Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

I don't know about you' date=' but most GMs in my experience auto-default to the +20 level for mental attacks because they don't want to deal with it in the middle of a combat. So even against EGO only, most heroes/villians will have 13-15 so you need 33 or more to get anything done.[/quote']

 

10d6 will average 35 points.

And as others have said, brute force mentalism doesn't work well. Go for the subtle: "Attack the brick", Illusion of UNTIL heavy weapons squad targeting them, and always remember that mental powers come with invisibility to normal sight for free.

[Egyptoid]

Back on topic

 

your PC looks like this:

[Zed-F]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

Here's one: a heroic version of Teleios. And I don't mean "tone down the characteristics and you can have an approximation"' date=' either. I mean "the Perfect Man", [i']as defined by the CU as written[/i],* as a PC. The characteristics alone cost 318 points, not counting skills, etc. Even dropping the VPP, it's still a 500+ point character that is otherwise generally (not perfectly) compatible with the Standard Superhero power level.Minor tweaks could make the character a better fit for the power level, but reducing the character to 350 points would violate concept.

 

Why would this be an acceptable hero? One example should suffice: Michael Holt, aka Mr Terrific, in the current incarnation of the JSA. While you might be able to do a "Mr Terrific-ish" character on 350 points, that charcter would not have the relative standing in the CU that Mr Terrific had in the DCU at his introduction (gaming equivalent: at the beginning of the game campaign). While the JSA is arguably not at the Standard Superhero power level overall, Mr. Terrific could easily fit that power level in the CU, but not the starting point total for that power level, unless his abilities were diluted in breadth and/or (relative to the power level) depth.

 

*If your house rules/interpretation of what it means to be "the Perfect Man" differ, fine. But the common ground for discussion is the standard published setting as published. Practically everybody has differences from that standard in their own gaming, which makes discussions based on local preferences ultimately meaningless unless the discussion is about local preferences.

 

You know, the rule book does have a variety of starting point levels for different power level games. I'd suggest that a character designed to hang out with the JSA probably shouldn't be using the detault standard superhero basis from that list.

 

You can have a 700-point starting superhero for a cosmic level game just as easily as you can have a 450- or 600-point basis for high powered supers that aren't quite cosmic, or 350-point starting superhero for a 'standard' supers game, or 250 for low-powered street level.

 

In fact, you can make up whatever point basis you like to suit your game, and the rulebook encourages you to do so.

 

So I don't get where all the angst over point totals is coming from. *shrug*

[Zed-F]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

I don't know about you' date=' but most GMs in my experience auto-default to the +20 level for mental attacks because they don't want to deal with it in the middle of a combat. So even against EGO only, most heroes/villians will have 13-15 so you need 33 or more to get anything done.[/quote']

 

I'd have to agree this is a GM problem, not a rule problem. If you are a clever mentalist and you play to your opponents' mental vulnerabilities well, you should be at least as effective as any blaster.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Back on topic

 

your PC looks like this:

One Champions game I was in had a villain who looked like that. He was quite a real, if comical, threat.

[DocMan]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

I'd have to agree this is a GM problem' date=' not a rule problem. If you are a clever mentalist and you play to your opponents' mental vulnerabilities well, you should be at least as effective as any blaster.[/quote']

 

I always try to play the clever mentalist, but I've only been in less than the +20 zone once. That one was memorable. I was trying to deal with a stretching villain. A rubbergirl. Psi Lord looked her in the eye, said "Pyrokinesis!" and promptly hit her with a mental illusion that she was on fire. She melted. Turns out that she had a vulnerability to fire and a fear of fire. Because I planted the idea in her head with the spoken word, I got down to the +10 category. Her fears gave me a bonus, and the vulnerability magnified the effect.

 

Fine, my GM makes it really tough to be a mentalist. Especially since most baddies have some level of mental defense.

 

Doc

[Asperion]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

Since this thread has been derailed, lets carry it a little further -

 

The concept that I have always have had the most trouble with was not the mentalist since there are several inbuilt controls that balance them with other archetypes. However the cosmic controller has very true balances so they can very quickly knock the game out of balance and become the master of anything that he tries. This is because has will (almost) always possess a VPP with few limits so anything that whatever he wants to do he can get some form of modification for. If challenging a brick, boost his strength and defenses, a mentalist will grant mental defense and psi-attacks, a blaster will use appropriate counter-measures. This makes him to be greater than the typical jack-of-all-trades.

 

Lets see anyone prove me wrong on the observation.

[Peregrine]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

You know, the rule book does have a variety of starting point levels for different power level games. I'd suggest that a character designed to hang out with the JSA probably shouldn't be using the detault standard superhero basis from that list.

