What Do You Want To See?: DEMON

[allen]

Hey all, I'm getting ready to settle into writing DEMON, an organization book covering that nefarious group dedicated to conquering the world via mystical means, and it's time for the traditional "What Do You Want To See?" thread. In other words, this is your opportunity to provide some input on the book and the direction it takes.

 

A few words about DEMON:

 

Organizationally, the book will be similar to VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent -- i.e., a history of the organization, details about its recruitment methods and modus operandi, descriptions of select Demonhames, how exactly it plans to conquer the world, etc. In other words, it will cover similar topics as that other organization book -- just with a decidedly DEMON-esque slant.

 

The book is not going to detail the Mystic World in the Champions Universe -- it will only briefly cover how DEMON interacts with pertinent aspects of that world. (For details about the Mystic World, check out the appropriately titled Mystic World, available within the next couple months.)

 

DEMON does not use technology -- their magic and enchanted items (and the book will detail plenty of those) are more than enough to make up for the lack. In short: if a Brother's got a gun, he bought it at the gun shop.

 

Something I'm curious about:

 

What kind of tone, mood, theme, etc. are you expecting from this organization? My own thoughts (currently, at least) are: the weirdly mystical with generous helpings of mephistophelian malevolence and over-the-top espionage action.

 

So anyway bend my ear a little and let me know what you're looking forward to about this book.... any and all comments are welcome and appreciated.

[Metaphysician]

I'd like to see the overall work bear the same degree of seriousness and danger that the VIPER book portrays. DEMON should be at least in the same threat class as VIPER, maybe higher. OTOH, the fact that they could potentially bring about The End Of The World could be counterbalanced by poorer organization, rampant infighting, and the fact that most of DEMON are infernalists rather than alienists. . .

 

Oh, and is there plans for an equivalent to the Supreme Serpent ( head guy in charge of DEMON, master villain level, but little known )??

[Enforcer84]

If I recall from CU that DEMON often transforms thier agents into superbeings temporarily, a couple of "Average" Demon transformations would be good. Are they all the power level of Morningstar?

 

A spell list or how DEMON uses magic would be a must

 

A look at a few of the inner circle...

some options for the IC as far as membership and powerlevels.

 

Plots, gambits, and schemes.

[Guest cubist]

Sounds interesting Allan, though I pesonally won't be buying the book since I have a decided for the quirky mixed-focus mayhem that was past incarnations of Demon and will be updating that for use in 5th edition whenever I finally get around to startin up my own game. Good luck though, it sounds like a sweet writing gig.

[proditor]

One thing I liked in the old 4e Classic Orgs was that the Inner Circle included some serious movers and shakers from Myth, or facsimiles thereof. I /liked/ being able to have Baba Yaga as an Inner circle member (Even if I thought she was underpowered). I got a kick out of the undead Elric guy. I'd like to see some nods to the mystics that survive the transition to the CU without going as nutty as say White Wolf where anyone of historical note was either a lupine or a vamp.

 

Spell lists and sample spells seem to be an absolute necessity.

 

Same with an agent list of common magic talismans a la the UNTIL and VIPER weapon/item lists.

 

And yes, a goals and plot hooks section seems vital. How often do these guys clash with the snakes because they both need something similar? Are these guys only fighting primarily in the shadows in a magic war that the common man and by extension, 4 color hero, doesn't see, or are they also engaged in huge plots to take over Guatemala?

[SirViss]

How DEMON relates to other Organizations, like the Brotherhood of the Scarlet Moon, and Supers with a Mystical bent, like Talisman, Black Paladin, and even Takofanes.

[allen]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

Oh, and is there plans for an equivalent to the Supreme Serpent ( head guy in charge of DEMON, master villain level, but little known )??

 

Well... that'd be telling, wouldn't it?

 

Originally posted by Enforcer84

If I recall from CU that DEMON often transforms thier agents into superbeings temporarily, a couple of "Average" Demon transformations would be good. Are they all the power level of Morningstar?

 

Yeah, there's going to be at least a handful of Package Deals for different types of "standard" demon transformations, so a GM can quickly have some ready for his game (or quickly get them ready if an adventure takes an unexpected turn). I'm not so sure about where they stand point-wise right now... there will be a variety of levels of power, so a GM can pick and choose, but I'm not sure about averages and the like.

