rules design Could Rules for Hero Gaming System Be Getting To Complicated?

[LoneWolf]

One of the things to consider is that in the in the comic books a character is often more powerful in their own comic than they are in someone or when they are part of a team. Often they will come up with a reason but as a rule a character is always more powerful in their own stories.  A good example of this is in a Dr. Strange comic Dr. Strange beat Wolverine in hand to hand combat.  The justification was that Wolverine was possessed by a magic spirit that caused him to fight less efficiently.  If I remember correctly Strange did not use his magic on Wolverine because the sprit gave Wolverine protection vs magic.   

 

That means when you are basing your character on a concept from the comic books you need to base it off the character as they are in team comic or another character's comic.   If you want to play the Flash you need to play the one character in the JLA comic, not the one in Flash.   
 

[Gauntlet]

Interesting through. One thing to always make sure is that your player's characters can work together and don't use each other's sticks. Can be hard to do sometimes.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Another rule is that if a hero does a heel turn and becomes a bad guy, they gain 50% or more power level.  Conversely, a villain who turns good loses a good half of their power or more.

[Gauntlet]

I have had a number of characters go from Hero to Villain, and yes they definitely need to have both a power increase with in many cases new powers coming into play. Had a regeneration character who was a little crazy in the first place go to try to infiltrate a villain institution but rolled an 18 on his acting roll. Well since he was a "Method Actor" he didn't fail, he was so good at his acting that he began to believe that he was the villain he was pretending to be. With that change he started using a lot more rather nasty gadgets and a number of mob skills. Was a problem for the heroes for quite a while.

[Ninja-Bear]

The one conceit of gaming is that concept and dice rolls don’t always mix. 😁

[Ninja-Bear]

@unclevlad fwiw, talking to my friends who are old time comic book fans (and one was a writer). Speedster like the Flash shouldn’t be hit at all. It’s the conceit of the game that they are able to be hit.

[Gauntlet]

10 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@unclevlad fwiw, talking to my friends who are old time comic book fans (and one was a writer). Speedster like the Flash shouldn’t be hit at all. It’s the conceit of the game that they are able to be hit.

 

I have had plenty of speedsters who when moving most attackers need less than an 8 to hit, and in many combats they take no direct hits. The only way they are hit is either with Area Effect or Mental attacks. Problem also is that having a high DEX, SPEED, and DCV uses up a pretty good amount of points. Making it rather hard for them to also have high defenses for the campaign they are in. Plus, even in the Flash comic, he gets hit by a direct shot once in a while.

 

And sometimes even in comics you get that marksman who is so good, he can hit a bullet with a bullet!

Edited December 13, 2023 by Gauntlet

[Sketchpad]

23 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Well, let's put it this way: if your concept is the full potential of a comic book speedster when logically followed through to their natural consequences and the way they are on occasion depicted... nobody has that many points and you cannot build that character.

 

But you can build a speedster that acts much like a comic book speedster in most of their encounters.  No, there's no chance anyone can shoot their freeze ray gun faster than the Flash can dodge it.  No, Mirror Master could not reach over and push buttons on his wrist before the Flash could run around the world seven times, eat a pizza, and read a book, then stop the button pushing.

 

And both of those things happen in the comics: the freeze ray goes off before Flash acts, Mirror Master pushes his silly buttons before the Flash can stop him.

 

For me, this is the story told after the game.

 

"Man, I can't believe that Barry's Flash was able to dodge that freeze ray by Captain Cold. I think the GM was figuring he'd have stopped Flash cold." 

"Tough luck Barry, the dice gods definitely weren't smiling on you when you got hit with Mirror Master's trap! Good thing that Wally was able to play today, otherwise you might need Bruce to come in and save the day. Again."

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Speedster like the Flash shouldn’t be hit at all. It’s the conceit of the game that they are able to be hit.

 

One comic I particularly liked was Wally feeling a pressure against the back of his neck.  Then he noticed that everyone in the movie theater, and the movie, were frozen.  He'd had someone shoot him, the bullet touched him, and he went into super speed mode defensively, so fast everything was frozen.

