Yamo Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 I hadn't had much exposure to pre-5th Edition HERO prior to thsi last week, where I ran across an excellent-condition copy of Champions 4th at a used bookstore for only $6.00. I picked it up, of course, and by the time I was done reading it, I was amazed! More specifically, I was amazed at how dreadfully written and organized the whole book was when compared to HERO 5th. The contrast is striking. The Powers had fewer useful applications (no "Only To Protect Against X" Desolidification, for example), and their more fuzzy interactions were tricky to adjucate at best. The lack of sample Powers makes the whole package vastly less user-friendly. Not to mention in some of the character writeups, with origin story gems like this one for Starburst: "Then came the fateful day when Pulsar showed up, acting out some scheme to impress the latest media vixen. Naturally, there was an accident, and Adams was caught in the middle and acquired superpowers." Uh, yeah. Naturally. Anyway, kudos to Steve Long and company for elevating the HERO System from something that would have turned me off straightaway to to something that hooked me from page one. Good job elevating FREd so far above its predecessors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Celt Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 Man, you should have been there for first edition. 4th edition was a major step up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa Nadazdy Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 Ah yes... 1st edition Champions.... cheesy HERO goodness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 It's really an illustration of gaming quantum mechanics: every edition of Hero/Champions has built on what has gone before, and drawn upon the advances in rpg philosophy as a whole, as well as improved production values and increased experience and maturity by writers in the field. Believe me, 4th Ed. was a quantum leap beyond the Hero stuff that preceded it, and at the forefront of universal game systems for its day. Just as 5th Ed. is now. In another ten or twelve years? Who can imagine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelijal Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 That's also what's happened with D&D, right? I mean, AD&D 3.5 and d20 must be light-years beyond the 1e AD&D I played over twenty years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nblade Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Originally posted by Nelijal That's also what's happened with D&D, right? I mean, AD&D 3.5 and d20 must be light-years beyond the 1e AD&D I played over twenty years ago. I'm sure that a matter of one's POV. I'd have to say yes and no to that question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelijal Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Originally posted by nblade I'm sure that a matter of one's POV. I'd have to say yes and no to that question. I. . . was. . . joking. If D&D had made such great advancements, I wouldn't have spent the last two decades playing RoleMaster and HERO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Law Dog Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 1st edition was indeed intimidating. With all the acronyms and words like "pip", if you didn;t have somebody to teach it to you, it was like learning a foreign language. The font they used on the first edition also made it look more like a technical manual than an RPG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelijal Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Originally posted by Law Dog 1st edition was indeed intimidating. With all the acronyms and words like "pip", if you didn;t have somebody to teach it to you, it was like learning a foreign language. The font they used on the first edition also made it look more like a technical manual than an RPG. I think the award for acronyms goes to first edition Chivalry & Sorcery. Between all the abbreviations and the micro-size typewriter text, it was a bear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Originally posted by Nelijal I think the award for acronyms goes to first edition Chivalry & Sorcery. Between all the abbreviations and the micro-size typewriter text, it was a bear. That was put out by FGU, who also put out Space Opera. It had more acronyms per square centimeter than any game I ever saw. Made the Unix man pages look explicit. I gave up on it because it was essentially unreadable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 There are some pros and cons, I think, between 4th and 5th. 5th is a much meatier book. Plenty of examples, much clearer power and skill descriptions, some rules changes that needed to be made (and a few that really shoudn't have). 5th is a much denser book. 4th, however, had better layout. I have the damnedest time finding things in the 5th ed book, not because it's disorganized, but because not much effort went into setting sections apart from each other. Maybe my eyesight is just getting worse, but I never had any trouble instantly finding the paragraph I wanted in the BBB; in Fred, I've had trouble even picking out the cost breakdown that's supposed to be at the end of each power description. 4th also had much better artwork--none of this computer-rendered mannequin crap that seems to be all the rage in gaming circles today. This last, of course, is a matter of opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nblade Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Originally posted by Arthur Made the Unix man pages look explicit. What they are not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nblade Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Originally posted by Old Man 4th, however, had better layout. I have the damnedest time finding things in the 5th ed book, not because it's disorganized, but because not much effort went into setting sections apart from each other. Maybe my eyesight is just getting worse, but I never had any trouble instantly finding the paragraph I wanted in the BBB; in Fred, I've had trouble even picking out the cost breakdown that's supposed to be at the end of each power description. 