 

You can have a 700-point starting superhero for a cosmic level game just as easily as you can have a 450- or 600-point basis for high powered supers that aren't quite cosmic, or 350-point starting superhero for a 'standard' supers game, or 250 for low-powered street level.

 

In fact, you can make up whatever point basis you like to suit your game, and the rulebook encourages you to do so.

 

So I don't get where all the angst over point totals is coming from. *shrug*

 

You seem to have hit on my point from a tangential angle. The idea that all Standard Superhero power level characters (for example) should and must start at 350 points is what I am challenging. I am also challenging the oft-repeated claim that any concept can be adequately built on 350 points. I have illustrated that a legitimate concept that can otherwise be built to the Standard Superhero power level cannot be so built on only 350 points, in order to present the same idea you have - that starting point totals for a given power level are not graven in stone; I am also going further by pointing out that starting point levels are not sufficient for some concepts that would be otherwise appropriate to the power level, especially at Standard Superhero.

 

And yeah, I think I derailed the heck out of this one...

[bubba smith]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

if your adventures are always being derailed

[Zed-F]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

I am also challenging the oft-repeated claim that any concept can be adequately built on 350 points.

I think the usual claim is that you can build any concept in Hero, not that you can do it on 350 points.

 

I've occasionally seen people argue that you can build an 'early version' of most comic-book supers on 350 points, but for some characters whose first appearance was at a high power level, that early version might be a version of the character that never actually appeared in the comics.

 

That said, I do think most concepts can be adequately built on 350 points... for certain values of adequate. I don't think you're trying to argue against the possibility of approximating a character for less points than a full build would take, though, so I'll leave it at that.

[Zed-F]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

... they can't eat their Wheaties because they have trouble picking up the box.

[pinecone]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

... they can't eat their Wheaties because they have trouble picking up the box.

 

They can't use spoons because of their code vs kill...what? vs them a spoon is a deadly weapon....

[DocMan]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

... they can't fight their way out of a thread tangent on the Hero Boards!

 

Doc

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

The only "movement" power your character has is preceeded by the word "bowel."

 

Your "secure team radio" is a pair of tin cans with a string between them.

 

Your arch-nemesis is a bottle with a childproof cap.

 

Hunted (11-) by Girls Scouts (MoPow, NCI). 'Nuff said.

[Peregrine]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

I think the usual claim is that you can build any concept in Hero' date=' not that you can do it on 350 points.[/quote']

 

I'd make that specific claim myself, though some concepts are deucedly hard to do, especially anything pertaining to ...

 

invulnerability

 

 

I've occasionally seen people argue that you can build an 'early version' of most comic-book supers on 350 points, but for some characters whose first appearance was at a high power level, that early version might be a version of the character that never actually appeared in the comics.

 

That said, I do think most concepts can be adequately built on 350 points... for certain values of adequate. I don't think you're trying to argue against the possibility of approximating a character for less points than a full build would take, though, so I'll leave it at that.

 

I'm arguing that such an approximation would be exactly that, an approximation, not a full rendition of the source character. So you read me right.

 

And I'm arguing less about power level and more about point totals at a given power level; e.g., 350 points @ Standard Superhero power level can't cover some Standard Superhero power level concepts. A key part of my position is the idea that starting points do not define power level. Power level is officially defined as typical range on primary characteristics, SPD, CV, DC, Active Points per power, Skill Points spent, Skill Rolls, and DEF/rDEF. The point totals given for each power level represents a starting character at that level, one that is intended to be a "beginner", and develop through the expenditure of experience points - the "early version" you refer to.

 

If I'm playing in a Standard Superheroic game, I might not want to play an "early version" of my character; similarly, I might want to play a character who has the depth of ability defined for the Standard Superhero power level, but a greater breadth of ability. And 350 points does not suffice for such characters.

[Peregrine]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

... they can't fight their way out of a thread tangent on the Hero Boards!

 

Doc

 

BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!

 

Hammer, meet head-of-nail!

 

(And I'm the worst offender in this thread...)

[assault]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

I've occasionally seen people argue that you can build an 'early version' of most comic-book supers on 350 points, but for some characters whose first appearance was at a high power level, that early version might be a version of the character that never actually appeared in the comics.

 

I'm one of the people who would argue the first part.

 

I wouldn't go with the second. Basically, if it never appeared in the source material, it's not a "real" version of the character.

 

On the other hand, characters inspired by such characters are perfectly legitimate too.

 

One of these days I would like to see the first couple of stories the Spectre appeared in, just to see if an early/low-point version of him would be possible!

