Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

[The Man]

I posted this question in the rules section and Mr. Long was kind enough to direct me here regarding this subject.

 

I know how to add the damage class of my strength to an advantaged hand attack or advantaged hand killing attack. That is clearly explained on page 272 of FRED. What I dont know is why an advantaged hand killing attack is treated differently from an advantaged hand attack. Will you please explain this?

 

Don't get me wrong, I play a superhero character with an advantaged hand attack (6d6 One Hex Area Effect, No END Cost, Hand Attack with a 30 STR) so I'm not complaining about the rules (and neither was my GM). When another character entered the campaign with a 4d6 NND Hand Attack, 20 STR, and martial arts (with martial strike as his only attack maneuver in the set), the GM started to question the rule (stating it was unbalancing). The player feels he is justified (by the rules) in having a 10d6 NND attack. Are we adding this incorrectly?

 

Thank you in advance and if this is a redundant question, I apologize.

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

I think HA is treated differently because its only purpose is to add dice to STR. It can't be used without STR. Whereas HKA can be used with or without STR.

 

Also, HKA can, at maximum, do double its base DC's. Whereas HA normally has no upper cap; putting advantages on an HA forces it to have the max double thing, too.

[caris]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

I think there might be a conceptual issue. I'm not really sure how Steve, et. al. concieve HA, but the rules seem to imply that they might be percieving it as just a limited form of STR.

[steriaca]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

I think HA is treated differently because its only purpose is to add dice to STR. It can't be used without STR. Whereas HKA can be used with or without STR.

 

Also, HKA can, at maximum, do double its base DC's. Whereas HA normally has no upper cap; putting advantages on an HA forces it to have the max double thing, too.

 

So, why is it that there is no maximum in HA normaly, and then gets a maximum when an advantage is placed on it? And I am not a fan of haveing the player buy a manditory power limitation. Why not just make it a flat 5 per d6, and forbid extra strength with the limatation "Only To Cause Damage"?

 

Well, that is my $0.03.

 

Steriaca.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

What I dont know is why an advantaged hand killing attack is treated differently from an advantaged hand attack.

 

It's basically the same thing.

 

A 4d6 Hand Attack with Armor Piercing should not give 60 STR person, 16d6 attack with Armor Piercing for free. It can give anyone with at least 20 STR, an 8D6 Armor Piercing attack. (However, you can buy AP for your Strength to do more damage.)

 

A 1d6 Hand Killing Attack with Armor Piercing, can do 2D6 if it used by a person with 22 STR. If used by a 60 STR person, it can still only do 2D6 HKA with Armor Piercing.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

Don't get me wrong, I play a superhero character with an advantaged hand attack (6d6 One Hex Area Effect, No END Cost, Hand Attack with a 30 STR) so I'm not complaining about the rules (and neither was my GM). When another character entered the campaign with a 4d6 NND Hand Attack, 20 STR, and martial arts (with martial strike as his only attack maneuver in the set), the GM started to question the rule (stating it was unbalancing). The player feels he is justified (by the rules) in having a 10d6 NND attack. Are we adding this incorrectly?

 

Let me be certain that I understand what the other player has.

 

He has 20 STR

Martial STRIKE

and a 4D6 HA with NND modifier

 

That is 2d6 NND from the STR + 1d6 NND from the MA (if allowable by the GM) +4d6 NND for the HA =7d6 NND. That is a pretty rocking attack. It does as you are aware 14DC which is the equivalent of a 70AP power.

 

The math is wrong because you have to "prorate" your STR and DCs from maneuvers to apply them to the HA. The same would apply to Armor Piercing or some other advantages.

 

Another point is that MA manuevers are a special case. Some GMs will not allow them to be upped by HA at all. I am one of them. Damage Classes at 4 pts a pop are what are required for these puppies, and those would require 2 DC to add to the NND punch. I think your MA friend is trying to cheat the system.

 

Hawksmoor

[Zed-F]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

No, you don't have to prorate your STR for adding to the HA, according to FRED p.272.

 

"A character who has a Power Advantage on an HA (or other Normal Damage attack to which STR is added) does not also have to buy that Advantage for his STR if the character only uses his STR up to the unmodified Active Point value of the HA.... Thus, if a character has STR 15 and a +3d6 HA (15 Active Points), he doesn't have to purchase any Advantage purchased for the HA for his STR."

 

The same rules do not apply for HKAs. There, STR is prorated for advantaged HKAs.

 

I am not sure how a martial maneuver would add to this; however, since you're now going over the unmodified AP total of the base HA, I would say you either lose the extra dice or else you lose the advantage for going over double the base HA's number of dice, also as per FRED p.272.

 

In any case, the attack basically amounts to a 80-100AP attack, regardless of how he purchased it. He's already getting a massive points savings from exploiting the HA rules, but an 8d6 NND attack is likely going to break campaign maxima. If so, he scales it back or you two have to have a serious conversation.

