Villain In Name Only

[Steve]

Who would you consider a “villain in name only?” Someone who acts like a villain but doesn’t really do anything all that bad. Like Gru from Despicable Me, Megamind or Doofenshmirtz from Phineas and Ferv.

 

in the Champions Universe, I’m thinking that Foxbat would qualify.

 

Any other ideas?

Edited January 21 by Steve

[Mark Rand]

Maybe a vigilante cat burglar who only goes after the truly evil.

[Stanley Teriaca]

CLOWN, at least most of the time.

[Lord Liaden]

The Champions Universe has quite a few of them: the whole teams of the Cirque Sinister and GRAB (in it for the money, try not to hurt anyone); likewise Arachne, Cateran, Cybermind, Lady Blue (who actually does the Robin Hood thing), Lash, Lodestone, Signal Ghost, Vixen; zany goofs like Bulldozer, Foxbat, El Salto, or Zigzag. (You'll find the first two in Champions Villains Vol. Two, and the rest in Vol. 3.)

[Stanley Teriaca]

Of course we have of share of both ends of the spectrum. For every bonified killer villain we have a not really evil villain.

[AlgaeNymph]

Because I'm me, I'd like to bring up the edge case of Istvatha V'han.  General Sherman-style tactics aside, the Empire's a pretty good place to live if you're okay with aggressive NATO/NPR politics.  Certainly raises the question of who would rebel against cultural preservation, anti-corruption, abolitionism, and technologically improved living standards.  (Hint: rebels generally aren't like the Rebellion from Star Wars.  Think more Rambo 3.)  I suspect a lot of folks from Earth-1346 c.2017 wouldn't have minded her administration.  I wonder how the Champions felt when the world leaders of the time gave their heartfelt regards.  If nothing else, I suspect Sapphire'd be feeling like Nighthawk at that point.

[Lord Liaden]

What you give up in exchange for all those unquestionable benefits which V'han's rule brings, is the right to disagree with her. Ever. You cannot object to her, you cannot criticize her, without harsh punishment. Actually fighting against her risks terrible retribution not just on the combatants. Istvatha has depopulated regions, destroyed worlds, eradicated entire sapient species.

 

Steve's original post was about "villains" who never really do anything "bad." Can we actually say that about Istvatha V'han?

 

BTW I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "aggressive NATO/NPR politics." Would you mind elaborating? (Unless it's something that would be safer to put in the Politics thread.)

Edited January 22 by Lord Liaden

[AlgaeNymph]

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

BTW I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "aggressive NATO/NPR politics." Would you mind elaborating?

Not at all.

 

The NATO part is due to how the Empire's run.  Polities are pretty much allowed local autonomy, but the Empire's principles are ruthlessly enforced.  The NPR part is said principles, i.e., the ones Istvatha grew up with when she was still a YA protagonist: left-center, and lots of human interest.

 

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

You cannot object to her, you cannot criticize her, without harsh punishment.

Book of the Empress kinda goers back and forth on that.  It mentions she's willing to humor debates (Knowledge: politics; p.25), as well as permitting disagreement among her courtiers (p.162).  That doesn't mean she'll change her mind, stubborn and overconfident as she is, just that she won't enact collective punishment for saying "that's a bad idea, here're reasons X, Y, and Z."  Her response to dissent is proportional (Integration; p.182), and there are even former rebels who now work for her (see: Abraxas, p.40).

 

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Steve's original post was about "villains" who never really do anything "bad." Can we actually say that about Istvatha V'han?

No, I suppose not...  Like I said, edge case.  I suppose I am a bit much "why Lyndon Johnson's Mongol Horde was good, actually." 

 

 

In that case, I'll...just put in my support for Lady Blue.  ^_^;

Edited January 22 by AlgaeNymph

[wcw43921]

Lady Blue is what came immediately to my mind.  The CU's version of Robin Hood and a versatile powerset to boot, it was mentioned in the 4th Edition adventure "Day Of The Destroyer" that she took on a couple of supervillains that were working for Destroyer.  Definitely would be a hero were she not working outside the law, and I imagine she sees herself as a hero.

(Kudos to Lord Liaden for mentioning her first. )

[Stanley Teriaca]

I forgotten, is she in 6ed? (Lady Blue that is...another grey female supervillain Ladybug isn't if I remember correctly.)