 

Originally posted by cubist

Good luck though, it sounds like a sweet writing gig.

 

Thanks... it's definitely going to be fun to write.

[Eosin]

I think a big thing that I would like to see is all kinds of yucky spells. Terrible, terrible, evil kinds of spells.

 

I have always liked DEMON but I mostly run fantasy and this would put them into a "must buy slot for me."

 

Some cool Morbanes - sorry don't have CU so I don't know what we call them now and the inner circle stuff would be fairly sweet also.

 

I liked the top being very divided.

[Herolover]

I almost lost it when I saw this thread. I can't wait for DEMON and have great hope for it.

 

1) I hope that it is the equivalent to the VIPER book. If you want to know how to do it right the VIPER book is a great place to start.

 

2) When I read DEMON I want to be scarred and then I want to scare the behiges ouf of my players.

 

3) Lots and Lots of information on how they interact with the Mystical world. More so than how VIPER interacts with the super world. DEMON and the Mystical World should be so intertwineed that one cannot do without the other.

 

4) Although DEMON does not use technology I would like to see some information on how they use technology and combine it with magic.

 

5) Lots and lots of plots and adventure ideas. The more the better.

 

6) Of course rules and examples for making a routine member of DEMON up at various levels within the organization. Random generation tables would be nice.

 

7) Why hasn't DEMON been take over by the Takaofanes (sp?) or some other group. Why haven't DEMON taken control of them.

 

8) I am not sure if DEMON still has the rivalry with Dr. Destroyer, but if they do what caused it. What are the ramification.

 

9) What are DEMON's current projects and goals. What are some of there best success and worst failures.

 

10) What are the "good" mystical organizations that fight DEMON.

 

11) For some reason I often have characters that have or are related to people that have left DEMON> What does DEMON do to these people.

[JmOz]

I would like to see some notes on how to use it in other settings, especially dark champions and Pulp Hero

 

I too will miss the fake organisation DEMON use to run in 4th edition, so maybe some notes for using DEMON in a non Magical campeign could be useful

 

Realise both these ideas should run no more than a page each...

[megaplayboy]

Probably something along the lines of how Demon is structured differently from VIPER, for one.

The typical DEMON operation, their modus operandi, how they deal with supers, etc.

One interesting wrinkle for how DEMON deals with superheroes would be by resurrecting deceased supervillains:D

 

And of course, a few pages of "typical" summoned servitors, including a "big bad" mega menace to give the superteams a big headache.

[Lord Liaden]

This announcement pleases me greatly, Allen. DEMON has always been one of my favorite Champions organizations, and judging by your work on Shades of Black I expect you to more than do justice to this project.

 

There were a couple of things about earlier incarnations of DEMON that always bothered me from a consistency point of view. The Morbanes and lesser DEMON members had common spells and abilities, but the leadership in the Inner Circle all had wholly unique powers that seemed to bear little resemblance to that of their minions. I'd like to see a particular "DEMON style of magic" that's been taught by veteran members to new inductees - a repetoire of commony used spells and powers that extend from the lowest ranks, through the lesser Morbanes, up to members of the Inner Circle.

 

At the same time it would be kind of boring for all the members to be carbon copies of each other, especially the leadership. I would expect an organization as old and large as DEMON to have recruited powerful mystics from various magical disciplines: Amerindian shamans, voodo bokors, Oriental sorcerors, etc.

 

Another point that always bothered me was how DEMON was in the business of stealing magic artifacts, but very few of those actually appeared in any plots involving the organization. You explicitly intend to detail quite a few magic items, which is great; personally I'd like to see those range from tools and weapons available to most members, up to major plot-driving MacGuffins. The leaders of DEMON in particular would logically have access to Variable Power Pools of mystic gadgets from their stolen treasures. A few "super-villain class" beings who owe their powers to such artifacts would be appropriate as well.

 

I would like to see a further exploration of what makes being a member of DEMON different from belonging to any other super-terrorist organization. This group actively promotes the worship of powers of Evil; the Morbanes are described as some of the most vile, despicable human beings alive. How about looking into the mindset of people who are drawn into such a cult, what they have to do to be accepted, and what they have to do to advance in rank? I realize that there might be limits to how far you would want to go in a supplement for a four-color campaign, but I think we could stand a few whiffs of corruption.

