Block Maneuver Silliness...

[etherio]

Hey fellow Herophiles...

 

We have for years occasionally run across a problem where a player wants to use a block maneuver against something ridiculous...Xandarr the fantasy martial-artist and his triple-iron vs. the jaws of wyverns the size of clydesdales, Photon the normal-strength super hero vs. a 50STR goon of King Cobra, etc. I know there are rules about weapon breakage that control this somewhat, but there seems to be no real mechanism for determining if a guy is capable of blocking an attack other than comparative OCV. Of course, GM watchfulness is important, but its often arbitrary. It could seem especially unfair in a supers game where points are paid for everything and special effect probably shouldn't make one character's block maneuver crappier than another's.

 

How do you folks handle this in your games? Do you have any good house rules for drawing the line?

 

Please share,

etherio

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

Actually I find the Block rules appropriate. I only use HERO system for Superheroes so it fits. Heroes are over the top as it were. A Martial Artist can Martial Block Grond, it makes me not the slightest bit worried about the integrity of the game. I might even allow a block vs. a Ranged Attack with the right description and SFX.

 

Hawksmoor

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

Block doesn't necessarily represent literally sticking your hand or an object up to stop someone from hitting you. It's just avoiding the attack in some way, SFX to be determined by the circumstances. So yeah, the little guy can block the mega-attack.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

FYI, there was a similar thread last month labeled 'fist vs. train'

[Solomon]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

Block doesn't necessarily represent literally sticking your hand or an object up to stop someone from hitting you. It's just avoiding the attack in some way' date=' SFX to be determined by the circumstances. So yeah, the little guy can block the mega-attack.[/quote']

 

What he said.

[etherio]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

I realize the whole rationalization bit for SFX, but that gets a bit stretched sometimes. I just wondered how other HERO gamers treated this subject. I never saw that other thread...maybe I'll take a peek.

[Black Rose]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

I'm sure something could be done with Knockback and such, at least on the Superheroic end. I mean seriously, if Joe Watanabe tries to Block a punch from Grond, he's going to experience the joy of flight... uncontrolled flight, but there you are.

[Mentor]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

Yah, what Black Rose said. I do agree that block represents a wide array of SFX, but, as previous posters so well stated, some attacks are just to be avoided and without any combat advantage for the next phase. I realize some players think they can use a block maneuver on a locomotive and still have their movement and combat bonuses intact, but if the PC doesn't dodge or get out of the way in our campaign, they better be a Brick because they are going to have a lot of dice fall on their head if the attack hits.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

I realize the whole rationalization bit for SFX' date=' but that gets a bit stretched sometimes. I just wondered how other HERO gamers treated this subject. I never saw that other thread...maybe I'll take a peek.[/quote']

 

I can specifically address one of your examples -- the martial artist blocking the biting wyvern. You see this done all the time in movies -- the ever popular "stick a board/pipe/something long enough in their mouth so they can't close it" trick.

 

As for Grond vs a martial artist in a super heroic campaign? Again, it's a matter of special effect. Perhaps the martial artist "blocks" by redirecting the blow slightly, or by rolling with it enough that it doesn't actually hurt, or by jumping up so high the blow misses, or by performing an impossibly fast acrobatic move...

 

This is the HERO System. Don't let the fact that the manuever is named "Block" limit you. It's just a mechanic. It's just a mechanic. Keep saying that like a mantra if necessary

 

Of course, had I been responsible for Grond's writeup he'd have several "Hard to Block" levels (5-point levels bought with "only to increase OCV against blocks" at -1 1/2). That's a fairly common brick trick in writeups I do (my rewrite of Ironclad has 2 of them for example).

[Vorsch]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

A block defined as not being hit is called a dodge, theres a mechanic for that as well.

 

SFX is one thing, linguistic redefinition is quite another.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

A block defined as not being hit is called a dodge, theres a mechanic for that as well.

