Villains to Use but NOT Written Up

[Gauntlet]

Have any of used a villain that is on the power scale that while they may be used in the background they are never actually written up as due to their power level the heroes will never be able to fight them directly?

[Lord Liaden]

I've used the occasional cosmic being and conceptual entity, essentially as a plot device to set up the story and move the action forward. Where conflict with it was involved, it was against any minions the being had.

[Grailknight]

3 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Have any of used a villain that is on the power scale that while they may be used in the background they are never actually written up as due to their power level the heroes will never be able to fight them directly?

 

Yes, but always with the understanding that the heroes will be able to overcome them eventually.

 

If you indirectly stop the plans of a vast shadow organization that's a heroic victory. Do it often enough and you can erode their power base to something you can shut down.

 

Beating a villain that can't be directly faced sounds like the objective for an epic quest. Destroying a power source or freeing an antithesis are pretty standard tropes.

 

Maybe the heroes can't beat the villain now, but after a campaign's worth of experience, training, alliances and equipment improvements, we're ready.

 

The real worry is a supposed campaign mastermind that gets trounced by beginning level PC's because you didn't make them powerful enough on their first character sheet.

[Gauntlet]

I have run in games before, usually horror games, where you have to trap the entity, not fight them. If you trap them, they no longer are a threat.

[steriaca]

8 hours ago, Grailknight said:

The real worry is a supposed campaign mastermind that gets trounced by beginning level PC's because you didn't make them powerful enough on their first character sheet.

An easy fix. Just say the one that they faced was someone set up as a scapegoat or strawman pretending to be the major villain. 

[Grailknight]

49 minutes ago, steriaca said:

An easy fix. Just say the one that they faced was someone set up as a scapegoat or strawman pretending to be the major villain. 

 

It'll be extremely difficult for that villain to ever regain the respect lost. He'll always be that guy we beat when where just beginners, playing catch up to the PC's rather than the major player he was intended to be.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Grailknight

[Lord Liaden]

I remember our long-absent forum colleague, Lord Mhoram, remarking that shortly after Fifth Edition Champions source books started coming out, he pitted his players with their team of veteran Justice League-level PCs, against Dr. Destroyer as statted in Conquerors, Killers, And Crooks. Lord Mhoram wrote that the PCs killed Destroyer -- killed him -- in two Turns of combat.

[Gauntlet]

On 10/4/2023 at 1:18 PM, Grailknight said:

Yes, but always with the understanding that the heroes will be able to overcome them eventually.

 

Of course overcoming does not necessarily mean beating in direct conflict.

[death tribble]

The most infamous example is Dr Lirby Koo who is mentioned in various books but you never saw the stats for.

[steriaca]

2 hours ago, death tribble said:

The most infamous example is Dr Lirby Koo who is mentioned in various books but you never saw the stats for.

Don't tell that to @tiger. I seen his stats on Dr. Lirby Koo.

[death tribble]

That is new but he is pursuing work based on original work and good luck to him.

[steriaca]

I'm waiting for his take on Professor Pomegranate. 

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I'll never use Doctor Destroyer as written. He's written as cosmically powerful with a concept that isn't.... UGH!

[Cygnia]

On 10/6/2023 at 5:48 AM, death tribble said:

The most infamous example is Dr Lirby Koo who is mentioned in various books but you never saw the stats for.

Just came here to ask about him...

[Lord Liaden]

8 hours ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

I'll never use Doctor Destroyer as written. He's written as cosmically powerful with a concept that isn't.... UGH!

 

Book Of The Destroyer provides full stats for several "generations" of Destroyer's armor over his long history, as well as a "low powered" version of his current armor. You can choose the one which best suits the power level of your game.

 

BOTD has everything needed to make DD and his vast organization a major feature of a campaign, even the main focus. Plenty to use even without involving the Doctor directly. If that would be an interesting prospect to someone, it would be a very worthwhile investment, particularly given its current price in the Hero store ($10.00 US for PDF, $15.00 book plus PDF). Of course it is for Fifth Edition HERO.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Gauntlet]

10 hours ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

I'll never use Doctor Destroyer as written. He's written as cosmically powerful with a concept that isn't.... UGH!

 

I really have to agree with you. His background and personality are rather blah. And to be honest, he isn't really that tough. I have run three games now where the characters have defeated him, and they weren't that high of characters (in all cases under 500 points). His writeup kind of makes him rather a generic bad guy. He is a video game villain, not one for roleplaying.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Gauntlet

[Grailknight]

4 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

I really have to agree with you. His background and personality are rather blah. And to be honest, he isn't really that tough. I have run three games now where the characters have defeated him, and they weren't that high of characters (in all cases under 500 points). His writeup kind of makes him rather a generic bad guy. He is a video game villain, not one for roleplaying.

