What Do You Want To See?: DEMON

[ChuckB]

To be honest , I liked the fact that DEMON was a high-tech/occult hybrid. It was one of the things that made it unique and not just another evil mystic cult.

 

Sounds like your mind is made up , but I'd reconsider that change.

[Supreme Serpent]

Originally posted by ChuckB

To be honest , I liked the fact that DEMON was a high-tech/occult hybrid. It was one of the things that made it unique and not just another evil mystic cult.

 

Sounds like your mind is made up , but I'd reconsider that change.

 

I'd like to add another yea to that as well. Force field belts, blaster rifles, etc are the modern superworld equivalents of armor/swords in ancient times, tommyguns&shotguns in pulp era, etc. While DEMON wouldn't normally go for the big tech plot or huge devices, groups of agents with the "standard" high tech gear of the day would be very reasonable.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

My thoughts....

 

A hefty dosage of Lovecraftian horrors, yes definitely. I get rather the impression that this is what's in mind with Qlipothic horrors and the Kings of Edom at any rate.

 

oh God NO. NO Lovecraftian Horrors. NO.

 

I'm willing to put up with it, if I get outvoted. But, any Lovecraftian stuff is going in the trash. I'd rather not have that be the whole book.

 

Ingredients from every line of tradition for evil magic, from every culture.

 

Some reasons for Champions GMs to purchase the Fantasy Hero Grimoire -- like, maybe that's where to find spells for some of the lesser Morbanes.[/b]

 

Good ideas, both of these.

 

Real, real evil. They're not out to just conquer the world, but to make it the ugliest place possible for everyone who doesn't believe as they do while feeding their own desires for pleasure. Unlike their combat operations, this wouldn't be limited to magical practices -- trading in slaves, especially sex slaves of all races and ages would be right up there at the top of the list. Imagine the reaction when heroes learn that the company they just uncovered making child pornography and snuff films is actually a front operation for something even worse.

 

And this is where I'd go with it, if I were writing for it. The world's a nasty, nasty place IRL, and having DEMON doing it's part to make the world that way would be my focus.

 

It's the "mystic crime" organization. That's got to mean something more than just "steal artifact to summon unspeakable horror for the supers to bitchslap around".

 

by the man himself:

the weirdly mystical with generous helpings of mephistophelian malevolence and over-the-top espionage action.[/b]

 

That sounds good. If you're talking about the different eras, and how to slot it in, then you emphasise different aspects.

 

In a Golden Age, you play up the weirdly mystical. In a Silver age, it's the over-the-top espionage. In an Iron age, you play up the mephistophelian malevolence.

 

D

[allen]

Lots of great suggestions... thanks everyone,and keep them coming.

 

Couple of brief comments:

 

Spell List, et al.: Well, there's going to be something -- some sort of framework for DEMON's standard magical inclinations, which will include spell write-ups. At least enough to get a GM who just purchased the book up and running. But it's not going to be (to my mind, at least) extensive. First, as Monolith pointed out, there are alot of resources out there already for spells. Second, this is isn't the Ultimate Mystic, and I think some of the suggestions here are more appropriate to that book.

 

Artifacts: Yes, both those the organization already possesses, and the ones it wants to possess.

 

"Lovecraftian": This word gets used quite a bit, especially in gaming. For me, it has a very specific meaning involving a certain kind of horror writing (man faced with the unknown, unknowable, and incomprehensible discovers traumatically, tragically -- and sometimes fatally -- that all he knows is wrong and he is entirely and completely insignificant in the grand scheme of things). While there'll be room for this in DEMON, it's still a supplement for superhero roleplaying and that sort of horror writing doesn't jibe with the superhero genre, as referred to in general parlance (which is different than an individual GM's use of the genre -- important distinction there).

 

All that said: what I mean by "weirdly mystical" is the mystic as portrayed in weird fiction which includes Lovecraft -- so yeah, "Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!".. *ahem*... sorry, bit carried away there.