[Lord Liaden]

Lady Blue is indeed in 6E, in Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains. We haven't seen Ladybug since Classic Enemies for 4E -- another overlooked Canadian.

 

Edited January 22 by Lord Liaden

[Rich McGee]

16 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

We haven't seen Ladybug since Classic Enemies for 4E -- another overlooked Canadian.

I can't recall her at all beyond her supranym, was she a Francophone by any chance?  Asking mostly because the hero Ladybug from that Miraculous cartoon is as French as French gets, and it would be an interesting coincidence.

[Lord Liaden]

Nope. Sandra Anderson, a graduate of the University of Toronto.

[Stanley Teriaca]

Ladybug was a armored suit wielder.

[pawsplay]

Magneto. He's just right. Of course, he is a "villain" because of his extreme actions in the cause, but then again, nothing he does is more extreme than what the other side is doing to him. Like most figures in a genuine resistance, he recognizes that battle lines are often arbitrarily. Even in his oldest, most cartoonish versions, he just comes across more as a vigilante, partisan, and/or anti-hero than an actual villain.

[Lord Liaden]

Magneto is another "edge case" as AlgaeNymph put it. A lot depends on which incarnation of Magneto we're talking about, he's varied a lot over the years. The most extreme versions have thought nothing of murdering large numbers of "normals" who get in his way. His vision of the world is one in which a minority rule the majority due to an accident of birth. There's also the question of how much of the harsh reaction toward mutants is provoked by the actions of Magneto and other mutants like him.

 

But no "villain" sees themselves as a villain unless it's as some form of mental illness. They always have a rationale justifying their actions to themselves, however twisted it may seem to the rest of us. It should be noted that one of Magneto's biggest motivations is ego. He sees mutants as his people in need of protection, but he has not doubt he's the one who should lead them. When they're elevated to their "rightful place" as rulers of the Earth, he expects to be their ruler. And he'll brook no questioning of that, no dissenting opinion. If you're not with him, you're against him, even if you're a mutant. In his own eyes Magneto is a king, a god, and a messiah, and the position he aspires to is his due.

[Steve]

The Submariner would be similar to Magneto, in that it depends on the presentation. Sometimes a hero and sometimes a villain. I vaguely recall his more antisocial episodes had some kind of biological explanation for them offered up in a past storyline.

 

I was really focused on the types of “villains” like Lady Blue and Foxbat, who are on that side of the fence but don’t really do anything all that bad.

[Lord Liaden]

 

[Stanley Teriaca]

Do you find it odd that most "villains in name only" are female characters who can be reformed? There is one teenage boy villain in Villains Volume 3 who is a doesn't want to be a villain, and a pseudo accidental villain in the homeless mutant called Death (IHA book), and those are the few new unwilling villains I know of who are guys.

 

Of course, depending on how s/he is played, Tenderheart from Dark Champions can also be a reformable villain, if one can downplay hir almost stalker personality somewhat.

[Lord Liaden]

If we're sticking with published official villains, I can think of a few more males. Off the top of my head: Firedrake was a mutant with fire powers who was kidnapped by the IHA for study, but escaped. Since he saw famous politicians in the camp where he was held, he figured the authorities wouldn't protect him, so he joined VIPER. He was made an experimental subject for Dr. Timothy Blank, and Blank's Coil-Gene treatment let him shape-shift into a virtual dragon. Blank took Firedrake with him when he became King Cobra and left VIPER, but Firedrake wasn't enslaved to King Cobra's will like the other Coil-Gene mutates, and only pretends to be loyal to the King until he can figure out some alternative.

 

Geos is another mutant, this one with earth-control powers, kidnapped and brainwashed by VIPER into serving them. A blow to the head during a mission weakened the brainwashing and restored his original decent personality, but much of his memory is lost. Geos knows both law enforcement and VIPER are after him, so he stays on the run, committing robberies only to survive.

 

Grotesk is a victim of the sadistic "biokinetic" villain called Fleshtone, who warped his body into a hideous mockery of humanity. A side-effect of the transformation imbued the poor man with superhuman strength and durability. Grotesk was so traumatized by his experience that he believes he's become something inhuman, that no right-thinking person would want to be around. He commits crimes and works for other villains to accumulate the means to live a half-decent life.

 

Firedrake was written up for 5E in Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth and Evil Unleashed, while the other two are in Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains. I can probably find others, but I'm a bit too tired to look tonight. 🥱

[Mr. R]

OK I am going into history back.