 

There are a lot of characters whose fluff text is a lot more impressive than their actual demonstrated abilities, incidentally. This is why I'm not overwhelmed by the Mr Terrific argument.

 

Rogue is an example of a character that is genuinely difficult to build on the same point total as her teammates. That is, if she was to be built as a PC! She can be easily enough built as an NPC - the GM knows whose powers she is likely to mimic, and NPCs aren't subject to point budgets anyway!

[assault]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

If I'm playing in a Standard Superheroic game' date=' I might not want to play an "early version" of my character; similarly, I might want to play a character who has the depth of ability defined for the Standard Superhero power level, but a greater breadth of ability. And 350 points does not suffice for such characters.[/quote']

 

In which case you're out of luck.

 

Basically, a particular points total is the budget you have to build your character. If you can't build the character you want on that total, pick another character conception.

 

The actual minimum power levels for a "Standard Superheroic" character aren't all that flash, BTW. With 350 points you can afford a fair degree of flexibility if you really want it. Or you can buy a bunch of skills or skill levels, or whatever else takes your fancy. You just can't buy everything.

 

Actually, I'm prone to overdesign characters myself. I quite regularly wish I had more points to build a character at the power level I want them to be at. But there is another problem there: you can equally spend those extra points boosting a character's raw power level.

 

So 450 or 600 starting point characters are going to have the same issues as 350 point characters.

 

Personally, I try to build characters on 250 points, and reluctantly expand them to 350 if necessary. The main difference between the two is usually Damage Reduction, which converts a "street level" character into one who can hang out with the Justice League.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

Hunted (11-) by Girls Scouts (MoPow, NCI). 'Nuff said.

Are you kidding? Those girls... if you don't buy the cookies, they're -

 

*is found three days later with a thin-mint over each eye as a warning*

[Peregrine]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

In which case you're out of luck.

 

Basically, a particular points total is the budget you have to build your character. If you can't build the character you want on that total, pick another character conception.

 

That's kinda my point. Some concepts can't be built on 350 points, even if they fit the rest of the parameters for Standard Superheroic. So if the only reason they can't be played is that 350 points can't cover the build, then maybe 350 points is not universally appropriate for all Standard Superheroic games.

 

The actual minimum power levels for a "Standard Superheroic" character aren't all that flash' date=' BTW. With 350 points you can afford a fair degree of flexibility if you really want it. Or you can buy a bunch of skills or skill levels, or whatever else takes your fancy. You just can't buy everything.[/quote']

 

But with experience points, over time, you can, if the game lasts long enough, without exceeding the power level. Which is the source of my point that 350 points is a starting character, analogous to a 1st level D&D character, and some concepts don't fit that model.

 

The point totals associated with a given power level do not define that power level, they define a starting point for characters at that power level, a starting point from which the characters are expected to grow within the parameters of the power level through the expenditure of earned experience.

 

Actually, I'm prone to overdesign characters myself. I quite regularly wish I had more points to build a character at the power level I want them to be at. But there is another problem there: you can equally spend those extra points boosting a character's raw power level.

 

So 450 or 600 starting point characters are going to have the same issues as 350 point characters.

 

Which is what the parameters of the power levels address. You can build a 600 point character at the Standard Superheroic power level. That character would have a great breadth of abilities, the depth of which would not exceed the parameters of the Standard Superheroic power level.

[Peregrine]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

Are you kidding? Those girls... if you don't buy the cookies, they're -

 

*is found three days later with a thin-mint over each eye as a warning*

 

http://www.galactanet.com/comic/view.php?strip=161

 

And following. Meet Don Cindy, of the Girl Scout Mafia.

 

(Index of strips: http://galactanet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57)

[Zed-F]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

That's kinda my point. Some concepts can't be built on 350 points' date=' even if they fit the rest of the parameters for Standard Superheroic. So if the only reason they can't be played is that 350 points can't cover the build, then maybe 350 points is not universally appropriate for all Standard Superheroic games. [/quote']

 

I'd say, don't get over hung up on the word Standard and make it a High-powered game then.

 

Really, the guidelines are just that, guidelines. Tweak them however you see fit, and don't worry about what someone else is doing in their own game, or how they define 'Standard'.

 

That said, if you want to play in someone else's game, you have to work with their definition of Standard. If you have a character that you think is Standard but doesn't fit their guidelines... you either switch concepts or switch games. And that's not really a problem, IMHO.

[bubba smith]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

could we get back on topic please

[Karmakaze]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

...your team "danger room" scenarios involve training in advanced techniques like "hiding behind the couch".

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if...

 

...your team "danger room" looks uncannily like the team refrigerator....