assault Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Killer Shrike Wasnt there a limited series back in the day of this setting with a collection of messed up "superheroes", like the gay batman clone, a junkie speedster, a klan-esque vigilante, and a dominatrix, and focused on them all getting and traumatizing new sidekicks in various ways? Very messed up series, early 90's? Anybody? The Bratpack, by Rick Veitch. Very messed up indeed. Positively readable, though, when compared to Veitch's Maximortal stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cubist Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Bad Medecine's teen heroes apeared in the Fuzion Champs game that was my introduction to gaming with Michael Nenonen. He made all the characters come to life in hilarious(and disturbing ways)- he added then to the cast of students from the New Millenium books' super school (can't remember the name of school tho) and then added in the player characters to see how it all mixed out. We defeated the speedster crime wave, stopped the destruction of a camp for the Junior Marxmen (socialist boyscouts)- which also led to the inevitable (for Michael anyways) Scooby Doo ending complete with mask and "I would have gotten away with it too, if not for those darn kids" quote. We went to Andrew Llyod Weber's musical production of Apocalypse Now, starring Meatloaf as Kurtz(Meatloaf actually ended up killing a villain with an electric guitar too, though he did have help) and accidentally gave the audience a variation on AIDS when the group teke artisit fumbled a roll to teke away the walking bioweapon badguy and dropped him into the crowd and bursting him over them. We fought a bondage-ensorcelling ghost of Joe McCarthy and I got to shoot up the lobby of the school on the first day of classes. We went to other dimensions, some bad and others just damn scary (thank my character's Code vs. Killing only applied to living humans- he was a walking weapon that saved the rest of the PCs on numerous occasions). Oh, I also got to gas a number of my fellow classmates, machine gun the assembly hall during an assembly and blow the hip off a fellow student's father. All in all, I really miss that game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by cubist All in all, I really miss that game... Yes, it sounded like it had pretty much everything a game needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by assault The Bratpack, by Rick Veitch. Very messed up indeed. Positively readable, though, when compared to Veitch's Maximortal stuff. Yeah. Heh. That guys got "issues" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Bratpack review: http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/reviews/105579773610469.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Originally posted by Supreme Serpent OK, now that we have an idea of what books this is supposed to emulate, some of "what I want to see": "Sidekicks: Growing up in a Hero's shadow" - tips for making sidekick characters in various stages (just starting, full partner stage, "moving out"). Challenges and opportunities that come with the tights. aka "The Dick Grayson (Robin I/Nightwing) Story" "Teen Champions Challenges" - teen heroes have to deal with what other heroes have to deal with, and have other problems on top of that. Less respect from authority figures/adult heroes, schoolwork, parents,general teenage BS. Can YOU handle the school bully without using your fire powers? aka "The Tim Drake (Robin III) Story" "Ravenswood Academy" - the special school for teens with powers. aka "The X-Men/New Mutants Story" "Teen Enemies" - ideas for teen-specific plots. Teachers being taken over by aliens. Superpowered teen gang making problems...and looking for new recruits. Master villain looking for what he thinks will make more impressionable lackeys, etc. aka "The Teen Titans Story" All great ideas, to be sure; just pointing to the archetypes they represent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Being a Titans fan (comic, both old and new, & toon), as well as a Warriors fan and New Mutants fan, I'm really looking foward to this book. The teen enemies is something I'm really looking foward to, but I'd also like to see some quasi-serious/quasi-lame villains (like Dr. Light, Killer Moth, Crazy Quilt and the Mad Mod). Rules on running the "Afterschool Special" campaign would be cool, as well as the light-hearted campaigns and the Teen drama campaigns ("You mean Cindy's going to ask Kid Defender out?!"). On a side note, it'd be cool to see "The Teen Champions" in the book Any chance of Seeker making it on that team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrier Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Teen Champions and Anime? Well we're talking about teenagers with powers and abiliites beyond those of mortal men, yes? Anime is full of such characters. Has anyone here seen Sailor Moon? Yes, I said Sailor Moon, wherein the main character starts her superpowered career in Junior High School. Akira had a teenager discover he had immense psychic power and how his life as a downtrodden child and teenager affected what he did with his powers. Then there's Tenshi from the OVAs, Movies, and TV series who also went to high school. Duel which was released recently, had much of its plot centered around the main character's dealing with being a Mecha Pilot and going to high school. Indestructible Campus Guardess where the students and teachers have superpowers. And there are more than a few more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormhole Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 On a related topic, how would the authorities in the Champions universe deal with superpowered juvenile delinquents? Would a "Stronghold Junior" be built to contain them or would they just be sent to Stronghold right along with all the adult villains? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Originally posted by Wormhole On a related topic, how would the authorities in the Champions universe deal with superpowered juvenile delinquents? Would a "Stronghold Junior" be built to contain them or would they just be sent to Stronghold right along with all the adult villains? I get the impression that Stronghold is all solitary confinement, with no common areas, no caffeteria, etc, and if that's the case there's no danger from the adult prisoners -- unless there's a breakout. However, there would probably be a lot of opposition from various groups -- ACLU, etc -- to putting kids in solitary confinement. Given the increasing harshness with which normal kids are being treated when they commit crimes, something rediculous would probably be done to superpowered kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Originally posted by Killer Shrike Bratpack review: http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/reviews/105579773610469.htm *shudders* And to think, I once wondered how Veitch's Aquaman could be so bad. Now I'm wondering how they could've hired him in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 I have to say I've found this all really interesting, and timely, since I just became GM of a teen champions PBEM. WHich has room for one or tw more characters if anyone is interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 I'm glad so many people have found this useful and/or interesting. I was worried that it would just "thud" because I'd be the only one interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomGM2602 Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 How about Preteen Champions? Originally posted by allen Geez louise... the Supreme Serpent is obviously spying on me.... All of the above will be covered in detail. While you're at it Allan Why don't you add this section: Ptreteen Champions or How to deal with superpowered Kids! Think being a teen super is bad enough,try dealing with life as a kid who just manefested superpowers and have'nt a single clue on how to control them. sure his origins may be varied such as: given powers by a dying alien[POWER PACK} Being Part of a Mutant Family[Clan Destine: Marvel,A Distant Soil] Ingesting Strange Chemicals[speedball] Finding an Alien device with strange abilities[slapstick] Genetic Experiment{the Eternals,Inhumans[Marvel] DC's Milestone line] Super heroic legacies[up,Up,And Away,Disney] The thing is: a kid has enough problems such as getting ready for school,getting his homework done and dealing with the school bully. The last thing he needs is to manefest powers right off the bat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Originally posted by Twilight *shudders* And to think, I once wondered how Veitch's Aquaman could be so bad. Now I'm wondering how they could've hired him in the first place. Heh. Well, he worked for them first, then quit when they wouldnt print Swamp thing meets Jesus or some such event he wrote when doing Swamp Thing, and then eventually hired him back. In the interim he wrote Bratpack and a few other odd things. Ill say this, Bratpack was like a train wreck in slow motion, but Ive never actually forgotten it. So, at least its memorable. One highly messed up comic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 In defence of Veitch: (1) His stuff on Swamp Thing was "just fine". (2) Bratpack was a response to the incredibly tacky way DC handled the killing off of Jason Todd. "If you think Jason Todd should die, dial... If you think he should live, dial..." I mean, ewww... (3) Bratpack was definitely memorable. On the other hand, Maximortal, part of the same project, was just unpleasant. But anyway, back on topic!!! I've been dabbling with 200 point characters over the last few days, in order to see what was possible. My conclusions are: yes, you can build "high-powered" characters on that point total. The trick is to cut back their characteristics and skills to the _absolute_ minimum. OK, everybody, break out your copies of the Champions genre book. Turn to the random chargen section. Look at how the 350 point characters it produces break down: 125 points of Chars, 50 points of Skills, 100 points of primary powers, and 75 points of secondary powers. OK, so if you are building a character on 200 points, you have a few options: (1) Maintain most of the Chars and Skills, and cut down the powers to a minimum; (2) Maintain most of the powers and cut down the chars and skills to the _absolute_ minimum, (3) Balance the two, with your character being weaker in both areas, but still relatively balanced between the two. Of course, if your character depends on a focus, or some similar limitation, your job becomes a lot easier, but I am generally assuming unmodified "mutant-style" powers here. (Or, of course, fairly weak powers mostly bought through focuses - "gadgets".) Building Robin, Speedy, Bucky, or any of the non-powered sidekicks, in this situation, is a matter of emphasising chars and skills at the expense of powers. This works well enough. Building relatively weak characters like Aqualad, early Wonder Girl, or even Smallville-style Clark Kent is a balancing act. This works too. Building a power-monster like Kid Flash, or Rogue(!) involves sacrificing chars and skills in order to build up their powers. In effect, such characters are likely to have 150-175 points of powers, and only 25-50 points of chars and skills! This isn't actually a problem. They will suck a lot when things like END is involved, and they will have almost nothing going for them in terms of chars, apart, perhaps, from DEX and SPD, which are the characteristics essential to allowing them to be able to effectively use their powers. They will, in short, be perfect for the "incredibly powerful younger sibling" role in the team. And if the whole team is like this, then you just explain that this is a team of 13 year olds... Yes, you can do a whole lot