RPG.net

[nexus]

I was wondering if anyone felt that Rpg.net forums are a little, well, hostile to Hero players?

[Vondy]

this came up recently as a tengental topic on the non-gaming discussion boards.

 

the general consensus seemed to be that rpg.net was just plain hostile, but one does get the impression that some of the posters there are specifically anti-hero.

[devlin1]

Originally posted by Von D-Man

the general consensus seemed to be that rpg.net was just plain hostile, but one does get the impression that some of the posters there are specifically anti-hero.

You mean they pursue their own brand of justice which puts them into conflict with established authority?

[nexus]

I don't get rpg.net to be honest. Hero get slapped around, lied about, and basically you can't make a post about without certain people popping up to tell you its "dead" "Obsolete" or whatever, but God Help you if you say you don't like d20.

 

Yes. I'm bitter.

[Solomon]

As a sociological experiment, I'd like to make a post on RPG.NET stating that I don't like Exalted.

[DrFurious]

Just an observation:

 

I don't feel that RPGnet is necessarily hostile to Hero players per se. Rather, Hero players and gm's tend to be concerned about the nuts-and-bolts building of the Hero system while the RPGnet boards are more concerned about the gaming experience. Hero fans will debate on the merits of power frameworks to simulate some effect. RPGnet'ers would debate using sources of inspiration from other games without allegence to a particular system.

 

From my own experiences, a large poriton of the posts on the Hero boards follows the former trend while the RPGnet board posts follow the latter. The RPGnet boards have a large portion of discussions on doing different, neat, interesting, or even weird things with a variety of systems. Hero fans tend to want to do all of this in Hero - even if Hero is not the best fit. (Trust me, sometimes doing a particular game in Hero is not the way to go). RPGnet'ers are much more likely to buy various systems, using bits and pieces for whatever game they have in mind.

 

Maybe the standard RPGnet'er doesn't find Hero inspiring - and maybe that is percieved as a flaw that makes them turn their noses down. A toolkit system in a vaccuum doesn't really get the creative juices flowing for most people. Sure you can do a lot in Hero but why do so if a game designer has already been inspired to produce a facinating game with another system? Whether all of this is true or not, I believe that groups of each side have a clash due to these percieved attitudes of the other group.

 

!DrFURIOUS!

[nexus]

Originally posted by Solomon

As a sociological experiment, I'd like to make a post on RPG.NET stating that I don't like Exalted.

 

You're a braver man than I. I'd rather stop a fan with my tongue.

[Lord Liaden]

It's a funny thing: I was recently on the RPGnet Open forum, and one thread was asking why there had been so little discussion of HERO System Sidekick there. Several people asserted their belief that HERO was an obscure system that generated little interest, and/or that Sidekick didn't have appeal to people who don't like detailed systems or to existing HERO fans who want more detail than that book has. Several folks asserted an oft-repeated truism that HERO was outdated, other "generic" systems were better/more modern, etc. A few people, on both sides of HERO fandom, agreed that there had been several posters openly hostile to the system on those boards, and that maybe the lack of discussion there was due to few HERO System fans actually wanting to post there.

 

I feel as though the Hero Games and RPGnet boards represent a version of what we in Canada often call "the Two Solitudes;" mutual incomprehension and distrust that are an impediment to fruitful dialogue.

 

Dr. Furious, it seemed to me that your impression of HERO gamers is that they're somewhat insular in their approach to using the system to simulate various genres. With all due respect, my own experience - in games and on these boards - is quite the opposite. Many posters here assert that they play other games besides HERO, and actually prefer other games for a particular genre. Many of those who don't, still claim to buy lots of game books from other companies to use as source material. If there's a difference from the common approach on RPGnet, it's that rather than playing many games, HERO gamers are often intent on using that material as inspiration for their HS games, or even converting it into the One True System. You just have to look at all the "How do you convert 'X' to HERO?" threads around here.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by devlin1

You mean they pursue their own brand of justice which puts them into conflict with established authority?

 

Yes, exactly.

 

Actually, they don't like a LOT of things on RPG.net.

Like America and capitalism.

 

On the other hand, if I didn't read RPG.net, I never woulda known about this guy:

http://www.albrunothethird.com

 

 

JG

[DrFurious]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Dr. Furious, it seemed to me that your impression of HERO gamers is that they're somewhat insular in their approach to using the system to simulate various genres. With all due respect, my own experience - in games and on these boards - is quite the opposite. Many posters here assert that they play other games besides HERO, and actually prefer other games for a particular genre. Many of those who don't, still claim to buy lots of game books from other companies to use as source material. If there's a difference from the common approach on RPGnet, it's that rather than playing many games, HERO gamers are often intent on using that material as inspiration for their HS games, or even converting it into the One True System. You just have to look at all the "How do you convert 'X' to HERO?" threads around here.

