Richard Logue Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Eurostar. Masters of Evil. Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. Legion of Doom. Los Asesinos. Grab. Countless others... What makes a good villain team? Not necessarily a successful one, but one that's good. In the comics, the heroes generally prevail, but the good villain teams are enjoyable to read. They're the ones that make the story When you build "this week's villain team," how do you form them? Your methods, I mean. What makes them good? Unifying theme? Strong leader? Snazzy team name? Certain power sets? Obviously the answers will vary on many many factors, but how do you come up with the design? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengal Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 One thing to remember when you construct a villain team is, they don't necessarily have to be competant as individuals as long as they cover each others' weaknesses. I made a team with no name, kind of a mishmash of guys recruited by a would-be master villain names Meester Easter (Master of Hide-and-Seek). The other characters in the group were equally gonzo and feeble, but as a group, they matched up well with the heroes- especially with the incredibly hard-to-target Meester Easter popping up and aiding his teammates and blasting the heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 i dont think I do anything in particular necessarily. I usually try to form a group that all have a unifying hatred of the hero team (whether the whole team or just a parcticular member, as long as they hate something about those do-gooders, it works for me). Usually I like a good, strong, intelligent leader who can keep any bickering to a minimum. I also like to have characters whose strengths offset another's weakness. Say a wizard and technological genius, or a strong offensive guy and a defensive guy. The only thing I do in particular is try to make a 7 (if the opposing hero squad is small) or 13 (if the hero group is larger, any NPC heros included). I am a bit guilty of liking 13 because I was a fan of the Legion of Doom (I kept hoping they would win). If it wasnt for the evil Hanna-Barbera "kidyfying" of it. They would have rocked. Though I also like keeping that mastermind/leader guy I mentioned in the first paragraph hidden from all but me for a while. HAHAHA (still working on evil laugh;) ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Variety of ways to do it. I like unified theme groups a lot, so that's what I usually make. Easier to make five variations on one theme than come up with five completely unique ideas. Collection of arch-enemies. Sinister Six, Injustice League, folks like that. All foes of particular hero or group of heroes, band together. Cool, but harder to do in a campaign unless you get a lot of solo-play time to really set up the individual nemesis for each hero. Collection by leader. Most of the Champions groups fall into this category, and various of the Masters of Evil, Frightful Four, etc incarnations as well. Leader-type or master villain gets specific villains or whoever he can get his hands on to join the group. What I like seeing in villain groups is: -Interesting leader. If the one in charge bores me, it's hard for the rest to make up for it. Even if the one in charge is a dork, if he has cool plots, it may save it. -Mix of personalities/secondary motivations. If they all act the same, it's boring. -More unusual powers, esp. powers that really require a team to be effective - wouldn't function well as a solo villain. Few villains in groups should be well-rounded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 I like to start with a clear objective and modus operandi for the villain team. IMO you should be able to describe what the team is "about" in one sentence. Let's take GRAB, for example: "GRAB are super-powered thieves who want to get as rich as they can with as little risk to themselves and harm to others as possible." Or Eurostar: "Eurostar are terrorists attempting to unite Europe under their rule, by destroying the continent's existing institutions through sabotage, murder and whatever other means necessary." I also try to make the members of the team interesting to me as individuals, such that I enjoy playing them. If it's a pleasure for me to run them that usually translates into greater "zest" in their interactions with the PCs, making them more memorable for the players as well, and more likely to be welcomed as recurring foes. One thing to watch out for, though, is becoming so enamored of your villains that you never want the PC heroes to finally defeat them. The heroes are supposed to be the focus of the game, after all, and players get frustrated if they realize you'll never allow them to win. It's okay if the villains get away a few times or score an occasional victory if that's part of setting up the heroes' ultimate triumph - victory is all the sweeter if it's hard-earned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Have to agree with Supreme Serpent. a mix of personalities make them much more interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 I've always liked the teams that have some sort of theme, like the Wrecking Crew (personification of construction machines), or the Royal Flush Gang (Jack through Ace of Spades) or even the Injustice League (Completely f#@king worthless losers unite!). The Supergroup theory is fun once in a while (Sinister Six), and gets that immediate burst of interest, but they rarely last very long. Like pro wrestling, the best teams are the ones created to be teams. Pro wrestling analogy...how cool is that?