 

I'm scared of your campaign. Just how did they beat him?

[Duke Bushido]

On 10/4/2023 at 12:43 PM, Gauntlet said:

Have any of used a villain that is on the power scale that while they may be used in the background they are never actually written up as due to their power level the heroes will never be able to fight them directly?

 

I am goinf to need some parameters to determine what is or is not in the set of "fight them."

 

If you mean direct fisticuffs and energy blasts, then, give your qualifier of "never," I have to say "rarely."  I mean very rarely, at least in supers games.  It might take experience earned during a two-year story arc, and it might take the skillful coordinated efforts of the entire team, but almost all of my villains can eventually be taken down with direct confrontation.

 

The trick is _getting to them_; discovering who is behind it all and developing the what-it-takes or finding the mystic McGuffin- whatever, that makes it possible.  Certainly for the very powerful villains, I leave other options such as the  resource attrition others  have mentioned above, or myatic entrapment or some hokey phantom zone trap, but I always try to leave at least avenue open-  if difficult and treacherous- to direct confrontation, because over the years I have noticed-  particularly in sypers games- that while players are indeed _pleased_ when they can seal Molochai the Executioner behind the Great Barrier of Kaphoon or trap the Magus inside his crystal prison, and that they celebrate and go "we won!  We did it!," they seem,to much more _satisfied_  when they finally get that one go-for-broke chance to actually knock him on his ass.  It's a visceral thing that, guilty pleasure or not, we like as human beings: socking the bad guy right on the nose.

 

 

5 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

I really have to agree with you. His background and personality are rather blah. And to be honest, he isn't really that tough. 

 

The problem with sub-cosmic Dr . Destroyer isnt his overall toughness: it is that when used "properly (within the CU confines of who he is and how he operates)  you never get to him.  There is always another layer (like taking out a couple millionaires people to 'fake his own death), and if you happen to pass him on the city sidewalk, that, too, was planed, and there is always an escape.  It's like trying to get a photograph of Jehovah, and there is nothing about the character that really makes you want him to be part of the story anyway.

 

As LL pointed out, thw Book ofbthe Destroyer pointed out all kinds of options for him in power level, history, plots, goals--

 

But it did exactly nothing to make him interesting.  If you want a villain of that level that incites curiosity, wipe Destroyer out of your universe and replace him with Kreuzritter from Silver Age Sentinels.  He has had exactly 1/10000 as many words written about him, and is still infintely more interesting, even while being a stereotype at heart.

 

Dr. D was a 1e villain written for one specific groyo's campaign and pulled to play the (undetectable) bad guy in the only 1e adventure ever written, and frankly, that should have been the end of him.  His only appeal has aleays been "well, I dont have to write up a planetary scale villain if I chuck this guy into my adventure," and I have no idea how that has carried him for forty years.

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[Hugh Neilson]

55 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Dr. D was a 1e villain written for one specific groyo's campaign and pulled to play the (undetectable) bad guy in the only 1e adventure ever written, and frankly, that should have been the end of him.  His only appeal has aleays been "well, I dont have to write up a planetary scale villain if I chuck this guy into my adventure," and I have no idea how that has carried him for forty years.

 

I think his staying power is that nostalgia that he was the villain in the very first Hero Module.  [Wasn't Stronghold 1e? Pretty sure Deathstroke was 2e.  The editions weren't overly different.]  Adventures in the mid-1980's were not as developed as they evolved into. The personality and backstory was typically the GM's job, not the module's job.

[Gauntlet]

2 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

I'm scared of your campaign. Just how did they beat him?

 

First all of them were earlier versions then the current one so he was not quite as tough as he is in 6th edition. The last one they beat him but being rather resourceful (that was 5th edition). First the made sure to not stay close together so that when he attacked, he really only had the chance to hit one (area effect notwithstanding). Second, they made sure that he attacked first so that whoever he was currently attacking could go defensive. And last they had a healer on the group that would go to assist those who went down.

 

A lot of my gamers are also wargamers (Battletech, Warhammer, and a few others) which has a tendency to have them to keep tactics in mind.

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

I am goinf to need some parameters to determine what is or is not in the set of "fight them."

 

If you mean direct fisticuffs and energy blasts, then, give your qualifier of "never," I have to say "rarely."  I mean very rarely, at least in supers games.  It might take experience earned during a two-year story arc, and it might take the skillful coordinated efforts of the entire team, but almost all of my villains can eventually be taken down with direct confrontation.

