Teamwork

[Trebuchet]

One of my co-GMs found this question on a chatroom, and it was interesting enough I thought I'd see what other players and GMs here think:

 

FREd only lists one real use for the Teamwork skill: coordinating attacks on a single foe for purposes of

- multiple attacker bonus

- adding stun together to overwhelm a tough foe

 

So there I am, with a skill I've paid 3 or more points for (perhaps much more). But ... is that ALL I can do with the skill? Surely there's more to Teamwork than simply pounding a megavillain into "GM option".

 

How about...

- conveying information covertly (hand signs, eye rolling, a subtle

flexing of muscles, whatever)

- coordinated but separate attacks, whether side by side, or otherwise?

- choosing targets automatically (IE, you KNOW which one HE will choose

by default, because he's on your left)

 

What do YOU think the teamwork skill could or should be used for? Or is Boss Bashing enough benefit for having the Teamwork skill that you are satisfied? Do you feel you get your points' worth?

[Snarf]

Re: Teamwork

 

I've used it as a RSR for powers that are based on multiple characters combining in one huge attack with precise timing.

[Blue]

Re: Teamwork

 

I've used it for anticipating what your teammates are doing, even if they make no attempt to communicate the info. If you've worked with the person before, I give no modifier. If they have teamwork skill I let them roll to give you a bonus.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Teamwork

 

KNowing where your team will be during a fight. Knowing Code, Maneuvers, and disguises?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Teamwork

 

KNowing where your team will be during a fight. Knowing Code' date=' Maneuvers, and disguises?[/quote']By "code" I assume you mean spoken/shouted code-phrases such as "fastball special," etc? But how do you include disguises? Do you mean you recognize your teammates even out of costume or if they've changed form?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Teamwork

 

Hey ... at least it's not 3E version where you had to buy it up from 8 or less.

 

For the most part, I don't think Teamwork is worth it as-is, mostly because I think of coordination as the least effective teamwork technique in Hero. Far more effective is the setup power, like Flash or Entangle, followed by a heavy attack, in my experience.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Teamwork

 

For the most part' date=' I don't think Teamwork is worth it as-is, mostly because I think of coordination as the least effective teamwork technique in Hero. Far more effective is the setup power, like Flash or Entangle, followed by a heavy attack, in my experience.[/quote']While setups are almost always good, sometimes you need to dish out more damage than just one character can deliver to put down the bad guy.

 

My character spends probably half of every combat Legsweeping or Martial Throwing villains so her less agile comrades can hit when the bad guys are at half DCV. In our last fight, she jumped onto the shoulders and kept her hands over the eyes of a 30' tall demigodess/demoness almost the entire fight so the villain was unable to see and attack her teammates for half the fight while her teammates pummeled said bad guy with relative impunity. However, that was an example of teamwork, not Teamwork.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teamwork

 

Teamwork is well worth the 3+ points, but then again, I do use it for other things.

 

Of course, there's coordinating attacks.

You can make a roll to know what a team member is doing, or going to do, even if you can't see them, but can see the opponents. Out of combat, you can use it to "guess" where a team member might be if you can't find him.

You can use Teamwork as a complimentary skill to Tactics for figuring out what the opposing team is doing.

[Foxx!]

Re: Teamwork

 

I too think there needs to be something for these situations.

 

How about Mind Link with a ‘Teamwork’ Skill Roll and Limited Power ‘limited communication’? But I think INT roll is more appropriate than DEX roll.

 

Cheers!

[Mike W]

Re: Teamwork

 

Well, I'd let them use it to anticipate what their teammates might do, if they think to roll it.

 

I'd also make it easier to coordinate non-combat skills if they were physical in nature(i.e.- trying to hold a building in place or creating a fire break to contain a fire). This does NOT apply to coordinating "mental" skills, like defusing a bomb. This is a classic comic book schtick. Especially for the Avengers. They seem to evacuate an area and contain a threat from environmental factors very efficiently. But all team books have those, "with practiced speed and efficiency our heroes swing into action to contain..." moments.

[Vondy]

Re: Teamwork

 

I think its well worth the cost.

 

I would, however, allow the following:

 

1) executing simultaenous maneuvers (not together) when timing is critical

 

2) meta-gaming omniscience: players always seem to know what the other members of the team are doing / going to do in a fight even if there isn't really a reason for them to. A roll allows them to act on it (representing familiarity and training with one's team mates).