 

Perhaps I am making a distinction between a Hero gamer (as one who plays Hero among other games) as opposed to a Hero fan (as one who plays Hero almost exclusively). It seems to me that these boards are more a home of the Hero fan.

 

I think that the highlighted portion above may be the source of some of the hostility toward Hero on the RPGnet boards. I do agree that there are members of both boards that purchase a multitude of game materials as inspiration - what good gamer can not? It is that fraction of people that seem intent on converting a game to Hero that ruffles some feathers. I don't think that a lot of people on the RPGnet boards are interesting in converting to Hero - for various reasons. In the minds of some who do respond to such threads about Hero, they're reacting as they would toward an elitist snob. I don't think that the perception is valid but those who do tend to speak up more and then you get a perception of hostility.

 

!DrFURIOUS!

[Chris Goodwin]

To be a Hero fan on RPG.net, you have to either have or grow a thick skin. Either live with that fact or save yourself an ulcer and don't read RPG.net.

[Toadmaster]

I will occasionally check in over there to see if there is anything useful (sometimes there is) but I've found it a hostile place with little courtesy among posters and a lot of attitude about differing gaming styles. Its kind of like the NGD board here without the civility or willingness to see another point of view.

 

It really is too bad because I have seen some good discussion at times but there is a lot of crud to wade through.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by DrFurious

Hero fans tend to want to do all of this in Hero - even if Hero is not the best fit. (Trust me, sometimes doing a particular game in Hero is not the way to go). (snip) Sure you can do a lot in Hero but why do so if a game designer has already been inspired to produce a facinating game with another system?

It's interesting. We both look at the same phenomenon, and look at it two different ways. To me, wanting to do every game in Hero is a sign of less attachment to the rules set, rather than more. It's a statement that once you know the rules of a particular rules engine, and assuming that engine can handle a game at least passably well (which I think Hero can do for any game, even if it is not the ideal engine for all games), then simply sticking with the engine you know allows you to focus on the world, the characters, the "flavor," and so on. It's saying that the rules are less important than the setting. The rules are simply the skeleton over which the actual substance of the game is draped.

 

If you play every game with a different rules set, then to me, that's saying that the rules are as important as the setting. Time that could be spent on developing the cool stuff in the setting is instead spent learning yet another rules engine.

 

I don't run everything in Hero because I think Hero is a perfect rules engine, or that it's ideally suited to every game. I run everything in Hero because it's a solid, very broadly applicable rules engine that I know will work well enough in any given game, allowing me and my players to concentrate on the setting and the flavor rather than on learning new rules.

[nexus]

Originally posted by DrFurious

It is that fraction of people that seem intent on converting a game to Hero that ruffles some feathers. I don't think that a lot of people on the RPGnet boards are interesting in converting to Hero - for various reasons. In the minds of some who do respond to such threads about Hero, they're reacting as they would toward an elitist snob. !DrFURIOUS!

 

You mean as opposed to the elitist snobs over there that want to convert everything to d20.

[DrFurious]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

If you play every game with a different rules set, then to me, that's saying that the rules are as important as the setting. Time that could be spent on developing the cool stuff in the setting is instead spent learning yet another rules engine.

Playing with a different rules set for every game is a bit much, I agree. But sometimes, a rules system can greatly help (or hinder) the mood for a particular game. In the very least, the rules should not get in the way of the game.

 

That said, not every set of rules is complicated to learn and remember. How often do you see the STAT + SKILL + die roll <= TARGET mechanic? Very often. In some games, the rules are very tightly linked to the setting because they help set the mood for the players.

 

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

I don't run everything in Hero because I think Hero is a perfect rules engine, or that it's ideally suited to every game. I run everything in Hero because it's a solid, very broadly applicable rules engine that I know will work well enough in any given game, allowing me and my players to concentrate on the setting and the flavor rather than on learning new rules.

 

I used to think this way until recently. In one of my games, I spent too much time hammering a rules set to get the feel I wanted and not enough time developing mood and flavor. If a game designer has developed a set of rules suited for a particular game, why should I be re-inventing the wheel? In this situation, the rules didn't work well enough for what I wanted to accomplish in the game.

 

!DrFURIOUS!

[DrFurious]

Originally posted by nexus

You mean as opposed to the elitist snobs over there that want to convert everything to d20.

I don't remember seeing a lot of d20 threads either

 

!DrFURIOUS!

[nexus]

Originally posted by DrFurious

I don't remember seeing a lot of d20 threads either

 

!DrFURIOUS!

 

Wait.

 

It has died down quite a bit, but for awhile there its was d20 or nothing.