 

And Wally was never as powerful as Barry.  No, the Flash shouldn't ever be hit, but its very difficult to find a challenge for someone as powerful as DC makes their heroes.  So their powers vary wildly between comic to comic and even page to page in the same comic.  That happened constantly in the Flash TV show, he was either faster than a bullet or wasn't, depending on what the scene required.  Drove me nuts.

[Ninja-Bear]

@Christopher R Taylor that’s why Kyptonite was created for Superman. To give him a challenge.

[Gauntlet]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

One comic I particularly liked was Wally feeling a pressure against the back of his neck.  Then he noticed that everyone in the movie theater, and the movie, were frozen.  He'd had someone shoot him, the bullet touched him, and he went into super speed mode defensively, so fast everything was frozen.

 

And Wally was never as powerful as Barry.  No, the Flash shouldn't ever be hit, but its very difficult to find a challenge for someone as powerful as DC makes their heroes.  So their powers vary wildly between comic to comic and even page to page in the same comic.  That happened constantly in the Flash TV show, he was either faster than a bullet or wasn't, depending on what the scene required.  Drove me nuts.

 

Well if you want to state that your speedster has no way of being hit by a bullet (even with a 3 with games that consider 3 to always hit and 18 always miss), then give him Desolification (0 END, Continuous, Always On, Not Through Barriers, not when unconscious, and possible not when stunned) with the special effect that he always dodges the attack. That way there is no chance at all for the attack to hit him.

 

Now you might mention what about Effects Desolid. I usually will not allow that advantage while at the same time making Desolification have a realistic effect that can affect it. In the case of a speedster's Desolification the way to affect him/her would be Area Effect or Mental Attacks.

 

But all in all, it depends on the power level of your characters. Should they be WORLD OR EVEN GALAXY PROTECTING HEROES, their power level will probably make it rather easy for them to have such things as they most likely will be over 800 points. But should you have your characters be kids just learning their power, then definitely not as they will probably be only 300 points and many times even lower.

 

All in All I believe that Desolification will be less expensive then buying up their DCV to an overwhelming level.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Gauntlet

[unclevlad]

One trick I've seen for speedsters is a lot cheaper:  Invis.  They're simply moving too fast to be targeted.  Desolid is just too much of a PITA.  (And your suggestion wouldn't be legal.)

[LoneWolf]

There is nothing wrong with a GM telling a player that is a cool concept but it is not going to work in the game I am running.   The game is a cooperative effort that is supposed to be fun for everyone.  When your concept starts to create problems for the GM and especially for the other players you need to be willing to modify your concept.  In fact this is something that a good GM will do to ensure everyone is enjoying the game.   I would go so far as to say that it is a responsibility of the GM to ensure that no character ruins the fun for the rest of the group.   

 

A good GM will should give some advice on how to tone things down so you can play a character you want. But they should make sure that no one character dominates the game or creates problems.    
 

[Hugh Neilson]

 

8 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Well if you want to state that your speedster has no way of being hit by a bullet (even with a 3 with games that consider 3 to always hit and 18 always miss), then give him Desolification (0 END, Continuous, Always On, Not Through Barriers, not when unconscious, and possible not when stunned) with the special effect that he always dodges the attack. That way there is no chance at all for the attack to hit him.

 

Now you might mention what about Effects Desolid. I usually will not allow that advantage while at the same time making Desolification have a realistic effect that can affect it. In the case of a speedster's Desolification the way to affect him/her would be Area Effect or Mental Attacks.

 

But all in all, it depends on the power level of your characters. Should they be WORLD OR EVEN GALAXY PROTECTING HEROES, their power level will probably make it rather easy for them to have such things as they most likely will be over 800 points. But should you have your characters be kids just learning their power, then definitely not as they will probably be only 300 points and many times even lower.

 

Affects Solid World is also pretty pricy.