 

3) reading non-verbal, non-explicity body language (hand signs and codes should be a language skill).

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Teamwork

 

Teamwork: The perfect skill for making your GM cry.

[Vondy]

Re: Teamwork

 

Teamwork: The perfect skill for making your GM cry.

 

Have you run into problems with it?

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Teamwork

 

Have you run into problems with it?

High Defense Villain enters the field and makes initial attack. Player 1 and Player 2 half-move forward and attack. Player 1 make teamwork roll. Player 1's hit after defenses does 0 BODY and 3 STUN. Player 2's hit after defenses does 0 BODY and 0 STUN. However, HD Villain is STUNNED from due to Teamwork roll.

 

Next Phase. Villain recovers from being STUNNED. Player 1 half-moves to get better field position. Player 2 rolls and makes Find Weakness roll. Teamwork roll is made. Player 1's attack hits due to angle of attack and does 5 STUN. Player 2's attack hits and after defenses does 12 STUN. Villain is STUNNED due to Teamwork.

 

Next Phase. Villain recovers from being STUNNED. Player 1 half-moves to be behind target. Player 2 holds uses full phase to make two attacks with Rapid Fire. Player 2's first attack (not in teamwork) does 10 STUN. Player 1 and Player 2 manage to make teamwork roll again. Player 1 misses attack, Player 2 makes attack.

 

Next Phase. Villain has 3 STUN. Takes a Recovery on the hopes that he can regain enough strength to pull through. Player 1 and Player 2 do the same trick again. This time Villain aborts next action to Dodge. Teamwork fails. Player 1 hits for 5 STUN. Player 2 hits for 10 STUN. Villain is at -3 STUN.

 

Recap of battle from Villain's perspective:

Half-Move and Attack.

Recovers.

Recovers.

Takes Recovery.

Aborted to Dodge.

 

There were other villains and other players. This was the part that made me hate teamwork.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Teamwork

 

wait just a gol-darned minute here...

Has something changed that I've missed?

In the past coordinating attacks always added damage taken after defences together to see if a target was stunned.

So how could one attack that did 3 stun and another that did 0 stun your villan?

Or am I missing something huge here?

[Vondy]

Re: Teamwork

 

High Defense Villain enters the field and makes initial attack. Player 1 and Player 2 half-move forward and attack. Player 1 make teamwork roll. Player 1's hit after defenses does 0 BODY and 3 STUN. Player 2's hit after defenses does 0 BODY and 0 STUN. However, HD Villain is STUNNED from due to Teamwork roll.

 

Next Phase. Villain recovers from being STUNNED. Player 1 half-moves to get better field position. Player 2 rolls and makes Find Weakness roll. Teamwork roll is made. Player 1's attack hits due to angle of attack and does 5 STUN. Player 2's attack hits and after defenses does 12 STUN. Villain is STUNNED due to Teamwork.

 

Next Phase. Villain recovers from being STUNNED. Player 1 half-moves to be behind target. Player 2 holds uses full phase to make two attacks with Rapid Fire. Player 2's first attack (not in teamwork) does 10 STUN. Player 1 and Player 2 manage to make teamwork roll again. Player 1 misses attack, Player 2 makes attack.

 

Next Phase. Villain has 3 STUN. Takes a Recovery on the hopes that he can regain enough strength to pull through. Player 1 and Player 2 do the same trick again. This time Villain aborts next action to Dodge. Teamwork fails. Player 1 hits for 5 STUN. Player 2 hits for 10 STUN. Villain is at -3 STUN.

 

Recap of battle from Villain's perspective:

Half-Move and Attack.

Recovers.

Recovers.

Takes Recovery.

Aborted to Dodge.

 

There were other villains and other players. This was the part that made me hate teamwork.

 

It happens. Sometimes villians get it handed to them.

 

A potential mechanical solution:

 

Apply lack of weakness as a negative modifier to the teamwork roll (and have high defense villians get some).

 

A potential in-game solution:

 

1) The villian, now aware of the hero's excellent teamwork employs better tactics, purchases a few anoying tricks.