[Christougher]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

A while ago, one of the regulars posted a document that went into all the gory details about how to apply all the damage from various sources. Just the fact that such a document was needed says to me that things are a little too complicated.

 

If I wrote the rules, adding damage would take about two sentences. The character has one base attack, all forms of adding damage can only double the base attack. Killing attacks or attacks with advantages must be the base attack, any added damage must be prorated to pay for the advantages.

 

A 20 STR Speedster with +4d6 HA and 30" Running would max his moveby at 12d6; his movethrough would be 18d6, and could be pushed to reach its 20d6 maximum.

 

A 60 STR Brick who picked up a +4d6 AP Hand Attack could do either 8d6 AP or 16d6.

[The Man]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

I appreciate the responses. Thank you.

 

8d6 NND? OK, it seems I didn't add something properly....

 

So let us see if I have this right;

My character has a 30 STR and has purchased a 6d6 Hand Attack with Area of Effect-One Hex (accurate, +1/2) and No END Cost (+1/2). I won't get into the power limitations. In the end, using this power at full strength will make this a 12d6 One Hex Accurate, No END attack (the 30 STR is equal to the unmodified active point cost of the Hand Attack of 30).

 

Another character has a 30 STR and has purchased a 2d6 Hand Killing Attack with Armor Piercing (+1/2) and No END Cost (+1/2). Again, we won't worry about limitations. Using the Hand Killing Attack at full strength will make it a 3d6 Armor Piercing Killing Attack costing No END (?). One DC of the advantaged Hand Killing Attack is worth 10 active points (5 base active multiplied by the advantages for Armor Piercing +1/2 and No END Cost +1/2). Since it takes 10 active points to get one DC of the advantaged HKA, a 30 STR will provide three DCs or an additional 1d6 advantaged HKA. Thank all goodness I have Hero Designer to calculate this.

 

The last character has a 20 STR, martial arts with Martial Strike (adds two DC's to his STR damage when attacking with the maneuver) as his only offensive attack in the set, and has purchased a 4d6 Hand Attack with a No Normal Defense advantage (+1). Once again, limitations are not a factor. Now at full strength, I thought the attack was 10d6 NND. The 20 STR is equal to the base active cost of the Hand Attack (20), allowing the character to apply the full 4d6 from his STR to the base 4d6 NND Hand Attack. The additional two dice comes from the Martial Strike Maneuver. If so, that would make the attack 10d6 NND (not 8d6 NND).

 

Are these examples correct? If so, does anybody see anything wrong with them?

 

I have a headache...........

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

Personally, when I buy an advantaged HA it's usually so I can simulate a naked STR advantage, but still put it in a framework. To that end, unless a character has a Damn Good Reason, I only allow the d6 of the advantaged HA to be half of the character's STR d6, so the damage ends up being just STR damage with an advantage. Of course, I might make exceptions more readily if the HA wasn't in a framework.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

I've never understood the logic behind the 5ed way of adding damage. I'm still using the old 4th edition until I can by HD to do the math for me.

[Blue]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

After having someone point this out in another thread, I purposely made the decision to ignore the rule and pro-rate everything.

[pinecone]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

Hmmm...One, I beleive that an advantaged HA is limited to 2X base so HA 4D6 NND can do a max of 8D6 NND, Two check the FAQ, cause I beleive that NND is an exeption to the usual add the str equation (ie: you prorate str for NND) so nerve master Fong has 30 str, MA (say plus 2D6) and a HA 4D6 NND does 8D6 NND or 12 D6 regular, Fong's choice, if STR is prorated then fong does 7D6 NND plus any aplicable MA, with a maximum of 8D6.....if the game has damage limits Maybe theres a problem, but I'd have no problem with an 8D6 NND, especially if it's a focus....like most things in Hero, each game sets its own tone and limits.....

[The Man]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

Well, I looked through the FAQ file and I could not find anything regarding how STR, NNDs, and the Hand Attack interact. I also am having difficulty locating any definitive ruling on applying martial arts to the Hand Attack. Maybe it is in one of the martial arts books? If anyone can point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it.

[The Man]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

I forgot to add this to my last post.

 

According to Pinecone's post, DCs (or dice) from martial arts maneuvers counts towards the doubling of the Hand Attack (or would that be STR)? If so, I was not aware of that.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

I forgot to add this to my last post.

 

According to Pinecone's post, DCs (or dice) from martial arts maneuvers counts towards the doubling of the Hand Attack (or would that be STR)? If so, I was not aware of that.

It gets funky here and depends on Heroic/Superheroic rules. Weapons, regardless of HA or HKA cannot more than double their damage (heroic games), but HA bought through a Focus just adds to the damage...

