult situation since it brings up individual differences between characters.  But on the whole,  I believe that Champions characters tend to work with raw power,  no matter what.  However,  fantasy characters will often be more about their coordination and teamwork getting the better of the problem.  In my experience,  3 ten-point attacks are better than one 30-point attack since the three have more options available. This doesn't make the fantasy better,  or Champions better. The entire final result is  - they will come out equal with no clear winner. 

[Gauntlet]

One advantage I definitely know of for FH characters is equipment. FH characters do not have to pay for it while Champions characters do.

[Lord Liaden]

The two genres usually have different ground rules. There are many mechanical assumptions about what rules and standards apply to one, that don't apply to the other. To compare the characters fairly, you have to go beyond point totals and make the playing field level in what they're allowed to spend Character Points on, what the costs will be, what are the Active Point and Damage Class caps, what optional rules are being used, and so on.

[Duke Bushido]

Unless Legolas has kryptonite arrows, I know where my bet lies.

 

[Gauntlet]

Legolas could have magic arrows which would ignore Superman's defenses just as easily as kryptonite.

[Lord Liaden]

All but the earliest versions of Superman would be built on far more Character Points than any version of Legolas.

[LoneWolf]

I have to agree with LL on this.  It really depends on what optional rules are being used.  Most Champions character will be at a disadvantage if hit location and critical hit are being used, especially in 6th edition.  On the other hand the Fantasy Hero warrior is going be nerfed if the stun multiple from 6th edition champions is used.   The slow easy to hit Champions brick hit with a critical hit to the head from 4d6 killing attack is not going to do well.   Most Champions characters are not going to be able to take 120 STUN and 24 BODY.  To make matters worse they take double any BODY that gets through their defenses.   

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its odd to me that this is even a question.  A 400 point Fantasy hero character is like Conan x Elric cubed in power, that's an insanely powerful character in their setting.  They would stride their world like a god casually slapping dragons and titans aside like they were tissue paper.  That's a character with like 12 OCV and magical armor that lets them be hit by a falling mountain and walk away.

 

Why?  because the 400 point fantasy hero character has 400 point equivalent treasures and equipment they have picked up along the way.  Treasures they didn't pay points for.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Gauntlet]

I will have to say that while Champions characters often have more raw firepower, FH characters have to have a lot more options on what can utilize and must be able to last much longer in a fight. I rarely see fights in a Champions game that last even more than a turn (maybe two turns), but I have seen a number in FH that last over 5 turns or even longer.

[megaplayboy]

Generally I would expect FH characters built on similar net points to be more skilled and well-rounded, but having less powerful(though possibly more accurate) attacks and weaker overall defenses(though possibly hard to hit).  

[GDShore]

Ultimately, Fantasy Hero characters are the more powerful than are Champions. Take the Legolas - Superman example, Superman is without argument more powerful than Legolas, unless Legolas has a magic bow and arrows or some other magic weapon. The other big issue is that FH is not restricted to being lawful stupid. FH can KILL, Champions cannot, they must be noble, honourable, upright and if by happenstance someone should die, suffer an angst ridden existence for a loooong time to come.

     A point, when we setting up our house rules for campaigns, we decided from the start that all goodies had to be paid for. Players, in particular the fighter classes would bank a portion of their construction points to pay for that magic sword, shield, helm or other magic goodie that they might stumble upon. This was a group decision from the very start and it worked very well in the games I ran and those I played in. 

[Gauntlet]

28 minutes ago, GDShore said:

 A point, when we setting up our house rules for campaigns, we decided from the start that all goodies had to be paid for. Players, in particular the fighter classes would bank a portion of their construction points to pay for that magic sword, shield, helm or other magic goodie that they might stumble upon. This was a group decision from the very start and it worked very well in the games I ran and those I played in. 

 

How would you do potions and things that can only be used a few times or even just once? Plus, if the fighter's magic sword is broken or lost, does he just lose the points or can he just get it back?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Ultimately, Fantasy Hero characters are the more powerful than are Champions. Take the Legolas - Superman example, Superman is without argument more powerful than Legolas

 

The problem here is that the challenge specifies same point value.  Superman is like 1200 points and Legolas, maybe 200?  Even them out and Legolas has gotten some immense upgrades... and as I noted above, immensely powerful artifacts and magical items to match. because those things are free in a fantasy setting.

[GDShore]

In my universe I have Alchemists, and Artificers to create potions and magic items. AS an alchemist the player can create the potions with a massive limitation ie. a heal potion which cost 5 real points to create (1) will produce 50 for the alchemist, the artificer can create magic items either on speculation or on commission. ( on commission a player transfers saved points to the artificer who uses them to create item.) Neither the alchemist or artificer can cast magic spells. 

     Your right Mr. Taylor, If you build a Legolas on 1200 points then "he would have an amulet that would analyze a target and find it's Achilles heel, and another that would toss Superman to a world with a RED SUN. No more Superman."

[Gauntlet]

4 minutes ago, GDShore said:

In my universe I have Alchemists, and Artificers to create potions and magic items. AS an alchemist the player can create the potions with a massive limitation ie. a heal potion which cost 5 real points to create (1) will produce 50 for the alchemist, the artificer can create magic items either on speculation or on commission. ( on commission a player transfers saved points to the artificer who uses them to create item.) Neither the alchemist or artificer can cast magic spells. 

 

I can see potions being able to be easily purchased by their creator as they can just be done as charges usable by others, but I am still not sure how you would do a magic item like a magic sword. If a fighter gets a magic sword, even just a minor one at +2 OCV it would cost him a fair amount of points. If that sword is lost, does he/she just lose the points or get them back to purchase something else?

