How is Chaosium Basic Role Playing compared to Hero System?

[fdw3773]

I noticed that in recent years Chaosium relaunched its classic role-playing games in conjunction with updated versions of others. Of note was Super World, which I heard a lot of good things about in reflecting the style and feel of the superhero genre. I also came across similar reviews for its fantasy themed RPGs. More recently, Chaosium has released Basic Role Playing, which is arguably the counterpart to the core system rule book published by Hero Games.

 

How is Chaosium Basic Role Playing compared to Hero System? I haven't read Chaosium Basic Role Playing or games under that system like Super World yet, but previously ran Pendragon (1st Ed.) many years ago, so I have some familiarity with Chaosium products.

[Rich McGee]

I haven't picked up the latest edition of BRP, but it uses the same fundamentally skill-driven percentile-based engine Chaosium has been known for since the company formed.  BRP effectively competes with its relative Mythras as well (which is why I've put off buying NuBRP), both of which are aiming to be "do anything" rule sets like Hero and GURPS (to name just a few).  I know from a flip-through that modern BRP has sections on using it for various genres, one of which is supers, but I'm not sure how detailed or useful they are.

 

I played but never owned SuperWorld (the stand alone version, not the abbreviated Worlds of Wonder one- that I had) back in the day, and can't say I loved it.  It seemed prone to a higher lethality rate than I like in supers games, and compared to contemporary Hero (which I want to say was 3rd?  Maybe 4th?) it didn't feel like it was very well balanced - iIRC the point-buy budget for super-stuff was based on how well you'd rolled on your basic stats.  Presumably the new BRP has addressed that but I can't guarantee it.  The game also has a pretty bad rep for extremely poor editing, something that Steve Perrin (who also authored Robot Warriors for Hero in 1986, as well as an adventure or two) was reportedly pretty steamed about - there was supposedly some sort of botch job when assembling it for print and several iterations of playtest docs got muddled together instead of the finished doc by itself.  If wiki is to be believed Perrin blamed/credited the game's mediocre sales partly on that and partly on it being too similar to Champions.

 

If I sound critical of SW, you might take that with a grain of salt.  I had a bad experience with it for a few months in 1984, but the period reviews were solid enough and it did have its fans (not least of whom being my long-ago college GM).  It's the only one of the Worlds of Wonder bare-bones settings to get an independent, expanded publication, and at one point there were adventures being published with dual stats for both SW and Champions.  The pdf is still available if you're just curious about it.

 

It also wins my personal award for Best Supers Adventure Title Ever, mostly because it takes some serious stones to publish something called Bad Medicine For Doctor Drugs even in the mid-Eighties.    Then again, I may be a bit biased since I homaged the title character with Professor Pusher over here.   Hmmm.  I should do a Masks port the next time our "Eighties Kids" group gets together to run the game in an era with no smart phones and only the vaguest hint of an internet. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Rich McGee

[Christopher R Taylor]

I was never impressed with SuperWorld, but it had great Steranko art

[Rich McGee]

That is true, although I think I'd give V&V first place for artwork back in the day.  Really hard to beat Jeff Dee and Bill Willingham when you're illustrating a supers RPG. 

 

DC had some lovely Perez work, but I don't think it was commissioned specifically for the game beyond maybe the box cover.

[Duke Bushido]

I really want to answer, but I don't remember!

 

Though honestly....

 

I _still_ play it's original contemporary (2e Champions), and I remember having played both Worlds of Wonder (meh) and Paladium's (Remember that video with the guy who said "pi-LAH-dyum"?  That was what?  A year ago?  _Still_ bugs me....) Fantasy Role playing, and their BRP--

 

And I don't remeber anything at all except percentile dice.....

 

Though I guess all that in itself actually says quite a lot....

 

Hey, @Scott Ruggels:  did George and company have a clue back in the day the staying power rhis game would have?     

 

[Scott Ruggels]

27 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

..

 

Hey, @Scott Ruggels:  did George and company have a clue back in the day the staying power rhis game would have?     

 

I don’t know about bGeorge, but Steve Petersen sure did. Only now is he writing a new system.  

[Duke Bushido]

What is he doing now?

 

I have fallen out of the community as a whole: I play the same,three games I like, amd am content.