 

"Deus Est Mortem, Omnes Nox": I'm not clear on the Latin. I haven't pulled out the Wheelock's yet, but "mortem" is from "mors, mortis" which I thought ment coprse, and for some reason it's in the accusitive -- I would've expected a participle of "morior." "Omnes" also looks strange to me -- 3rd declinsion adjective, "omnis, omnis, omne" -- so male/female plural accusitive, but i think it should be singular and nominitive (literarlly: whole/all of the world)... "Deus Est Mortuus; Omnis Nox." eh, my Latin is beyond rusty at this point, I'm afraid.

 

Is it a quote from something?

 

DEMON and other genres: There will definitely be a Genre-by-Genre section. And on a related note, suggestions for customizing DEMON to suit various ages of comics will also be there.

 

Concerning some of the "darker" stuff (i.e., snuff films, sex slaves): I don't find the grittier details of those kinds of activities appropriate to the superhero genre as presented in the Champions Universe. Any use of that kind of thing would parallel its use in traditional pulp fiction as well as comic books. (And to be honest, I personally am not interested in plumbing the depths of sexual depravity or the like in a gaming product.)

 

An aside:

 

No one told me the Supreme Serpent resided in Greensboro when I agreed to move here... I thought the Supreme Serpent was in Canada somewhere... Obviously, there's a larger plot here....

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by allen

 

a bunch of stuff that sounds really good, especially this...

 

"Lovecraftian": This word gets used quite a bit, especially in gaming. For me, it has a very specific meaning involving a certain kind of horror writing (man faced with the unknown, unknowable, and incomprehensible discovers traumatically, tragically -- and sometimes fatally -- that all he knows is wrong and he is entirely and completely insignificant in the grand scheme of things). While there'll be room for this in DEMON, it's still a supplement for superhero roleplaying and that sort of horror writing doesn't jibe with the superhero genre, as referred to in general parlance (which is different than an individual GM's use of the genre -- important distinction there).

 

All that said: what I mean by "weirdly mystical" is the mystic as portrayed in weird fiction which includes Lovecraft -- so yeah, "Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!".. *ahem*... sorry, bit carried away there.

 

You rock, Allen.

 

I'm so looking forward to this book.

 

D

[Supreme Serpent]

Originally posted by allen

An aside:

 

No one told me the Supreme Serpent resided in Greensboro when I agreed to move here... I thought the Supreme Serpent was in Canada somewhere... Obviously, there's a larger plot here....

 

Find out something new every day.

 

GSO is where the mail goes, etc. but the SS goes where needed for the plot at hand!

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by allen

Concerning some of the "darker" stuff (i.e., snuff films, sex slaves): I don't find the grittier details of those kinds of activities appropriate to the superhero genre as presented in the Champions Universe. Any use of that kind of thing would parallel its use in traditional pulp fiction as well as comic books. (And to be honest, I personally am not interested in plumbing the depths of sexual depravity or the like in a gaming product.)

Actually, though I'm the one who made this suggestion, I tend to agree with this on the whole.

 

First, I only used sexually-based crimes because our society regards them as the most depraved. There's also things like blood sports (cage fights to the death and such), arson (not involved in insurance fraud), animal and human torture, indentured servitude, and a variety of other dark things.

 

Second, I wouldn't expect a lot of text devoted to this. The inclusion should be scattered throughout the book, mostly as passing remarks so it's there (or not as the GM prefers), and all of the above put together shouldn't take up more than the equivalent of half to three-quarters of a page. As you say, this is a superhero-genre book; only if it's adapted for Dark Champions or something similar should these elements be played up (and probably half the text on these matters would reside in that part of the "Genre By Genre" chapter).

 

Still, some of this kind of thing should be in there. The greed of money and power affect the personality, but corruption of the soul, such as that created by dark, forbidden magic, goes right to the heart and implants the worst evil into a person's heart. (Hey, that was pretty good! Go ahead and use that sentence in the manuscript if you want to!)

[Tom McCarthy]

Random thoughts:

 

DEMON is one of the few organizations that might understand or be aware of the power behind the Supreme Serpent. Definitely a question to answer one way or another. Also, they're an intriguing candidate to pursue the lost lantern.