[Ninja-Bear]

Well, I have some Champions characters without any Resistant Defenses so Fantasy would be stronger in that sense. 

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, GDShore said:

Ultimately, Fantasy Hero characters are the more powerful than are Champions. Take the Legolas - Superman example, Superman is without argument more powerful than Legolas, unless Legolas has a magic bow and arrows or some other magic weapon. The other big issue is that FH is not restricted to being lawful stupid. FH can KILL, Champions cannot, they must be noble, honourable, upright and if by happenstance someone should die, suffer an angst ridden existence for a loooong time to come.

   

 

With respect, you're treating very specific conditions as though they were universal. What if you switch Superman in your scenario with Captain Marvel/Shazam? Strong and tough as Superman, no vulnerability to magic, in fact he is magic. How about Captain Atom? Or the Hulk? Or Vision, either max-density or intangible? Or for that matter, Captain America with his shield?

 

Superman doesn't kill, ever. Neither does Batman. Captain America, or Captain Atom, or Green Lantern John Stewart, were soldiers. They'll kill if they have to, and have. And do I really need to explain Wolverine, or the Punisher, or John Constantine? Code Against Killing is not automatic for every superhero, or every Champion.

 

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

The problem here is that the challenge specifies same point value.  Superman is like 1200 points and Legolas, maybe 200?  Even them out and Legolas has gotten some immense upgrades... and as I noted above, immensely powerful artifacts and magical items to match. because those things are free in a fantasy setting.

 

Without comparable Character Point totals, comparable Active Point and Damage Class caps, and using the same HERO rule options, a meaningful comparison isn't possible.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Well, I have some Champions characters without any Resistant Defenses so Fantasy would be stronger in that sense. 

 

Who says all Fantasy characters have to have Resistant Defenses? What armor did Gandalf wear? Or most of the protagonists in Dungeons and Dragons: Honor Among Thieves?  Or anyone in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon?

[Grailknight]

4 hours ago, GDShore said:

Ultimately, Fantasy Hero characters are the more powerful than are Champions. Take the Legolas - Superman example, Superman is without argument more powerful than Legolas, unless Legolas has a magic bow and arrows or some other magic weapon. The other big issue is that FH is not restricted to being lawful stupid. FH can KILL, Champions cannot, they must be noble, honourable, upright and if by happenstance someone should die, suffer an angst ridden existence for a loooong time to come.

     A point, when we setting up our house rules for campaigns, we decided from the start that all goodies had to be paid for. Players, in particular the fighter classes would bank a portion of their construction points to pay for that magic sword, shield, helm or other magic goodie that they might stumble upon. This was a group decision from the very start and it worked very well in the games I ran and those I played in. 

 

That may be true of Superman being held back by the writers to make a story interesting but Superman in the hands of a PC is an entirely different animal. 

 

Unless you can match that speed and toughness your best-case scenario is that you wake up in jail. He patrols from 10,000 feet up as he can see and hear everything below just fine, approaches at faster than the speed of sound and then hits you with a Move-By using his 50+ inches of base flying and his 100+ STR with Noncombat surprise. When he really needs to go all-out, the writers remember that he is a Flash level speedster. He only gets hit with missile weapons when he doesn't take the trouble to use his full powers.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Typically Superman bounces attacks though, so if Legolas has a magical attack ready and Supes is not he might take a very unfortunate shot to the vitals.  If he knows Legloas is the problem and dangerous though yeah its going to be very one-sided. He doesn't use it very often but Superman is really, really, really fast.

[Lord Liaden]

"If" is definitely at play here. Let's not forget that Legolas uses no magical weapons over the whole course of the trilogy, books and movies. Not even in Peter Jackson's overblown Hobbit trilogy. Aside from wizards' staves and a very few blades, those stories are devoid of magic weapons. The Silmarillion has more, but that's also higher-level fantasy, and mostly before Legolas was even born.

[dmjalund]

even if Superman is vulnerable to magic, other flying bricks aren't. like Shazam (DC's Captain Marvel). Ar4agorn would have trouble dealing with him even with magical weapons

[Ninja-Bear]

10 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Who says all Fantasy characters have to have Resistant Defenses? What armor did Gandalf wear? Or most of the protagonists in Dungeons and Dragons: Honor Among Thieves?  Or anyone in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon?

True but all those characters are not in a game either. Perhaps Gandalf would’ve lived if he had Resistant Defenses 😏.  Crouching Tiger, they could’ve had Iron Shirt ability that we couldn’t see. And D&D doesn’t use Resistant Defenses, remember?  

[Cloppy Clip]

The way I see it, Fantasy Hero characters might be able to stock up on free equipment, but they'd still be constrained by being Heroic instead of Superheroic, which means you're limited to whatever the setting's idea of a normal person looks like. Just like a Superheroic character doesn't have to worry about NCM, being free to buy up their characteristics as high as they want, I think the Champions should be allowed to buy better equivalents of whatever the Fantasy Hero gang are limited to. So if the strongest magic sword is a 4d6 KA, the Champion should be free to buy a 16d6 Energy Blast or what have you, since they're Superheroic and are free to go beyond mortal limitations.

 

So Legolas could have a magic bow and arrow, but Superman would be free to buy up his defences against Magic to the point that those arrows plink off him harmlessly. There is the matter of points limits, so Superman might have to skip out on some Superheroic defences leaving him vulnerable to a particular mode of attack, but I feel pretty confident that the Champion should outmatch the Fantasy Hero at their chosen specialty, if nothing else.