[Rich McGee]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

I _still_ play it's original contemporary (2e Champions)

Wow, it was 2nd, wasn't it?  SW didn't drop till 1983 and Hero 3rd was 1984.  Now I feel old.  Would've sworn it was 3rd, or very early 4th when I played SW.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

DC had some lovely Perez work, but I don't think it was commissioned specifically for the game beyond maybe the box cover.

 

Well when you have some 70 years of art piled up it seems wasteful to commission new work for interiors

[assault]

BRP has one advantage over Hero. The rules can be summarized briefly.

The Worlds of Wonder version had the core rules in 16 pages, plus another 16 each for Magic World, Superworld and Future World. While each of the latter three beg expansion (and Superworld was expanded), having such a concise format is obviously a benefit when it comes to learning how to play it.

At times I've considered using Superworld as the basis for a fully point based version of it.

[Duke Bushido]

So say 32 pages.

 

The 5e-- what was it called?  Resource kit,I think (you think i'd remember; I bought like eight of them!) has a pamphlet of hyper condensed rules that I belive weighs in at just under that.  That and Lucha HERO are probably the beat thing to come out of 5e.

 

 

[Rich McGee]

9 hours ago, assault said:

BRP has one advantage over Hero. The rules can be summarized briefly.

I'd also contend that percentile skill systems are just plain more intuitive for most folks, especially non- or new-gamers.  They then go on to spoil that a bit with a full range of poly dice for damage and a few other functions, but everyone groks what a 75% chance means where reading the odds on a 3d6 roll is a less universal skill.  That factors in to the ease of summarizing, of course.

9 hours ago, assault said:

At times I've considered using Superworld as the basis for a fully point based version of it.

It's on the cusp if being actually good even in its current (badly-edited) state, and someone experienced with Hero (or any point-buy supers system) that wanted to put in the work could probably make it shine.  I'd certainly put it ahead of GURPS Supers or the Silver Age Sentinels/Absolute Power BESM-engine games in that regard, which I can also see unrealized potential in.

 

Well, maybe not Absolute Power.  All these years and they somehow made a worse version of SAS.

8 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

The 5e-- what was it called?  Resource kit,I think (you think i'd remember; I bought like eight of them!) has a pamphlet of hyper condensed rules that I belive weighs in at just under that. 

I think you might mean the Sidekick book, but there's some overlap with the Resource Kit as well.  They're both very slim, and in the store for single-digit prices.

 

I bought the slim BRP book many times over, but only because it was bundled with every boxed RPG Chaosium released for years and I bought pretty much all of them.  Yes, even Ringworld and Elfquest.  Heck, I still have a Madcoil miniature from the EQ figure range that came out for the game. 

 

I really should pick up the new BRP.  I know I like the system, and while I had the "yellow cover" interim version it was lost in a flood years ago so it's not like I'd be duplicating something I have on the shelves.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Rich McGee said:

I'd also contend that percentile skill systems are just plain more intuitive for most folks, especially non- or new-gamers.  They then go on to spoil that a bit with a full range of poly dice for damage and a few other functions, but everyone groks what a 75% chance means where reading the odds on a 3d6 roll is a less universal skill.  That factors in to the ease of summarizing, of course.

It's on the cusp if being actually good even in its current (badly-edited) state, and someone experienced with Hero (or any point-buy supers system) that wanted to put in the work could probably make it shine.  I'd certainly put it ahead of GURPS Supers or the Silver Age Sentinels/Absolute Power BESM-engine games in that regard, which I can also see unrealized potential in.

 

Well, maybe not Absolute Power.  All these years and they somehow made a worse version of SAS.

I think you might mean the Sidekick book, but there's some overlap with the Resource Kit as well.  They're both very slim, and in the store for single-digit prices.

 

I bought the slim BRP book many times over, but only because it was bundled with every boxed RPG Chaosium released for years and I bought pretty much all of them.  Yes, even Ringworld and Elfquest.  Heck, I still have a Madcoil miniature from the EQ figure range that came out for the game. 

 

I really should pick up the new BRP.  I know I like the system, and while I had the "yellow cover" interim version it was lost in a flood years ago so it's not like I'd be duplicating something I have on the shelves.

 

 

No; I mean the Resource Kit, available here:

 

 

I just grabbed one of mine to double-check the page count.  The bookllet totals 48 pages.

 

The last three page atea "AoE Template / diagram (ie, "oops.  We need some page filler.")