 

The Fox.  A teleporting thief.  He's basically Danny Ocean (Ocean's Eleven) with super powers.  He'll form a crew to rob something, but usually try to be non violent.  

 

Also Thunder and Lightning.  A husband-wife duo who were caught, outed, forced to serve as law enforcement, and now that they have done their time, find a normal life impossible.  They commit crimes just to maintain a middle class life style.  Basically Blue collar criminals.

 

Finally I am going to go out on a limb and say Firewing.  Yeah he wants a good fight.  Yeah he'll throw down just to prove himself tougher.  But on the whole he's not a conqueror, and can even be persuaded to fight on your side IF you can appeal to his sense of honour!

[Lawnmower Boy]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:25 PM, Lord Liaden said:

Nope. Sandra Anderson, a graduate of the University of Toronto.

Enough to make anyone a super villain. Go Blues!

[pawsplay]

11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Magneto is another "edge case" as AlgaeNymph put it. A lot depends on which incarnation of Magneto we're talking about, he's varied a lot over the years. The most extreme versions have thought nothing of murdering large numbers of "normals" who get in his way. His vision of the world is one in which a minority rule the majority due to an accident of birth. There's also the question of how much of the harsh reaction toward mutants is provoked by the actions of Magneto and other mutants like him.

 

But no "villain" sees themselves as a villain unless it's as some form of mental illness. They always have a rationale justifying their actions to themselves, however twisted it may seem to the rest of us. It should be noted that one of Magneto's biggest motivations is ego. He sees mutants as his people in need of protection, but he has not doubt he's the one who should lead them. When they're elevated to their "rightful place" as rulers of the Earth, he expects to be their ruler. And he'll brook no questioning of that, no dissenting opinion. If you're not with him, you're against him, even if you're a mutant. In his own eyes Magneto is a king, a god, and a messiah, and the position he aspires to is his due.

 

I agree in the general, but pretty much all of this applies to Xavier as well. He's a mind-controlling authoritarian with a slightly different vision of what the future looks like. And his vision happens to be wrong. Idealistic, hypocritical, impractical, dangerous, and predicated on the use of extreme force to enforce peace. He has a worse record than Magneto in terms of recruiting child soldiers, and considers himself completely above and outside human law, which is why Magneto finds him ridiculous.

 

Magneto is indeed a cultic figure... but it's hard to see him as a "villain." He's a resistance fighter, an arrogant, ruthless one who has discarded seeing his enemy as worthy of compassion. But he is fighting the war he was given, not the one he chose, and all of his aims are actually well-intentioned. In fact, he pities humans, because he knows that rationally, they should see mutants as replacements. People with powers will win. And Magneto is probably correct in thinking mutants need a strong leader in order to avoid turning their powers on each other and slagging the Earth. So.

 

When you factor in Xaxier's use of fourteen year old assets, and his non-consensual use of mind-reading and mind control, I can barely see daylight between him and Magneto.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Mr. R said:

OK I am going into history back.

 

The Fox.  A teleporting thief.  He's basically Danny Ocean (Ocean's Eleven) with super powers.  He'll form a crew to rob something, but usually try to be non violent.  

 

 

In fact, per Champions Villains Volume Two p. 124, The Fox of Crime is the secret patron of the super-thief team, GRAB, in current official continuity. Per his history in that book, the Fox was active during the Seventies and Eighties, but age diminished his teleportation and physical abilities, forcing him to retire. GRAB lets him stay "in the game" without risk to himself. The members of GRAB still don't know who their mysterious backer is, but their crimes are smoother and more profitable than ever, so they don't complain.

[Stanley Teriaca]

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

In fact, per Champions Villains Volume Two p. 124, The Fox of Crime is the secret patron of the super-thief team, GRAB, in current official continuity. Per his history in that book, the Fox was active during the Seventies and Eighties, but age diminished his teleportation and physical abilities, forcing him to retire. GRAB lets him stay "in the game" without risk to himself. The members of GRAB still don't know who their mysterious backer is, but their crimes are smoother and more profitable than ever, so they don't complain.

While not official, the Fox of Crime is one of the leaders in @tiger's version of CLOWN . This is of course a still younger version of the character, and incompatible with the official version. But...it can work if you view the CLOWN version as a relative of the original Fox, maybe a grandson who is working with the original's training and blessing. Think Champions version of Lupin the 3rd.