 

I've found rules for Martial Arts that say the DCs add to the base weapon before doubling damage and some that say it doesn't, and I can't make heads or tails of when what happens. I run superheroic games so for me it doesnt' matter and HA always adds to damage and I couldn't care less about doubling. HKA can't be more than doubled. In either case, STR is always prorated and Martial Arts DCs are not (although they are cut in half for KAs, NNDs and similar).

[Col. Orange]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

I appreciate the responses. Thank you.

 

8d6 NND? OK, it seems I didn't add something properly....

 

So let us see if I have this right;

 

My character has a 30 STR and has purchased a 6d6 Hand Attack with Area of Effect-One Hex (accurate, +1/2) and No END Cost (+1/2). I won't get into the power limitations. In the end, using this power at full strength will make this a 12d6 One Hex Accurate, No END attack (the 30 STR is equal to the unmodified active point cost of the Hand Attack of 30).

 

Yup. Think he still uses the 3 END for his STR though.

 

 

Another character has a 30 STR and has purchased a 2d6 Hand Killing Attack with Armor Piercing (+1/2) and No END Cost (+1/2). Again' date=' we won't worry about limitations. Using the Hand Killing Attack at full strength will make it a 3d6 Armor Piercing Killing Attack costing No END (?). One DC of the advantaged Hand Killing Attack is worth 10 active points (5 base active multiplied by the advantages for Armor Piercing +1/2 and No END Cost +1/2). Since it takes 10 active points to get one DC of the advantaged HKA, a 30 STR will provide three DCs or an additional 1d6 advantaged HKA. Thank all goodness I have Hero Designer to calculate this.[/quote']

 

3D6 +1 HKA, AP. Again using 3 END for base STR. Pretty sure the prorating is based on damage effecting advantages.

*Pushing STR (by 8), he could get 3 1/2 D6 (or 4D6 -1) of AP HKA.

*Using Offensive Strike (4 Normal, so 2 Killing DCs, which aren't prorated further) he could get 4D6 AP (at which point he'd have maxed the possible damage, so no point pushing).

 

 

The last character has a 20 STR' date=' martial arts with Martial Strike (adds two DC's to his STR damage when attacking with the maneuver) as his only offensive attack in the set, and has purchased a 4d6 Hand Attack with a No Normal Defense advantage (+1). Once again, limitations are not a factor. Now at full strength, I thought the attack was 10d6 NND. The 20 STR is equal to the base active cost of the Hand Attack (20), allowing the character to apply the full 4d6 from his STR to the base 4d6 NND Hand Attack. The additional two dice comes from the Martial Strike Maneuver. If so, that would make the attack 10d6 NND (not 8d6 NND).[/quote']

 

Damage maxed at 8D6 NND. M.Strike would just be there for the lovely DCV topping.

 

Personally, I'd prorate STR any weird power that didn't have a "standard" (normal PD or normal ED) defense, not just for Killing Attacks - If they can justify it for HKA they sure as carp can justify it for NND.

So... 2D6 STR + 4D6 NND HA + 1/2 D6 M.Strike = 6 1/2 D6.

[pinecone]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

Sorry man, I'm short on time with the magic bax...I'm pretty sure I remember a big chunk o'FAQ on HA and NND being one you do prorate for...I personally limit advantaged HA to 2X, based of metarule , but I also beleive that is official, my "Bar fighter cosmic" Fury has a 4D6 HA AP and does 8D6 AP or 10D6 regilar with his strength of 30 (it gets higher when he mad ) so at least one other person does it that way, if I get time this week I'll try to find it....

[pinecone]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

Ohh I treat MA as part of the pro-rate unless it is directly additive so if nearve master Fong has a Nearve strike them it would stack on top, otherwise its just like strength....YMMV....

[The Man]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

OK, I think I see the jist of it.

 

It makes sense that you would have to expend END for using your STR, even if the Hand Attack is bought with no END cost.

 

Thank you everyone for your responses.

 

Pinecone, what department do you work for?

[pinecone]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

I am currently employed by the oregon department of transportation.Rumors persist that we will be swallowed up by OSP. But for now I work as a weighmaster, way less stress......

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

A while ago' date=' one of the regulars posted a document that went into all the gory details about how to apply all the damage from various sources. *SNIP*[/quote']

 

Here is the aforementioned document, courtesy of our own Talon. It helps quite a bit to keep things straight:

[The Man]

Re: Hand Killing Attack/Hand Attack

 

Lord Liadon, I thank you for sharing the document. This looks like something that may resolve some questions within our group.

 

Pinecone: Less stressful perhaps but not less useful, it's all part of one big fraternity. I myself am a patrol dog through and through. I love the street, which I don't plan on leaving anytime soon, and I look forward to the challenges presented to me each day. Anyway, thank you for your input.