4th also had much better artwork--none of this computer-rendered mannequin crap that seems to be all the rage in gaming circles today. This last, of course, is a matter of opinion. I have to agree. Sometime I'm looking for a limiation or advantage and I'll be darned its not in the limiations nor advantage section, but in the Attack power or other section. Sometimes drives me made. But like all things I cope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Originally posted by Law Dog 1st edition was indeed intimidating. With all the acronyms and words like "pip", if you didn;t have somebody to teach it to you, it was like learning a foreign language. The font they used on the first edition also made it look more like a technical manual than an RPG. I think that much of this memory is influenced by its novelty at the time compared to other RPGs. I think if someone picked up 5th ed back then, it would seem even more alien. I think 5th is harder to follow than the first book, though admittedly it's been a long time since I looked at that. I think 4th was much easier to read overall. I appreciate that 5th makes some powers more consistent as well as being more inclusive of some high-end powers not quite addressed before. Personally I think 3rd is still the best edition, because despite flaws in it in terms of internal consistency and gaps/holes, I think the gaps/holes really encouraged people to extrapolate from the rules in a positive way. Subsequent editions have turned too much into standard rules and have created some cheesier powers (or at least 5th did at the high), undue tweaking, and not enough encouragement of GMs filling in holes and winging it. That sounds pretty negative but I don't mean it quite as it sounds. As stated above, 5th does introduce some good things and it is still one of the better games around in the RPG world. I think 5th would have been better served by a more narrative approach, slightly better organization, and moving many of the powers/advantages into an optional section, along with alternate versions of those so no canonical version exists (megascale in particular comes to mind). Those changes are actually rather minor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Originally posted by nblade Unix man pages: What they are not? Oh you a funny boy!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 I always prefered the little blue book over the BBB in 4th Edition, and I could find ANYTHING in that book in 2 seconds flat. 5th Edition is overall a superior product (I mean, its made out of QUESTIONITE for crying out loud; what other game company can make that claim?) but I cant find the inside covers of the book without a flashlight and a spare pair of hands. Its a damn big book PLUS some of the bits are oddly scattered. Still and all though, you can have my FREd when you pry it from my cold dead fingers. The main rulebooks notwithstanding, I unilaterally agree that all of the other supplements DOJ has put out are superior to all but the creme de la creme of all previous versions of Champions/HEROs put together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackCobra Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Originally posted by Arthur That was put out by FGU, who also put out Space Opera. It had more acronyms per square centimeter than any game I ever saw. Then obviously you have not seen Mythos (a Gary Gygax special that came out about 6-8 years ago). Every single thing in that game had an abbreviation and each was completely arcane. So arcane, in fact, that I can't recall any of them --- but trust me, they sucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Originally posted by Arthur That was put out by FGU, who also put out Space Opera. It had more acronyms per square centimeter than any game I ever saw. Made the Unix man pages look explicit. I gave up on it because it was essentially unreadable. Huh...never had any problem with either. But then again, I also don't have any problems with UNIX man pages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenstar Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 When talking about unreadable acronyms, don't forget Fallout...which, come to think of it, might have been an FGU product as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Originally posted by zornwil IPersonally I think 3rd is still the best edition, because despite flaws in it in terms of internal consistency and gaps/holes, I think the gaps/holes really encouraged people to extrapolate from the rules in a positive way. You think 3rd Edition is the best because it has more flaws? Interesting reasoning... You know, you'll get rich if you give me money. Worth a shot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuscaDomestica Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 I know 5th ed it is sometimes harder to find things but that Index is so nice and has spoiled me for almost any other RPG index. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdbase Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by MuscaDomestica I know 5th ed it is sometimes harder to find things but that Index is so nice and has spoiled me for almost any other RPG index. All praise to the Genius that decided to put a detailed index into FREd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by Thirdbase All praise to the Genius that decided to put a detailed index into FREd. Steeeeve E. Coyote... SOOOOPER GEEEENIUUS!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 And Acme stockholder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephron Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by BlackCobra Then obviously you have not seen Mythos (a Gary Gygax special that came out about 6-8 years ago). Every single thing in that game had an abbreviation and each was completely arcane. So arcane, in fact, that I can't recall any of them --- but trust me, they sucked. Worse than World of Synnabar ? I find that scary.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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