[Dust Raven]

I don't like the RPG.net forums. They remind me of the forums for Palladium and Wizards. Different topics but the same attitude. I was actually surprised to find the boards here to be quite different and have quite a few stimulating conversations. That's something I've not encountered yet on any other message board.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by DrFurious

Playing with a different rules set for every game is a bit much, I agree. But sometimes, a rules system can greatly help (or hinder) the mood for a particular game. In the very least, the rules should not get in the way of the game.

 

!DrFURIOUS!

 

I agree. Though I use Hero almost exclusively, there are a few times I feel a different rules system would enhance the role-playing experience. These exceptions are few and far between, however, and everything else I'll recreate (not convert) with Hero. Among those notable exceptions is Amber Diceless, which for the most part foregoes rules altogether.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

It's interesting. We both look at the same phenomenon, and look at it two different ways. To me, wanting to do every game in Hero is a sign of less attachment to the rules set, rather than more. It's a statement that once you know the rules of a particular rules engine, and assuming that engine can handle a game at least passably well (which I think Hero can do for any game, even if it is not the ideal engine for all games), then simply sticking with the engine you know allows you to focus on the world, the characters, the "flavor," and so on. It's saying that the rules are less important than the setting. The rules are simply the skeleton over which the actual substance of the game is draped.

 

If you play every game with a different rules set, then to me, that's saying that the rules are as important as the setting. Time that could be spent on developing the cool stuff in the setting is instead spent learning yet another rules engine.

 

I don't run everything in Hero because I think Hero is a perfect rules engine, or that it's ideally suited to every game. I run everything in Hero because it's a solid, very broadly applicable rules engine that I know will work well enough in any given game, allowing me and my players to concentrate on the setting and the flavor rather than on learning new rules.

As usual I agree w/ Derek.

 

On a side note I dont post on RPG.net because a few casual skims from time to time have lent me the impression that the general maturity level can be rather low. You get a few posters of that ilk over here on the HERO Boards but they are easily canceled out by classy posters like Lord Liaden, RP Miller, lemming, and Derek "Not an Employee of HERO Games" Heimforth (and several others, of course).

 

Maybe Im off base and I just had a bad sampling, but I'm too old, too busy, and too intolerant any more to put up with a lot of haxxor suxor, "you suk", and "only my way is the right way" gamers, so I give it a miss.

 

Personally, I try not to get into "my game systems better" arguments anymore. They're like religious debates -- a total waste of time. I have my opinions about games and will voice them, but I dont lend them any more weight than just being opinions. If somebody enjoys a system while I might think it sucks, I say more power to them. Lifes to short to waste time on things that arent fun....

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

It's a funny thing: I was recently on the RPGnet Open forum, and one thread was asking why there had been so little discussion of HERO System Sidekick there.

 

Thanks for drawing my attention to that thread. I took the opportunity to post my opinion.

[Enforcer84]

Did they yell at you?

[Solomon]

Originally posted by DrFurious

Just an observation:

 

I don't feel that RPGnet is necessarily hostile to Hero players per se. Rather, Hero players and gm's tend to be concerned about the nuts-and-bolts building of the Hero system while the RPGnet boards are more concerned about the gaming experience. Hero fans will debate on the merits of power frameworks to simulate some effect. RPGnet'ers would debate using sources of inspiration from other games without allegence to a particular system.

 

TBF, this has more to do with the fact that this board is owned and run by a game company, and caters to the needs of its players. You only need to check the forums of other companies (no names) to realise that HERO players are a varied and diverse lot indeed.

 

I also second what Derek and KS said.

[Qamar]

Re: RPG.net

 

Originally posted by nexus

I was wondering if anyone felt that Rpg.net forums are a little, well, hostile to Hero players?

 

There certainly are a few vocal people who jump into any Hero discussion to pontificate why Hero is "antiquated", clumsy", "sucks", etc., etc., etc. But at least one of those people hangs here as well.

 

I think most people are ambivalent towards Hero and simply like to talk baout their own favorite games. There is a core of people on RPG.net who love Hero and defend it well.

[lemming]

Re: Re: RPG.net

 

Originally posted by Qamar

There certainly are a few vocal people who jump into any Hero discussion to pontificate why Hero is "antiquated", clumsy", "sucks", etc., etc., etc. But at least one of those people hangs here as well.

 

I think most people are ambivalent towards Hero and simply like to talk baout their own favorite games. There is a core of people on RPG.net who love Hero and defend it well.

Like anywhere, it's the vocal people that make the biggest impression. And unfortunetly, negative impressions tend to make a more lasting impression in the short run.

 

The Hero boards also are much smaller with 1/4 the members and at any time 1/10 the number of people on the board. It makes for a more intimate, less anonymous interaction.