 

If DEMON expects to deal with super-powered opponents from time to time, they would probably have developed their own cadre of super-beings to handle them, similar to VIPER's Dragon Branch. There's certainly plenty of possibilities there: golems, lycanthropes, vampires, demonically-possessed humans, even conjured demons.

 

As Champions Universe revealed, while the rank-and-file believe DEMON to be a Satanist cult, the leaders actually serve the Kings of Edom. It would be really great if this book could detail more about the Kings: their names, their spheres of influence, their powers and the like. If actual writeups are more appropriate to a later book, at least discuss what they demand of their minions. Are they a monolithic block, or does each King have particular goals? Are there rivalries among them? Do the Inner Circle members serve the Kings as a whole, or are particular Kings patrons of individual DEMON leaders? Do rivalries between Kings extend to their followers?

 

In case you hadn't seen it before, a few of us posted our own ideas for running DEMON on the thread below. There might be some ideas you hadn't thought of that you could use:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13261&highlight=demon

 

Speaking of that thread, Please, please consider using the acronym from Bryant Berggren that Derek Hiemforth passed on: "Deus Est Mortem, Omnes Nox" ("God Is Dead, All Is Darkness" - assuming the Latin is accurate).

[Supreme Serpent]

"Thirteen Ways for DEMON to end the world" - various plots to bring Elder Gods through, turn everyone into monsters, raise all the dead, etc.

 

"It all fits!" -Conspiracy bits - not true in mainstream CU, but to give ideas for GM's who may want to do so. Basically, ways to show that DEMON has links/is in control of everyone else. Power source at VIPER Nest found to be magical. Vice President roomed in college with recently captured Morbane. Etc.

 

"One Hundred and One Secret Ingredients" - off the wall stuff that you might need for super magic ritual, including types of sacrificial victims ("man not born of woman", that sort of thing)

 

"DEMON Calendar" - days and times with magical and religious significance for various religions/etc. If don't have room in the book itself, pointing to good references in the "suggested reading" area.

 

"A Close Thing" - Important foes from pivotal stages of DEMON's past, for heroes to team up with during all those time-travel bits.

 

"Join the Family" - section on cults, cult psychology, deprograming, etc.

[Jhamin]

One of the things I loved about V:COTS (and it's 4th ed version) was the way it laid out an organization as something bigger than they nest you were clashing with right now. If Demon is supposed to be this world wide conspiracy, lets get into some detail as to how it works.

 

- How are communications handled? Does everyone report to a superior, until you eventually reach a member of the inner circle? Or do the Morbanes take direction but run day-to-day operations on their own? What are the factions, if any?

 

- If there will be a generic Demon "Magical Style" how do they interact with other dark magicians of other styles? Do Voodo priests for example join Demon, or do they clash with it?

 

- A more exact idea as to how all these legions of cultists get all those magic wands and enchanted amulets. Are they really that easy for anybody with a black cloak to make? Or is there an artificer somewhere turning them out by the truckload?

 

- How does someone get into Demon? Are you recruited? Do you seek them out? What sort of initiation is there? How far in do you have to be before you get your Brazen Wand?

 

- "A week in the life of a Demon Brother" What do these guys do when they aren't sacrificing chickens? Do they have jobs, families?

 

- If the inner circle worship elder beings from beyond time, but the rank and file summon infernal muscle when they need it, where in the command structure does this shift? And how do the Elder beings and Infernal Princes like having the organization split between them?

 

- Viper:COTS had a whole section on the vehicles that back up agents. Does Demon have an equivalent?

 

- Demon in varous environments. Do they menace Atlantis? Orbital Facilites? Tibetan Temples? Monster Island?

If so, what are they doing in these places?

 

- How does Demon fund all these operations? Black Candles are suprisingly spendy. Do they commit crimes for mere wealth? Do they conjure up money as needed? Do they have wealthy benefactors? I for one would rather avoid having them steal their money, that crosses over too much with Viper, but it is something I would like to see addressed.