 

At standard power levels, "most attacks can't touch me" is likely overpowered. In a game at 800 points, perhaps we should be pulling out the APG for 100% Damage Reduction for our Speedster who reacts so rapidly that most attacks can never connect.

[LoneWolf]

I don’t have a problem with characters being hard to hit with most attacks, as long as they can still be challenged.   If the character with the sky high DCV has poor defenses to the point where one hit with an average attack for the campaign is likely to take them out of the combat that can usually work.   If the character is nearly imposable to hit and can shrug off nearly all attacks that is another story. 

 

Also, if the character has to maintain a very defenses strategy to keep from being hit that also offsets some of the problem.  The character that has a high DCV due to dodging or applying skill levels reduces his offensive capabilities to balance the character.  The speedster who spends half the time dodging attacks works, the one that shows up and automatically disarms and captures all the opponents does not.  The first speedster has an effective SPD of half his listed SPD, the second one creates problems. 

 

If the group can work the speedster into their tactics he becomes less of a problem. For example, when the tank of group draws the attacks of the opponents to give the speedster the opportunity to act because the opponent has already attacked involves both characters.     
 

[Hugh Neilson]

9 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

the one that shows up and automatically disarms and captures all the opponents creates problems.

 

Edited above.  If one character, or the entire group, render combat meaningless, I see three choices:

 

 - Their characters need to be toned down to match the game.  This is probably the only real answer if only one character is problematic.

 

 - The opposition needs to be cranked up to match the characters.  If it's only one overpowered character, arranging for every opponent to have someone who can deal with that one problem character and not overpower the rest is tough.  "It seems like EVERY villain team and agent squad has a kryptonite-based weapon".

 

 - Combat is no longer the focus of the game. The challenge moves to finding the opponents so that they can be automatically disarmed and captured, or preventing them using their out of combat resources to avoid punishment for their crimes. Only one character?  Funny how something ALWAYS comes up to distract him so he has to go deal with an off-screen issue, just before combat, isn't it?

[Gauntlet]

But I believe we are forgetting, Champions is a ROLE-PLAYING Game, not a Comic or TV show or Movie. The purpose of it is to have fun, making a story is just a portion of having fun. While The Flash may be completely unhittable to the point that even a Phalanx system that shoots a 1000 rounds a second cannot hit him, that is not something you would have in a game. Characters have to have vulnerabilities and be able to be hit and knocked out, and even possibly killed. Without this what is the point of playing if there is no chance of losing.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I would be fine with characters being unhittable by physical or energy attacks, if that's their main thing.  For example I had a game where a guy played a crossbow specialist with the usual gadget warheads.  His OCV was 12 with that thing.  He never missed, not once in the campaign.  That was his thing.  He wasn't the most dangerous enemy, or the toughest or fastest, he just was accurate.  That kind of character I am okay with, I like player characters to shine, as long as they don't dominate.

 

But if you're unhittable AND really dangerous AND really fast etc, well we have a problem.  Like Lonewolf and Gauntlet said, its about being challenged.  If you can create a challenge for them, then its okay.

[Duke Bushido]

15 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Well if you want to state that your speedster has no way of being hit by a bullet (even with a 3 with games that consider 3 to always hit and 18 always miss), then give him Desolification (0 END, Continuous, Always On, Not Through Barriers, not when unconscious, and possible not when stunned) with the special effect that he always dodges the attack. That way there is no chance at all for the attack to hit him.

 

That'a about where I was headed when I got to the Flash examples.

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Now you might mention what about Effects Desolid. I usually will not allow that advantage while at the same time making Desolification have a realistic effect that can affect it.

 

Same, though I go a bit further by asking for an explanation as to the nature of the Desolid.  I can then chuck that into a very broad category like "is a ghost" or "gaseous form" or "phase resonance" or whatever, and then work with the player for a reasonable set of common things /SFX _would_ effect him.  When I do allow "affects Desolid," I generally ask the details on that, which puts us into one or more categories of Desilid that can be affected, making it a bit less blanket-y.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, unclevlad said:

One trick I've seen for speedsters is a lot cheaper:  Invis.  