 

SFX is one thing, linguistic redefinition is quite another.

 

Actually, no. Dodge is defined as 'becoming harder to hit'. Block is when you actively do something that, if successful, 'negates the attack'. Those are different mechanics.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

A block defined as not being hit is called a dodge, theres a mechanic for that as well.

 

SFX is one thing, linguistic redefinition is quite another.

 

IMHO, it's not linguistic redefinition so much as giving SFX the appropriate game-mechanic label.

 

For example, simply avoiding an attack, thereby making yourself harder to hit, would be called a Dodge. Avoiding an attack in such a way that your attacker is left off-balance and open to your first-strike counterattack, would be called a Block.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

Addressing the subject of the thread directly: for PCs who define the SFX of their Block Maneuver as actually putting a part of their body in the way of the attack, I've had success with assessing a penalty based on the relative Strengths of the opponents. For every multiple of the Blocking character's Strength that the attacker is using to attack, the defender suffers a -1 penalty to the Block. So, if a STR 20 character tries to Block a blow from a STR 60 opponent, his Maneuver is at -3 OCV. Believe it or not, given the choice some players will actually take that penalty for the sake of added realism. A variant of this method would be similar to that used for Mental Powers: -1 to the Block for each +10 STR the attacker has greater than the defender (it's grainier this way, but the penalties add up faster). If you want a narrower definition of Block, you could decree that this applies to all uses of Block in your campaign. It would be a factor much more often in superheroic than heroic games, though.

 

Since the 5E Bestiary came out, I've also been experimenting with Block penalties based on the Size Templates for creatures larger than human on pp. 26-27 of that book: -1 for Large, -2 for Enormous, -3 for Huge etc. Given the common Strength ranges for heroic characters, that squares fairly well with my Strength-multiple method above.

[Gary]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

One thing that can limit some of the silliness is that area effects can't be blocked. So a martial artist can't block a train or Godzilla.

[lemming]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

Warning: RL intruding.

 

When I was taking karate, we'd often spar, etc... One item that was interesting was when someone small would block one of my attacks (I'm 6'8" and at the time, was well built). A good block was one that guided my attack away from a serious impact and often set them up for a counter. A bad block would be trying to stop my attack and usually would wind up with them getting hit anyway.

[BlackSword]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

Warning: RL intruding.

 

When I was taking karate, we'd often spar, etc... One item that was interesting was when someone small would block one of my attacks (I'm 6'8" and at the time, was well built). A good block was one that guided my attack away from a serious impact and often set them up for a counter. A bad block would be trying to stop my attack and usually would wind up with them getting hit anyway.

Yes!

 

Kill Bill vol 2 has an excellent bad block, they hit their swords edge to edge, just ruined two swords. Lord Liaden has it pretty well and lemming provided a good real life reason. Think of the difference as what is the goal(in Hero-speak, what is the effect) of this manuvuer.

 

A block could be physically interacting with a manuever in order to put your opponent off balance. Either physically stopping a punch to leave an opponents midsection open. Moving under a round kick to get behind the oponent. The goal of a block is to get a tactical advantage.

 

A dodge would be stepping slightly back so the PC is out of range or otherwise concentrating on defending. Wildly flailing so that the person doesn't know where to hit you increases your defense but does not improve your ability to hit the opponent. The goal of a dodge is to maximize your defense.

[zornwil]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

Yah' date=' what Black Rose said. I do agree that block represents a wide array of SFX, but, as previous posters so well stated, some attacks are just to be avoided and without any combat advantage for the next phase. I realize some players think they can use a block maneuver on a locomotive and still have their movement and combat bonuses intact, but if the PC doesn't dodge or get out of the way in our campaign, they better be a Brick because they are going to have a lot of dice fall on their head if the attack hits.[/quote']

Good example as to the limitations of block and the importance of SFX. I agree, I do it all SFX-based. I haven't seen much trouble with block, myself.