of things with 200 point characters, if you think about it. On the other hand, the "all powers" strategy doesn't work too well if you get too excited about things like maximum DCs, or characters only having a couple of powers, or all powers being limited. You can, of course, encourage modifications in this direction. For example, you could encourage power heavy characters to buy off a bunch of their less necessary multipower slots in favour of more skills and chars. Given their extreme weakness in this area, this might not be too difficult an ask. Balancing all this, in other words, might be difficult. On the other hand, the more extreme characters are going to be highly limited in many situations - either in combat, for the skill mongers, or out of it, for the "full-power" characters. And if the latter are a real problem, ban them from buying Reduced Endurance, and see how long the last throwing around 14 dice attacks at 7 END a piece, when they've only spent 40 points on their characteristics, mostly on DEX and SPD! A final hint: you can get a lot of points back from buying your less "important" primary characteristics down from 10 to 8, or even less. And your GM can't really complain about your 13 year old not being as strong, strong-willed, or physically impressive as an adult, can they? You can even use acne as a pretext for buying down your COM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Most of the characters I've been tinkering with have been a few years older than 13. Even at 300 points, they feel pretty young and inexperienced. They have few if any combat skills, lower CVs and DCs than the established characters in the campaigns, weak spots in the Characteristics and Skills, etc. I think whoever said that it was more about atmosphere and tone and theme than about point totals was right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSword Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Originally posted by Kristopher Most of the characters I've been tinkering with have been a few years older than 13. Even at 300 points, they feel pretty young and inexperienced. They have few if any combat skills, lower CVs and DCs than the established characters in the campaigns, weak spots in the Characteristics and Skills, etc. I think whoever said that it was more about atmosphere and tone and theme than about point totals was right. Emphasis added by me. Since one part of Teen Champions can be examining characters with new powers they don't know how to control yet, perhaps a discussion on collateral damage. In Champs, typically a missed energy blast or thrown object just misses, NBD. But some of the EBs have more power then missles, what happens when they miss. Explaining to the authorities, "Officer, I was sure I had him, sorry about the hole in the side of the school." I think this is covered some in FREd, but perhaps a chart or table of examples of collateral damage which may focus more on teen battlegrounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 That's a very good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 I just want to add my vote for coverage of "genres" like Buffy and (esp) Smallville. Those shows, and even crappy (IMHO) WB fare like Tarzan and Birds of Prey seem to comprise a sort of teen supers that's a little (well, a lot) less spandex-n-angst, yet still cinematic and filled with good fights. I kinda like taking costumes out of the equation. I know I'm going to run a "Littleton" game at some point (probably as a Sidekick game at cons or to pimp HERO to my Saturday group). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 I'm also going to toss in one that I don't think has been mentioned yet. It's decent after-work fare for lightening my mood, and has some good action. Kim Possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Originally posted by Kristopher Kim Possible. Yes. I actually watched it this morning (Saturday) and thought the same. OK, there's not a lot of stuff to watch while loafing on a Saturday morning, but this is still quite legit source material. A couple of hours before it I watch the Australian made TV series Cybergirl, whose hero and her sidekicks are teens as well. My only worry about Kim Possible is what _is_ that pink thing that lives in her sidekick's pocket? I keep thinking of an episode of Red Dwarf where Kryten built himself a detachable, independently mobile penis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Originally posted by assault Yes. I actually watched it this morning (Saturday) and thought the same. OK, there's not a lot of stuff to watch while loafing on a Saturday morning, but this is still quite legit source material. A couple of hours before it I watch the Australian made TV series Cybergirl, whose hero and her sidekicks are teens as well. My only worry about Kim Possible is what _is_ that pink thing that lives in her sidekick's pocket? I keep thinking of an episode of Red Dwarf where Kryten built himself a detachable, independently mobile penis. A naked mole rat, named Rufus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted March 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by allen And there will definitely be teen villains in the book For a teaser, there's a brief reference in Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth I'm hoping to expand upon in Teen Champions. I just picked up a copy of STAST, and caught the reference. I agree whole-heartedly that you should expand on that in Teen Champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted October 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 Re: Early "What do you want to see?" for Teen Champions Has it already been 7 months since we talked about this? Teen Champions is almost upon us. I haven't been around here much, have I missed any discussions or hint-dropping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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