 

- In related areas, if Demon can summon supernatural servents, why doesn't every two bit Demon Brother have a legion of Devil Knights at his command? What resources does Demon need to call up servents? Can the heroes track someone by staking out the local ethnic food stores waiting for somebody to buy an unusual spice?

 

And to second a couple of other posts:

 

- I agree with the posters asking for consistency in the "Demon Style" of magic, or at least several defined substyles.

 

- I would also like to see both a list of Demon's commonly used supers and several generic monsters that could be called upon by a cult being hunted down by the PCs.

[Lord Mhoram]

I like the idea of a Demon styled magic, and the calander.

 

In general I want demon to work well for conspacy stuff.

 

For the characters....a good sampling of inner circle guys, including a few from history. I was one of the fans of the "the more Morbanes there are the more powerful thier spells get" thing from the really old stuff.... if that could be worked in, I'd be jumping up and down with gleeful chuckles.

[Shikarr]

The few things I would like to see are:

1. the DEMON Calender idea with mystical times and places that DEMON would do special magical rituals and where.

 

2. DEMON interaction with other Supers, whether they simply avoid notice or have special contigency agents for such whether summoned or created.

 

3. DEMON interaction and conspiracy, where DEMON might have their hands in. Perhaps a foundation or something they run up front bankrolling museums to help them find whatever peices or artifacts they need(I did that in one campaign) What businesses or organizations they will have infitrated and how.

 

4. DEMON Recruitment. Where do they get their agents and do they get some agents for specific parts of the organization. Heavy satanic rockers for muscle, Goths for investigation, ect....

 

5. General overall Organization of DEMON and how it breaks down into who believes what

 

6. The Inner Circle. Always nice to know who is at the top although it might be an unnamed person so you could put in anyone neccessary for a campaign at least an overall power level and brief power set

 

7. Common Demons, raised Dead, or such used by Demon as well as any standard magical devices or weaponry. Perhaps Demon uses some sciece to do magic(aka Thirteen Ghosts)

 

That about covers all the basics I would hope to see in the bood and knowing how highly I think of your writing on Shades of Black only makes my mind wander about how good this shall be.

[devlin1]

Re: What Do You Want To See?: DEMON

 

Originally posted by allen

What kind of tone, mood, theme, etc. are you expecting from this organization?

 

One word: Cthulhu.

 

My own thoughts (currently, at least) are: the weirdly mystical with generous helpings of mephistophelian malevolence and over-the-top espionage action.

 

Yeah, that'll do.

 

Personally, I go for otherwordly Lovecraftian horror.

 

Otherworldly Lovecraftian Horror + Superheroes = Gold!

[death tribble]

Apart from what people have already mentioned, I would like some thought on

 

(1) If more than one Morbane links how the power chain works.

 

(2) What does Demon do when magic flutuates or dies completely in the face of an opponent ?

 

(3) Demon relations with and plans for the following:-

Takofanes (as already mentioned)

Talisman and Witchcraft (ditto)

Black Paladin

The Crowns of Krim

VIPER

That Empress from space

Tyrannon (if you really have to. Personal prejudice I hate the character and always have)

Dr Destroyer (Bearing in mind what Dr D did to the Inner Circle and the Serpent Lantern IIRC, wouldn't he try something on Demon as well ?)

[Vex]

Demon

 

I would like to see some mini adventure that causes the pcs to endure slow demonic transformations that they must find a way to stop. I have run a game like this years ago and had a great time with it. It forced the players to really think about their characters and gave them a purpose above and beyond the norm (not just saving people, but trying to save yourself). One character managed to defeat the mental transformation and liked his new shiny black demon body so he didn't go for the cure and another character did the opposite. His body didn't change, but he was so positive that he had changed, that he started acting like a demon. It was great fun!

[BobGreenwade]

My thoughts....

 

A hefty dosage of Lovecraftian horrors, yes definitely. I get rather the impression that this is what's in mind with Qlipothic horrors and the Kings of Edom at any rate.

 

Ingredients from every line of tradition for evil magic, from every culture.

 

Some reasons for Champions GMs to purchase the Fantasy Hero Grimoire -- like, maybe that's where to find spells for some of the lesser Morbanes.