 

Before that are several pages of "record sheets" (character, vehicle, base, minion-- everything wxcept the old Turtle Armor control sheet from days of yore.  Since I seem to be the only player on the planet who does not use HERO Designer, I feel like this is probably filler fluff, but since it's potential usefulness is limited to _me_, I feel pretty special! 

 

Anyway. I have a to of things to do, so let me skip further back and say that the hyper-condensed rules start on page 5 and run through page 33, for a total page count of 28.

 

It is _hyper-concentrated_; I can't stress that enough.  Honestly, the loss of so much unnecessary verbiage makes it feel vaguely 1e-2e, except that the rules are 5e.  The info-density is such that it helps to have an experienced user on tap, but it isn't really necessary.

 

For a decade or more, people have been pushing "HERO on two pages" as a primer for new players, but-- if you can find a willing subject-- I defy anyone to find someone who knows nothing about HERO, let his study HERO in Two Pages for as long as he wants, and then him a character sheet or drop a map on the table, hand him some dice and two character sheets, and have him run a quick combat.  I defy you.  In fact, I _dare_ you to do it!  I'll give you a nickel if you try.

 

HERO in Two Pages is _useless, and always has been, as a primer. It is just a flow chart of steps-  not _processes_, mind you, but stages: first comes this, then comes that, then comes this....

 

The Resource Kit is the _rules_: the thing that H2P guides you through.

 

I have no idea why they still have some in stock, but I think I am going to pick up a couple more while I am logged in: I have eight copies of Everything else (including the too-big, too-crowded to be useful GM screen), but I only have two copies of the booklet left:  New players occasional borrow one to study on their own (they are the _perfect_ table reference for a 5e or even a 4e game, and work great for any edition if you point out what you _won't_ be using- or for 6e players, maybe type up a page with the Characteristics-building rules and slip them in), but they don't always come back.

 

For comparison, I paid the local print shop some years back to do me up some slick glossy colored H2P sheets.  The only ones I ever lost were used as coasters (by me, upon realizing no one found it helpful at all).

 

Anyway, gotta run: got a trailer to finish repairing; got to check on my old man and his dog (je was trying to carry his retriever into the house after she had leg surgery, and dropped her trying to put her over-- because he doesn't seem to remember he's eighty....  Ever!  (It is all good- I was actually pulling up to his place at that moment-  I literally heard him yell as I was taking off my helmet.  I picked him up, then her, then put her in his car and we beat feet for the vet he was just coming home from.  Doc says she's A-OK, so it isn't as bad as it could have been).

And a few other things besides.

 

You folks have fun.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh- and there are now only 116 Resource Kits left in stock.

 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

@Duke Bushido, the pamphlet on the Resource kit isn’t the rules though. It’s just a summary of the costs of Powers, Skills, and Characteristics. It doesn’t explain how they work (or don’t). 

[Duke Bushido]

5 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@Duke Bushido, the pamphlet on the Resource kit isn’t the rules though. It’s just a summary of the costs of Powers, Skills, and Characteristics. It doesn’t explain how they work (or don’t). 

 

That's true enough, amd why I recommended having someone on tap who knows the system.  With a quick run through with an experienced player, this thing is way more useful than H2P ever will be.

 

I had, at one time, a sheet of laminated cardstock on the table to address this.  Essentially it was a list od missing mechanics:

 

Killing Attacks

Nirmal attacks

Mental powers

Adjustement powers

 

You know the drill. 

 

Listing just the base mechanics kept it tight, and made the whole thing more useful.  I was going to make another one when the youth group came along, but it turned out to not be necessary- they borroed a couple of my table copies of the 2e rules (you may recall that I have a lot of 2e books) and by the next session, they had it pretty well down.  Character-building finesse takes practice, of course; no amount of reading the rules will give you that.

 

 

 

[Cygnia]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Nirmal attacks

Nermal attacks?!

[Sketchpad]

On 12/27/2023 at 6:27 PM, fdw3773 said:

I noticed that in recent years Chaosium relaunched its classic role-playing games in conjunction with updated versions of others. Of note was Super World, which I heard a lot of good things about in reflecting the style and feel of the superhero genre. I also came across similar reviews for its fantasy themed RPGs. More recently, Chaosium has released Basic Role Playing, which is arguably the counterpart to the core system rule book published by Hero Games.

 

How is Chaosium Basic Role Playing compared to Hero System? I haven't read Chaosium Basic Role Playing or games under that system like Super World yet, but previously ran Pendragon (1st Ed.) many years ago, so I have some familiarity with Chaosium products.