[ChuckB]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

I think you're worrying too much about nothing; the block rules are one of the more balanced aspects of the system.

 

I can only see getting irked if the pcs start metagaming the whole block dex delay-factor if the pc and attacker have the same spd.

[KA.]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

Okay, my two pence.

 

Dodge - Total Defense. Jump, move, wriggle, to get of the way of any attack that is aimed at you. HTH, Ranged, whatever. Quick random movements to make you harder to hit. You are matching your ability do move against your opponents ability to aim.

 

Block - Tactical Defense. Only against a HTH attack (or attacks) that you perceive. Less of a bonus to DCV, because you are trying to match your fighting skill (OCV) against your opponent's fighting skill, to gain an advantage.

 

Can any attack be Blocked?

Yes!

Because "Block" is not "Stop the force of the blow by sticking part of your body in the way",

any more than "Strike" is a "right cross" and nothing else.

 

Dodge means "disengage", get out of the way. Which means that you are not in a good position to counter-attack. This is the response of basically every unskilled fighter you ever see in a sudden combat situation in the movies. They back off and start moving, trying to desperately get out of the way.

(Not that skilled fighters don't Dodge, they just look a little more dignified doing it.)

 

Block means "stay engaged, using your combat skill to avoid attacks, while getting in a good position to attack" This is what you see in a lot of Jackie Chan movies, for one thing. (Especially in the more comic parts) He will stay right in the villain's face, staying out of the way of way of his blows and counter attacking, often with slaps, pokes, etc.

He isn't actually touching the villain to ward off the blows, he is just using his superior skill to out-think his opponent, and get in the next shot.

 

Let's take another situation.

 

The Avengers (from several years ago) are having a meeting.

Captain America, Hawkeye, and Goliath are talking about something.

Hawkeye makes a rude comment to Goliath who promptly goes nuts and grows to 12' tall, spoiling for a fight with anyone in reach.

They are all quite close together.

Goliath decides to smash Hawkeye, in order to make him shut up.

Hawkeye knows that he is much better at Range than HTH, so he just wants to get out of the way. He Dodges, trying to put some distance between him and Goliath.

Captain America chooses to wait, since these things often end rather quickly.

 

Next round.

Hawkeye is not really ready to shoot Goliath with a Blast Arrow, so he just makes more smart remarks.

Captain America is still waiting.

Goliath, still nuts, decides to smash Captain America, just because he is standing there.

Captain America could Dodge, getting himself out of the way, but he is getting tired of this and wants to teach Goliath some manners. So he decides to Block.

He holds his ground, watching Goliath to see where the next blow will land.

He moves just enough that the blow misses him, then prepares to counter-attack before Goliath can regain his stance.

 

He does NOT stick his arm in the way of Goliath's mighty fist, he just uses superior skill to avoid the blow and retain a tactical advantage.

 

If Goliath had grown to his full 25' height, making his fists Area Effect, then Cap would be forced to Dive for Cover, since the fist is so big that you cannot accurately position yourself where it "just misses" you.

 

That's how I have always played it, anyway.

 

KA.

[pawsplay]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

Some example SFX for a human-sized martial artist blocking the claws of a huge wyvern or dragon:

 

- The martial artist waits for the last possible second, then steps out of the way, causing the creature to pound the dirt or rock behind him and catching the creature off-balance.

- The claws close around the hero, but catch on the ground around him. The hero's strength and resolve keep the creature from closing his grip, so the creature must make a new grab.

- The creature snatches at the hero, who steps into its grasp, but extends his arms east and west, using his whole body to prevent the claws from closing.

- The creature slashes, but the hero sidesteps and hits the sides of the claws where they are not sharp.

- The creature claws at him, but he ducks and kicks its ankle.

[Oruncrest]

Re: Block Maneuver Silliness...

 

But you forgot the classic:

 

The Martial Artist leaps onto the claws as the beast attacks, then he stands on the creature's arm, looking bored.