 

Real, real evil. They're not out to just conquer the world, but to make it the ugliest place possible for everyone who doesn't believe as they do while feeding their own desires for pleasure. Unlike their combat operations, this wouldn't be limited to magical practices -- trading in slaves, especially sex slaves of all races and ages would be right up there at the top of the list. Imagine the reaction when heroes learn that the company they just uncovered making child pornography and snuff films is actually a front operation for something even worse.

 

And, as this implies, their money has to come from somewhere. Even without super-level tech, their magic ingredients require some capital, so they'd have some business operations for that purpose. These could range from the ugly criminal operations alluded to above, to seemingly innocuous (or at least legitimate) things like telephone psychics, horoscope publishers, and similar businesses.

 

A section on how DEMON exacts revenge on those that cross it would be good too. I don't think they'd simply kill someone just for revenge; more likely they'd want to ruin the person's life first. Attack his DNPCs (with illnesses, deformities, rape, or mayhem), cause his equipment to malfunction and fall apart, wreak havoc on his personal relationships, and generally assassinate his character to leave him homeless and hopeless before ending his life would be more in line.

[Supreme Serpent]

Hmm, Bob's post made me think of something else, as some of what he wants to see (child porn, snuff films, rape) (OK, maybe not what he ACTUALLY personally wants to SEE, but I mean in the game ) is stuff I don't care for in a Champions game.

 

So...howabout a section on "Running DEMON through the Ages" - game/tone advice on how to present/handle DEMON in the various comic "ages" - Silver, Bronze, Iron, etc. , and maybe special Dark Champions subset.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Supreme Serpent

Hmm, Bob's post made me think of something else, as some of what he wants to see (child porn, snuff films, rape) (OK, maybe not what he ACTUALLY personally wants to SEE, but I mean in the game ) is stuff I don't care for in a Champions game.

I probably (OK, definitely) should have stated that this could be an option that could be included or not (or left as a purely background device) at the GM's discretion).

[AnotherSkip]

Most of the stuff is good.

 

On the subsection of morbanes and powers how about having a tree of secrets of power with the power and training flowing from the top (inner circle) to the bottom (grunts) so that each "branch" feels slightly different. Ie Baba Yaga's Russian wish magic gives slightly different powers than the Lord Loa's undead servant summoners. this should even reflect cover organizations so that players have to really crack what kind of nut this is before they can look for all the threads.

 

perhaps a bit of international detail would be useful also....

[Monolith]

What I think I'd really like to see is a supplement that is more interactive with the CU enviroment. To me both UNTIL and VIPER were more crunch than cream. I'd like to see more cream. Yes it's nice to see 100 different DEMON weapons but seeing that is not as important as seeing some plots that DEMON is instigating; seeing how they are attempting to bring the world into their, and the Kings', grasp.

 

I'd like to see how their structure works, and know about the places DEMON "recruits" operatives. Give us some places of interest, certain nightclubs or whatever. Gives up places we can add to our existing game, not just dry facts. I'd like to know how to link them to Millennium City and Vibora Bay. I want to see how DEMON works, not what tools they use to make it work.

 

Tell us about all the Inner Circle Morbanes and their hidden agendas. Evil at this level always has a hidden agenda. I'm envisioning something more along the lines of the Hellfire Club and their constant power-struggles to take command. I also don't think that the Inner Circle needs to be all-powerful. I'm not interested in seeing more 2,000 point characters. I'm interested in seeing real people with real lives and real objectives.

 

Gadgets and spells are all nice things but I have some 7,000 spells to choose from in the FHG. I have several thousand gadgets I can convert to magic items in G&G. I don't need more crunch to make this work. I need some cream.

[Highwayman]

I see DEMON as evil with a capital E. Given a choice, a DEMON member will always choose the path that maximizes the suffering of others, even when it seems to go against their best interests, because their real best interest is to sow as much chaos and corruption as possible in order to pave the way for their masters. I think that would be the guiding principle for how they interact with the PCs and the rest of the world.

 

I also see them as deeply, deeply weird. Since they ultimately serve beings that even most mystics don’t understand, sometimes orders will come down from the Inner Circle that don’t make any sense. A list of dark, strange things for them to do, like leaving a goat heart on every grave in town with the letter L on the tombstone, would be a nice touch. Maybe it could be part of a grand plot, or maybe it's just Tuesday.