 

 

 

Dude!  All these years, and that never actually occurred to me!  I have even stated before that out of all the superhero stereotypes, I have a soft spot for Speedsters, and _still_, I have never thoight of that.

 

 

Thanks, Vlad!

 

 

 

7 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

There is nothing wrong with a GM telling a player that is a cool concept but it is not going to work in the game I am running.  

 

Agreed.  Honestly, I think most any _experienced_ GM _would_.

 

I also remember those early days, though, when we were so desperate to have players-  maybe we can make this a regular thing!  Maybe this Will coalesce into a refular gaming group!  Maybe maybe maybe!-

 

That we really did put up with too much, for too long, just because we were worried the game might not happen or might fall apart if we said "no."

 

 

 

And as for the original question:

 

Yes.

 

But the game isnt killing itself.  It is being killed by the same thing that is killing (has killed, according to many) comic books:

 

Fans who started young, matured, and wanted the games rules / superhero stories to reflect an increased complexity, an evolving maturity-  that sort of shuts out anyone else jumping in, able to start from anywhere.  Superhero stories turned into soap operas; high-flying RPGs turned into sub-par physics simulators.

 

We got what we asked for, and despite all of our protestations, it (they) will die with us.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gauntlet]

21 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

But the game isnt killing itself.  It is being killed by the same thing that is killing (has killed, according to many) comic books:

 

On thing I do think that Hero does well, is allowing all of their earlier versions be available and even supported. If you do have a group of new players, you could even have your game utilize an earlier version that may be a bit simpler. Then in the future, go to a newer version if you feel it is necessary, or stay with the older one, who cares as long as you and your players are having fun. 

 

And to add, the problem I see with invisibility is what to be invisible to. So does it mean that if you have invisibility to sight, does that mean that someone who can attack with hearing can hit you? Also, just because you are fast should it mean that you are also immune to mental attacks?

Edited December 13, 2023 by Gauntlet

[Ninja-Bear]

Another thing I wanted to point out even though we’re talking about Hero System, other gaming systems have seem to miss the mark at different things on representing genre. I ran across a House Rule on MSH because as RAW, High Strength Characters like the Hulk have an easier time to grab Spiderman. And the House Rule address that you don’t see that happen often in the Comics.  (FWIW Speedsters get shorted in that game too.) iirc, at least in Fourth under translation follies this brought up. Some things don’t work as well in the game as it does in the Comics. I don’t think that it’s a problem as much a something to remember. 

[Rich McGee]

41 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

But the game isnt killing itself.  It is being killed by the same thing that is killing (has killed, according to many) comic books:

 

Fans who started young, matured, and wanted the games rules / superhero stories to reflect an increased complexity, an evolving maturity-  that sort of shuts out anyone else jumping in, able to start from anywhere.  Superhero stories turned into soap operas; high-flying RPGs turned into sub-par physics simulators.

With regard to comics locking out new young readers, I don't think it's really the complexity that's the issue most of the time.  It's the cost.  $4-5 per floppy is crazy, especially in an era where standalone stories are almost unheard of and storytelling decompression is forced on everything to fit in trades properly.  Combine that with endless crossover events that try to get you to buy large numbers of titles to get the whole story (and interrupt ongoing stories in individual books in the process) and comics are a terrible value for your entertainment dollar even adjusting for inflation.

 

There are many other issues with modern comics, especially from the Big Two, but at the end of the day they just plain cost too much to compete with the thousands of other entertainment options kids have these days.  And among those options are countless free webcomics, some of which (eg Silverback and its side stories, Magellan) are as good as anything being printed on paper these days.  They have a tendency to up and die or go on eternal hiatus without much warning (eg Strong Female Protagonist, Edison Rex, PS238) but regular comics get cancelled the same way too.

[unclevlad]

My issue with comics is the state of the art.  It's TERRIBLE.  