 

Similarly, VIPER is an automatic opponent of ARGENT and Dr. Destroyer for the acquisition of power through technology. DEMON is an automatic opponent to Takofanes and the Crowns of Krim for acquisition of power through mystical means. DEMON's conflicts with the Crowns and Takofanes must be mentioned. Of course, immortal Morbanes have the potential to attract Dr. Destroyer's attention, too.

 

As far as magical horror without sticking to Lovecraft, the mutating and dehumanizing affect of Chaos from Games Workshop's lines or (I've heard) Monte Cook's Chaositech is another avenue for exploration. Individual cultists bonded to infernal devices without understanding the insidious corruption they've released inside themselves.

 

I'd like a couple of plots that lead to DEMON without clearly being DEMON stories, like a serial murder, kidnappings, cattle mutilations. Arguably, Demons Rule was an attempt at just this.

 

'Religious dates' and the like should be very important to be aware of.

 

If I might be so bold, I know there are multiple Kings of Edom, but I really don't know if they have unique domains within a pantheon or if they all have the same goals, methods, and attitudes. Detailing a few rival Kings (and the factions within DEMON that support them) might be good.

 

I liked that DEMON had mythical figures in its ranks, but it did raise issues when the CU cosmology was unclear (not quite as bad as conflicting versions of Atlantis, but approaching it). Still, I'd like to see one-third to half the upper council be former Morbanes who've risen through the ranks while the rest might be outsiders trained in other magical traditions (shamen, voudons, elementals, faeries, undead).

 

It might be apropos, but a buzz through Suppressed Transmission might be interesting, especially focusing on Antarctic Space Nazis and some High Weirdness.

 

Geographically, will DEMON be centred in North America (Vibora Bay or New Orleans, perhaps) or somewhere hidden and exotic (Tibet, China, Antarctica/Hollow Earth) or decentralized ?

 

Does the CU have a group who have extra-dimensional movement and have even gone so far as to decimate an entire dimension ? Istvatha V'Han (sp ?) has the potential to be such a villain, but she moves whole armies around. DEMON would be a very insidious force (but perhaps less horrifying) if they came from a dimension where they'd already succeeded. Horrorworld and the Anopheles Plague might be worth referring to or updating for a few pages.

[SirViss]

I would like to hear how Initiate are chosen to become Morbanes, and what the "transformation" entails.

 

Another thing I wouldn't mind, is to see a Demonhame that has recently been set up, and what DEMON is doing to spread their influence in that city. I even have a good candidate: Millenium City! It seems that the other organization books have avoided using MC, but I wouldn't mind having a few extras added to the city. If GM doesn't like what he sees he can always not use it, or set it in another city the players will visit.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: What Do You Want To See?: DEMON

 

Originally posted by allen

Hey all, I'm getting ready to settle into writing DEMON, an organization book covering that nefarious group dedicated to conquering the world via mystical means, and it's time for the traditional "What Do You Want To See?" thread. In other words, this is your opportunity to provide some input on the book and the direction it takes.

 

What kind of tone, mood, theme, etc. are you expecting from this organization? My own thoughts (currently, at least) are: the weirdly mystical with generous helpings of mephistophelian malevolence and over-the-top espionage action.

 

I agree with the folks who asked for some input on recruitment and day to day activities. This bunch is supposed to be the worst of the worst, after all... Some of that ought to be described or at least hinted at in the book; DEMON is a superhuman equivalent to every paranoiac conspiracy theory ever written, and some of that aura of creeping horror would be appropriate.

 

Oh, and Tomes Of Unspeakable Horror that summon Things With Unpronouncible Names. Can't have too much of that.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Psychologoy. Why the inner circle wants to bring back/serve the kings of Edom (I will note that I liked the stuff in the Ultimate Supermage in this respect). Why normal cultist join. Things that can be used as plot seeds for DNPCs and mystic heroes, i.e. how DEMON can tempt them.

 

Info on how DEMON interacts with what we know of the Mystic and Super Heroic worlds. Include suggestions on why DEMON would hunt a particular hero and what that would involve.

 

A coherent DEMON style & theory of magic. While experienced members might know more than one style I would expect a common tradition or two to bind most of DEMON together.