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengal Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 The Wrecking Crew, despite being four characters with almost the same powers (and a pretty lame schtick, at that), are a blast to see, since you know the heroes can just whup up on them as much as they want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 They (the Crew) can also be credible threats to some heroes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levi Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 I always felt like Bulldozer was ripe for a "Wrecking Crew" of his very own to bully around and flex with. A team of low-powered Bricks could be difficult for a typical Hero Group to contend with due to their consistently high DEF, CON & STUN values...any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Originally posted by levi I always felt like Bulldozer was ripe for a "Wrecking Crew" of his very own to bully around and flex with. A team of low-powered Bricks could be difficult for a typical Hero Group to contend with due to their consistently high DEF, CON & STUN values...any ideas? Yeah, I've teamed up Bulldozer, Piledriver & Sledge along with a homegrown "Jackhammer". Later on they were added to a group of EP's (Fire and Ice plus several homegrown) and became the "Masters of Disaster". Players liked them both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rechan Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Unifying themes work, BUT you have to be very paticular or else it just doesn't work. The Royal Flush gang is a good example; it's a family, a club, and they slowly adopt people into the gang. However, imagine a Multi-million Dollar Tycoon like Lex approaching superepowered villains. "Hello. I want you to destroy x team. I will pay you each a million dollars. And you will all be wearing animal costumes." Usually there has to be a unifying situation, like an industrial accident that makes similar themed powers for the entire group, or a bond, else it looks kinda gimicky (So, how is it that Four superheros with a Music Band theme just HAPPENED to get together?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Originally posted by Rechan However, imagine a Multi-million Dollar Tycoon like Lex approaching superepowered villains. "Hello. I want you to destroy x team. I will pay you each a million dollars. And you will all be wearing animal costumes." You know, this idea has potential. Of course I'm picturing big mascot-style animal costumes, which would definitely be fun! Actually, this reminded me somewhat of the Serpent Society. I thought they had potential, but it never seemed to truly work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 What? A gimmicky supervillain team? Egads, the very idea! When I run Champs (which admittedly isn't often anymore) I use villain teams for a few different reasons. For casual use I like "theme" teams tailored to the particular scenario. Especially when I'm running Golden Age, the theme can be anything at all (I once had a squad of nazi villains defending a mountaintop base, with silly a mountaintop theme using super-skis, snowshoes, etc.). If they're fun I'll reuse them in the future; otherwise they get tossed in the hoosegow and forgotten. My other main use for a villain team is to introduce lots of different villains into the campaign at one time. This winds up as more of a "Legion of Doom" setup, high-powered and fairly volatile. My aim is to have each villain make an impression on the PCs, then split the team up after their present caper is ended. Then they can appear in separate scenarios later on, more tailored to their themes and personalities, having already earned some recognition and credibility. (Such a villain team is particularly useful at the start of a Champs run, since it gives the players an idea of the basic directions I'm thinking about for my campaign, and also gives me an idea of what works and doesn't work for the group.) -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengal Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Originally posted by austenandrews My other main use for a villain team is to introduce lots of different villains into the campaign at one time. This winds up as more of a "Legion of Doom" setup, high-powered and fairly volatile. My aim is to have each villain make an impression on the PCs, then split the team up after their present caper is ended. Then they can appear in separate scenarios later on, more tailored to their themes and personalities, having already earned some recognition and credibility. (Such a villain team is particularly useful at the start of a Champs run, since it gives the players an idea of the basic directions I'm thinking about for my campaign, and also gives me an idea of what works and doesn't work for the group.) Wow... that is a pretty good idea. I'll be using it, and I probably won't give you credit for it. You know where to reach me for flames and lawsuits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Creating a good villain team is, in itself, a task not to mention creating good villains. When I create a team, the team has to have an objective purpose in the campaign or else I don't know what to do with them. ("Should I use this team to help someone steal a UNTIL prototype? Um, I don't know. Nah.") The team has to have a specific purpose and a specific goal, even if that goal is get rich. Even a general answer like 'Get rich' begs the question: How do they plan to get rich? I've built an entire team with the sole purpose of fighting a particular hero group. They are the hero group's antithesis and archenemies. (archenemy or archenemies?) They have only shown up to fight that one hero group, although after 2 or 3 years in real time existance, I finally had them meet a difference group. Boy, did I surprise the players! An enemy group can be 10+ in numbers or as few as two; it depends on the concept. As I mentioned in another forum, I have a duo villain team: Razor & Rage. It depends on the team and how they're created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 I'm getting kinda tired of seeing villain teams that have one each of the major archetypes usually composed of a brick, a martial artist, an EP, a mentalist and a speedster. I'd like to see that messed up with a bit. Like one brick and four mentalists, something weird like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 I have a team made up of a brick & three energy projectors. (But then it's just the standard Earth, Air, Ice, Fire type...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Originally posted by Bengal Wow... that is a pretty good idea. I'll be using it, and I probably won't give you credit for it. You know where to reach me for flames and lawsuits I demand 10% of all EPs given as a result of my idea. As Doug mentioned, I don't default to the generic role-filling patterns when building a villain team. I've had groups that are all bricks, all swashbucklers, etc. Of course I always try to make sure that they'll be an appropriate challenge to the PC team, but that doesn't imply a paint-by-numbers, cover-every-angle approach. In fact I like it when a particular PC can shine. Leaving a weakness can make the game more fun than if by rote I always have a mentalist to counter the PC wizard, a high-DEF guy to counter the PC brick, etc. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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