 

In re crossovers:  yeah, especially now because you have to make a special trip to the comics store...IF there's one in your area.  This makes the crossover problem much more acute...took a lot of trips.  I think the overuse of crossovers may have had a general market depression effect...because you couldn't subscribe to 2-3 favorites and get the whole story, and subscribing to 10-12?  For 1-2 issues you wanted???  And last point on those lines:  you almost couldn't NOT stay current with them, because they were major shifts, if not complete resets.

[Khymeria]

I think it isn't only power level that needs to be considered with Flash on a team, for example, versus Flash in a solo book, but also the Complications. Batman is a great example of different character sheets, the solo one has a focus on vehicles, bases, and gear with Alfred and Gordon and whichever Robin showing up more. In the JLA character sheet, Batman is a more ferocious combatant with gear and the vehicle and bases take a backseat. The Alfred, Gordon, Robin stuff is reduced and you shift those Complications into Doesn't Fully Trust Anyone and some dark secret about having files on the rest of the league and ways to deal with them. Batman has to share the spotlight so you can't have the full supporting cast and have to focus both in and out of combat on other things so other characters get their chance to share the comic.

[Hugh Neilson]

14 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Another thing I wanted to point out even though we’re talking about Hero System, other gaming systems have seem to miss the mark at different things on representing genre. I ran across a House Rule on MSH because as RAW, High Strength Characters like the Hulk have an easier time to grab Spiderman. And the House Rule address that you don’t see that happen often in the Comics.  (FWIW Speedsters get shorted in that game too.) iirc, at least in Fourth under translation follies this brought up. Some things don’t work as well in the game as it does in the Comics. I don’t think that it’s a problem as much a something to remember. 

 

Transitioning things between media always carries issues that "some things" don't work as well.  Weekly TV is much better at supporting an ensemble cast than a movie franchise.  The printed page and the screen support different elements (Supers can keep those full-face masks on; actors need to convey facial expressions - plus we did not pay for a Big Name to hide their faces constantly).

 

The first example I always think of is "splitting the party".  Having each member of the team go off to do something different works great in print and on screen. Not so much when the GM and 1 player at a time are playing and the rest of the group is just watching.

 

19 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

But I believe we are forgetting, Champions is a ROLE-PLAYING Game, not a Comic or TV show or Movie. The purpose of it is to have fun, making a story is just a portion of having fun. While The Flash may be completely unhittable to the point that even a Phalanx system that shoots a 1000 rounds a second cannot hit him, that is not something you would have in a game. Characters have to have vulnerabilities and be able to be hit and knocked out, and even possibly killed. Without this what is the point of playing if there is no chance of losing.

 

While there needs to be some chance of losing in a game, there's not much drama or tension in a book, comic, TV show or movie if there is no chance of the protagonist losing either.  Especially in serialized fiction, where we pretty much know that the Hero will survive and likely come out on top, efforts to create suspense over the success or failure take a lot of work.

 

When we narrowly define "success" and "failure", it becomes that much harder.  Death is not the only way to lose.  Combat is not the only resolution to conflicts.

 

If the expectation of the game is that the heroes will largely resolve conflicts in combat - the combat encounters will define success and failure, we can't have Unhittable Flash and Unhurtable Superman.

 

But if their opponent is Lex Luthor, non-combat corporate kingpin investing massive resources in an aura of legitimacy and seeking the Presidency, Flash can't speed him away and Supes can't punch him out of office. 

 

Well, they COULD, I suppose. Either could knock him out, or even snuff out his life, with no effort at all.  But that would not be a "win" in the game, because "beat Luthor in combat" is not the "victory condition", to coin a phrase.

 

If we are going to run a game of Silver Age Supers, so powerful that no opponent can hope to prevail in combat, then we need to design our game around challenges that are not resolved by combat. Flipping that around, if we are expecting to run a game where the primary source of tension and drama is conflict resolution by combat, then the PCs cannot be Silver Age Supers for whom combat results are a foregone conclusion.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Hugh Neilson