 

Stuff on magic items ranging from the big plot devices to info on just how DEMON manages to mass produce all the stuff their cultists use. Suggestions on what to do when PCs take DEMON made items and start to use them…..

 

I want DEMON to be more creepy than over the top. I want suggestions on how to uses them in different types of games (low powered, high powered, 4 color, realistic, etc.)

 

I’m not big on using historical figures like Baba as inner circle members. I will not object to one or two but I don’t really like it.

 

I dislike the magic / tech mixing even more. I like DEMON as a pure magic org … but perhaps one that uses tech occasionally to mislead or has a small internal tech group.

[Metaphysician]

The Champions U can't really be a Lovecraftian setting, since we *know* there are other powers out there besides pure chaos. Its part of canon that their are abstract entities representing moral alignments.

 

That said, this doesn't prevent their from being Lovecraftian entities in the setting, and thats what the Kings of Edom are supposed to be.

 

OTOH, it would make for an interesting element if there are infernal powers trying to take over DEMON from the inside, courtesy of the majority of DEMON who don't know the truth about the Kings of Edom.

[devlin1]

Originally posted by allen

"Deus Est Mortem, Omnes Nox": I'm not clear on the Latin. I haven't pulled out the Wheelock's yet, but "mortem" is from "mors, mortis" which I thought ment coprse, and for some reason it's in the accusitive -- I would've expected a participle of "morior." "Omnes" also looks strange to me -- 3rd declinsion adjective, "omnis, omnis, omne" -- so male/female plural accusitive, but i think it should be singular and nominitive (literarlly: whole/all of the world)... "Deus Est Mortuus; Omnis Nox." eh, my Latin is beyond rusty at this point, I'm afraid.

 

"'People called Romans, they go the house'?"

[Guest muleskinner]

Demonhanes

 

Its propbably too late but are there examples of Demonhanes in the mix. A map or two or even an example of a Demonhane complete with brothers, initiates, a morbane and all the evil "goodies" that would come with it.What the heck type of stuff would be in one of these under-the-old-building places have.

[Supreme Serpent]

Originally posted by devlin1

"'People called Romans, they go the house'?"

 

You know, the possibilities of a "nonsense" motto are amusing...only the enlightened "get it".

[BishopofB&W]

I like all the ideas I've seen so far. I would also like to see a rationale for the split between the Inner Circle and Outer Circle. Are the infernal powers being bribed to go along with it? Are they subordinate to the Kings of Edom? Why don't they just have the Outer Circle take over the whole group? What's to stop one King of Edom from cutting its own deal with the infernals to take control? What do the infernal powers get from the earth becoming a place of horror and misery instead of the playground of possibilities for temptation and corruption that it would be otherwise?

[allen]

Originally posted by devlin1

"'People called Romans, they go the house'?"

 

Natio qui sunt Romani vocata domi irant?

 

LOL... that's wrong... right now, there's Latin instructors with disapproving expressions frowning at their former student's ignorance.

[bafzoul]

I for one would love to see the following:

 

1) A ton of plot ideas

 

2) more super villian write ups for DEMON.

 

3) A good section on equipment unique to DEMON

 

Just my two-cents

[pinecone]

Back in the day I had Demon divided into two competeing branches...a "psionic branch (weird mystical stuff and xtra dimentional mysterys,psudo-lovecraftian stuff, and a "classic evil super mage" group with all the alliterations and big blustering speaches...."Dude, the evil mage is channeling shatner!" I foud it made for more cool plots and let me throw in internal conflicts as well.....just my two cents....

[Killer Shrike]

A couple of notes:

 

a) Havent read thru the previous pages of input, so if I hit something already covered, apologies.

 

Hated 4e and previous Champions Universe and never used them, but am a big fan of the 5e CU. So Ive never seen the old DEMON and am not up on legacy issues that might be brought forward as part of the product identity.