 

I snagged the new BRP book when it came out and have enjoyed the read. It does have a "powers" section that covers a few types of magic, psychic abilities, mutations, and super powers. I always thought Superworld, as a concept, had a lot of potential. BRP is a fairly simple system to pick up, with most rolls being d% (with crits being 1/2 and 1/5 of the original roll IIRC). For me, the original Superworld was trying to reinvent the wheel a bit, and seemed a bit incomplete even with the SW Companion. The art was fun, the layout was easy to read, but there just seemed to be something missing. The section in the new BRP books is just a smattering of rules which lays a basic foundation. Like Hero, there's possibilities to build a score of super abilities based on the powers given, but it could use more. I know Steve Perrin had been working on a new Superworld before his passing, which I hope Chaosium manages to eventually publish.

[assault]

If you want to see what the BRP system can do, check out Stormbringer and its spinoffs. The earlier versions weren't balanced, but that was intentional. In a word: Elric.

 

For SF, check out Ringworld. Unfortunately it's focused on those specific books, but you could probably run a Known Space game with it. It's a bit more complex than I prefer though.

 

And of course there is Call of Cthulhu. There have been various supplements that could form the basis of an interesting Pulp fantasy game. Clark Ashton Smith? Even Lord Dunsany if you try. C L Moore"s Jirel of Joiry stories would probably work too.

 

To me the main interest of Superworld is its half developed point system. I'd use it as spare parts rather than trying to play it.

Edited December 30, 2023 by assault

[Christopher R Taylor]

Call of Cthulhu is kind of a beast of its own; the simple system works really well for that setting because its less about mechanics (let's face it you're hopeless in combat anyway) than atmosphere and role play.

[assault]

A Terrible Thought: what if there were Cthulhu-oid horrors called the Young Ones? Could you deal with the horror of Rick, Vyvyan, Neil and Mike? (Spelling according to Wikipedia.)

Edited December 30, 2023 by assault

[L. Marcus]

The Young Ones are a pretty good fit for Warhammer's Chaos Gods...

[Rich McGee]

6 hours ago, assault said:

For SF, check out Ringworld. Unfortunately it's focused on those specific books, but you could probably run a Known Space game with it. It's a bit more complex than I prefer though.

It's also been out of print for decades, the license lapsed long ago so it can't be sold in pdf, and physical copies regularly list for over $200 on the used market.  Even if you are a huge fan of Niven, it was published in 1984 so it only covers the first two books in the quartet, and the five-book Fleet of Worlds series that ties in so heavily was over twenty years off yet.  What was a reasonably complete boxed set when new feels dated in 2023. 

 

Similar problems apply to getting a look at most of Chaosium's licensed games, including the Moorcock titles, Thieves' World and Elfquest.  No cheap pdfs, and hellish prices used.

 

If you want a more accessible set of BRP-related rules, a look through the Design Mechanism's Mythras range might be helpful.  There's a solid review of the system here and there are scifi and literary fantasy (ie Jack Vance's Lyonesse) spinoffs.  There's even a superhero version called Destined that Superworld fans might be interested in, although I confess I haven't seen that one in person.  Like so many RPGs these days, the line is not well-distributed to US stores anymore.

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Call of Cthulhu is kind of a beast of its own; the simple system works really well for that setting because its less about mechanics (let's face it you're hopeless in combat anyway) than atmosphere and role play.

 

Back in high school and early university, we played a lot of three games - Champions, D&D and Call of Cthulhu.

 

One observation that came from those days was that character creation was inversely proportional to lethality.  A Champions character was a lot of work to create, but the system made them very tough to kill, rather than KO.  D&D was quicker, and character death was also a more significant possibility.  Cal of Cthulhu? Characters had to be quick to create as you'd be making a lot of them.  As I recall, it was the original Shadows of Yog-Sothoth that opened with the comment that the characters should be fairly experienced - no more than half should be brand-new.

[Michael Hopcroft]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:33 AM, Cygnia said:

Nermal attacks?!

Looks like you've mailed him to Abu Dhabi one too many times, Garfield. Now you must pay...

[Rich McGee]

22 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

One observation that came from those days was that character creation was inversely proportional to lethality.

An exception:  LBB Traveller had a fairly involved character generation process (including what was arguably the first "life path" system in the industry) but was not only quite deadly during play, it could even shortcut things by occasionally killing you during creation.