 

Example: Martial Block defined as "soak it." It allows him to shrug off the attacks and go first on the next phase. So the heroes close and coordinate their attack, he soaks it (and whose to say the players know what mechanic is in play when it first happens :evil grin:), he then suprises them by going first on the next phase and grabbing one of them to use as a club (or shield).

 

2) The villain, now aware of the hero's excellent teamwork, plans a *Leeetle* Suprise for them.

 

3) The villian gets some friends and returns the favor.

 

Or my personal favorite:

 

4) All of the above.

 

The fact that the players used a mechanic effectively and caught you off guard doesn't mean the mechanic, in of itself, is problematic. It means you got caught off guard and didn't plan for it. It happens to all of us. And remember, what works for the heroes also works against them.

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Teamwork

 

High Defense Villain enters the field and makes initial attack. Player 1 and Player 2 half-move forward and attack. Player 1 make teamwork roll. Player 1's hit after defenses does 0 BODY and 3 STUN. Player 2's hit after defenses does 0 BODY and 0 STUN. However' date=' HD Villain is STUNNED from due to Teamwork roll.[/quote']

A who to the what now? I think one of us is misreading this rule (I mean, unless HD Villain has a CON of 2). Coordinated attacks add the STUN taken after defenses together to compare to CON for the purpose of being STUNNED. HD Villain took 3 STUN...that's it.

 

Here's the closest FAQ (No BIFOM) entry I can quote:

Q: Does it change how a Coordinated attack works if some attacks do Normal Damage and some Killing, or Hit Locations are used?

 

A: No. Each the attacks involved in a Coordinated attack applies against its relevant defenses in the regular manner, modified by Hit Locations as appropriate, and after you determine the total STUN damage the character takes after applying the relevant defenses to reduce each attack’s damage, add it together to find out if he’s Stunned.

That's the way I've always played it. Did I miss a rule change?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teamwork

 

Seeing as Teamwork is an Agility Skill, and can apply when you are working with anyone, not just the team you have known and worked with for years, I don't tend to use it for things like knowing what your team is doing, communication, etc. If the players want to simulate this, I have them buy a Language or KS or something, or I just use situational modifiers and story.

 

However, I do use Teamwork for more than just coordinated attacks. I use it for activities where characters are attempting to cooperate on any physical activity (as seems appropriate for an Agility Skill). For example, if they are trying to break down a door together, lift a heavy object as a group, climb a mountain while tied together, etc. The Teamwork roll often acts as Complimentary to other things, but in some cases may determine whether the group can do something at all.

[John T]

Re: Teamwork

 

Beating the other local Superteam at Volleyball.

 

John T

[Silbeg]

Re: Teamwork

 

That's the way I've always played it. Did I miss a rule change?

 

Nope... I was surprised by that spurious example...

 

No, coordinated attacks won't do much if you can't penetrate the opponent's defenses... however, I could see some other forms of nastiness...

 

A group of agents, each with, say, 4d6 Penetrating attacks... seven of them, all coordinating, will STUN the average superhero character (assuming they all hit!)

[Silbeg]

Re: Teamwork

 

Oh, I also noticed no mention of Multiple-Attackers bonus? Agents with Teamwork working together to hit their targets better?

 

While teamwork is a good skill for every hero to have, it is essential for good agents.

[Mike W]

Re: Teamwork

 

Teamwork is nasty with large groups of agents. You get a standard agent 5-team working together and most of them will make the roll - giving them a bonus of 3 or 4 to hit. So hitting becomes easy for the agents. You have to really watch their attacks or they can get hideously effective in a hurry.

 

As a player, whatever you do, DO NOT blow that Stealth roll to sneak by the two five teams engaged in a training session. What's that? You rolled 18?

[Storn]

Re: Teamwork

 

What happened to Tactics. I notice both are in the book these days. Sorta redundant.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Teamwork

 

Beating the other local Superteam at Volleyball.

 

John T

Or Dodgeball

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teamwork

 

What happened to Tactics. I notice both are in the book these days. Sorta redundant.

I don't think so. Teamwork is the ability to physically coordinate with others, and is an Agility Skill. Tactics is very much an Intellect Skill. It can be used individually, among a team, or (possibly most effectively) for an entire army. Among other things, Tactics can give you benefits due to positioning (for cover, situational bonuses, etc.), surprise, and even resources.