 

 

That aside, what Id like to see for the preeminant mystical villain org follows:

 

a) An Inclusive, not Exclusive magical paradigm. They should have a paradigm capable of encompassing any form of magic, otherwise their recruitment process will make little sense, and they would immediately be at odds with any rival magic system. plus an Exclusive magical paradigm grows boring over time as once PCs have gotten its finite measure they no longer fear it -- but an Inclusive magical paradigm always has something new to throw at you.

 

The flavor of magic used should be much less important than commitment to a common goal or world view.

 

Within DEMON there would then be cliques along common magical traditions, subtrees within the org chart hanging off one or more IC or perhaps more powerful Morbanes. This leads into the next point.

 

Similarly DEMON should not be monolithic, rather it should have sub groups, cabals, witches circles, covens, etc with their own bye-laws and symbology that are essentially DEMON affiliates, sub groups doing their own thing, but toeing the line when the DEMON higher ups give them the word.

 

These sub groups might have their own systems of magic and beliefs, internal organization, and so forth, but this alone isnt the determinant of thier clique. There might be many Voodoo-themed cabals, and they might be enemies of each other as well, but when DEMON tells them to do something they do it.

 

c) DEMON should have some suitably impressive goal(s). If their entire existance is founded on something as simple as "rule the world" or stupid as "bring forth the Elder Powers" they just come off as crackpots.

 

If you have real power, theres got to be something better to do with it than lord over a bunch of useless powerless sheep or bring some more powerful entity into your reality so you can either be killed or lorded over by them.

 

d) Some exploration of if Magic works, why these dipsticks choose to practice dark soul-endangering magics rather than the safer "white" magics. Whats the pay off? In the HERO System a 2d6 Mystic Bolt RKA SFX: 'White Magic" is identical to a 2d6 Mystic Bolt RKA SFX: "Black Magic". So whats the trade off? If there isnt a payoff for accepting the risks of using "Black Magic" the DEMON magic users just dont make a lot of sense.

 

e) A mix-and-match system of mini-packages with which to build a Demon or demonically-gifted cultist. Something like:

 

Winged: Flight X", Restrainable (Wings; -1/2): 1.3 pts per 1"

Horned: HKA: xd6, Restrainable (Horns; -1/2), must at least Half Move (-1/2): 7.5 pts per 1d6

Demonic Aura: Armor xPD xED, Nonpersistant (-1/2), Not vs "Holy" Damage (-1/4), Visible (Noisy to Special Detects; -1/4): 1.5 pts per 1PD/1ED

Unholy Strength: +x STR, Reduced END (0 END, +1/2), No Figured (-1/2): 1 pt per +1 STR

 

Etc

 

f) Some notes to make DEMON usable in the other major Genres. Obviously the core elements of DEMON should translate nicely into many Fantasy settings, but where do they fit into Pulp and Golden Age HEROS (great Nazi related bits possible here), Dark Champions (These guys should make great foes for street level heros -- almost Cthulu-esque at one extreme), Star HERO, and so forth.

 

g) A few "keynote" style main villains, but to maintain the "shadowy organization" aspect of DEMON, I would hazard against being too definitive here. Allusions to other characters, perhaps filling a few sidebars with thumbnail descriptions of some known, reputed, former, and so on members with a nod towards some of the gamist details of that character would allow GMs to pick out and detail villains to suit their needs.

 

As a side note it might be cool to do a "Design the (DEMON) Villain" contest similar to the Name the Hero contest between now and the release of the book. You wouldnt need any artwork or anything, just a handful of descriptions of names and the generals of what the characters are about. That would be pretty cool, IMO, and if you cant fit them into the book they make great ready-made web enhancements/ticklers. The beauty of it is, the notable runner ups can just have new names and descriptions slapped on them and posted too, and could even be underlings to the winner (8 out of 10 villains bent on world domination tend to recruit lackeys with similar mindsets after all). This also raises anticipation of the product and involves the fans.

 

 

 

Thats all that comes to mind at the moment. Perhaps more later....

[Kristopher]

At this point, all I have to add is a resounding "What Killer Shrike said."

[Marcus Impudite]

Given DEMON their own little cadre of really nasty dark magic-based villains tht they keep in reserve for when the caped do-goods prove to be more than just a nuisance.