 

The trick is _getting to them_; discovering who is behind it all and developing the what-it-takes or finding the mystic McGuffin- whatever, that makes it possible.  Certainly for the very powerful villains, I leave other options such as the  resource attrition others  have mentioned above, or myatic entrapment or some hokey phantom zone trap, but I always try to leave at least avenue open-  if difficult and treacherous- to direct confrontation, because over the years I have noticed-  particularly in sypers games- that while players are indeed _pleased_ when they can seal Molochai the Executioner behind the Great Barrier of Kaphoon or trap the Magus inside his crystal prison, and that they celebrate and go "we won!  We did it!," they seem,to much more _satisfied_  when they finally get that one go-for-broke chance to actually knock him on his ass.  It's a visceral thing that, guilty pleasure or not, we like as human beings: socking the bad guy right on the nose.

 

 

 

The problem with sub-cosmic Dr . Destroyer isnt his overall toughness: it is that when used "properly (within the CU confines of who he is and how he operates)  you never get to him.  There is always another layer (like taking out a couple millionaires people to 'fake his own death), and if you happen to pass him on the city sidewalk, that, too, was planed, and there is always an escape.  It's like trying to get a photograph of Jehovah, and there is nothing about the character that really makes you want him to be part of the story anyway.

 

As LL pointed out, thw Book ofbthe Destroyer pointed out all kinds of options for him in power level, history, plots, goals--

 

But it did exactly nothing to make him interesting.  If you want a villain of that level that incites curiosity, wipe Destroyer out of your universe and replace him with Kreuzritter from Silver Age Sentinels.  He has had exactly 1/10000 as many words written about him, and is still infintely more interesting, even while being a stereotype at heart.

 

Dr. D was a 1e villain written for one specific groyo's campaign and pulled to play the (undetectable) bad guy in the only 1e adventure ever written, and frankly, that should have been the end of him.  His only appeal has aleays been "well, I dont have to write up a planetary scale villain if I chuck this guy into my adventure," and I have no idea how that has carried him for forty years.

 

 

 

 

True, overwhelmingly in most cases you are not truly fighting him, just a robot version of him, which in many ways puts in in the not written up category. Technically you could state that he is in a life support drum, keeping his extremely old body alive having drones do all his regular work or dirty work.

 

But the ones I have used have been Cthulhulian in nature, being from another universe trying to get into ours, and at the power level where if they were successful everyone, including that 5000 point hero, are dead.

[Lord Liaden]

48 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I think his staying power is that nostalgia that he was the villain in the very first Hero Module.  [Wasn't Stronghold 1e? Pretty sure Deathstroke was 2e.  The editions weren't overly different.]  Adventures in the mid-1980's were not as developed as they evolved into. The personality and backstory was typically the GM's job, not the module's job.

 

Dr. Destroyer got his first significant rewrite/upgrade courtesy of the late great Scott Bennie, in Classic Enemies for 4E. TBH and IMO, Scott did a much better job than Steve Long at giving him an interesting background, and justifying his personality and motivations through outlining his history (although Scott kept the severe burn scars from his first published appearance that made him an obvious Dr. Doom analogue). Scott added more layers to the Doctor in his classic adventure module, Day of the Destroyer, which cemented DD as the arch-villain of the CU.

 

I like to blend elements of Scott's and Steve's incarnations of Destroyer for my own uses of him. Best of both worlds. 👌

[Dr. MID-Nite]

11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Book Of The Destroyer provides full stats for several "generations" of Destroyer's armor over his long history, as well as a "low powered" version of his current armor. You can choose the one which best suits the power level of your game.

 

BOTD has everything needed to make DD and his vast organization a major feature of a campaign, even the main focus. Plenty to use even without involving the Doctor directly. If that would be an interesting prospect to someone, it would be a very worthwhile investment, particularly given its current price in the Hero store ($10.00 US for PDF, $15.00 book plus PDF). Of course it is for Fifth Edition HERO.

 

If I decide to bring a "Doom" type mastermind into my game, I'd probably just rather use Professor Muerte. "Shrugs"

[Duke Bushido]

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I think his staying power is that nostalgia that he was the villain in the very first Hero Module. 

 

Quite possibly.  Nostalgia makes folks believe some wiers things when it'a a nostalgia completely important to them.  Heck, Harley Davidson has built an empire from a marketing campaign that is quite literally nostalgia for a time that never actually existed.  Still, if he had quietely faded away after that adventure, then later adoptwra of Champions would have been innocylated against the potential to want him kept around.

 

 

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

[Wasn't Stronghold 1e?

 

 

 

 

Yes.

 

It also, despite the cover blurb stating otherwise, was absolutely not an adventure.

 

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

7 hours ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

 

If I decide to bring a "Doom" type mastermind into my game, I'd probably just rather use Professor Muerte. "Shrugs"

 

With or without Dr. Destroyer in his history? And what is it about Muerte that makes him more appealing to you than Destroyer?

Edited October 9, 2023 by Lord Liaden