[Prometheus]

Some of this was already covered, but here's my 2 cents:

 

Modus operandi- For everyone who doesn't own a copy of Gurps: Illuminati, how does DEMON get things done? Where do the resources come from? How do they get used? What's DEMON's style, and what's not?

 

Why God, why?- There's a little bit of DEMON's origin story in CU, but is it the whole story? Does the Inner Circle still strive to see Luther Black's twisted dream come to fruition? Or does the Inner Circle of the 21st century has other goals? What are they, and why?

 

Vulshoth Fhtagn!- Maybe "Lovecraftian" isn't the right term, but comics (JLA: World War III) and tv (Justice League: The Terror Beyond) have both shown that heroes and menaces "in homage to Lovecraft" can mix. A primer for GMs on how to integrate DEMON into a Hero game- with a bibliography and filmography maybe- would be sweet.

 

The Benevolent Protective Order of DEMON- Why would anyone in the their right mind (or otherwise) join DEMON? Who does? What's the recruitment pitch? Write ups (or at least notes on) everyone from the brainwashed homeless shocktroopers to the movers and shakers in the Inner Circle. And how about just one "mundane" member with clout?

[Tom McCarthy]

In order to make DEMON a player, I think it will be necessary that some or all of their weapons have some distinct advantage or difference from VIPER and UNTIL blasters, etc. Their ranged attacks, for example, should probably include some AVLD (Power Defence) or the like, so that traditional armour offers little protection. Or they rival blasters in power (7-8D6), but are truly inobvious until used (jewelry, etc.). They've got what it takes to have ideal stealth technology (invisibility), nasty poisonous attacks (rivaling some of VIPER's nastiest, or purely fantasy inspurations), and the ability to transform innocents into weapons against the heroes.

 

Since PSI already has a lot of mental effects wrapped up, DEMON mental power effects should probably have magical/fantastical/ritual notions. Mind Scan or the like should require multi-member rituals, gestures, chanting, etc. DEMON should probably have some oneiromancers who attack through dreams, too.

[allen]

Originally posted by Prometheus

Vulshoth Fhtagn!- Maybe "Lovecraftian" isn't the right term, but comics (JLA: World War III)...

 

Emphasis mine.

 

That story arc is actually a perfect example of what I'm talking about, since the story progression is decidedly not Lovecraftian -- in short (SPOILER if you haven't read it, btw -- and you should read it, because it's alot of fun): Superman journeys to the heart of Mageddon, an unspeakable evil from before the Fourth Age (as I recall), and he succumbs to despair, allowing the evil to consume him. BUT. Batman reminds him of who he is -- the big boy scout who can't lose -- and Superman, drawing upon the depths of his courage, human spirit, etc., then proceeds to defeat the unbeatable evil. In other words: rather than the being reduced to a gibbering maniac, or at least being haunted forever more by the event, Superman triumphs in the face of incomprehensible evil because of his human qualities.

 

The ending of JLA: WWIII is as if in "Call of Cthulhu" Johanson shook off the madness that gripped him, then put a hammerlock on Cthulhu and said, 'Ok, squid head, time for you to go back to R'lyeh and get back to dreaming -- humanity's here to stay!'

 

Maybe REH would've ended the story that way, but I have a hard time imagining HPL doing so, thus my hesitation to use the term, Lovecraftian.

 

However... certain elements of the story would definitely work for a DEMON plot -- the best of which are (off the top of my head and w/o re-reading the story): As Mageddon approaches Earth, humanity descends into madness and war because of its influence. The appearance of Mageddon. The big jellyfish/brain thing that takes over people and uses them to prepare the way for Mageddon. All of those are elements of weird fiction which are definitely at home with DEMON.

 

Anyway, hopefully that clarifies what I'm talking about a little.

 

Another comment:

 

Yeah, definitely stuff on recruitment both in general and at least one specific example of a single Demonhame's recruitment network.

 

[EDIT: should probably add... the story, "The Horror at Red Hook," is a good example of how I envision DEMON being used in Dark Champions and maybe Pulp Hero (darker campaigns at least)]