Comeliness?

[Jarekk]

First, I'd like to say if this is the wrong place for this thread, I'm sorry--I guessed.

 

 

Basically, I'm confused about comeliness. I mean, I know what it is... But, as far as I can tell, it's completely useless. It doesn't DO anything, except let players write off three points by being ugly, or use up three and be pretty.

 

Meanwhile, we have presence... Presence seems too broad, to me. To me, kicking in a door and intimidating someone is COMPLETELY different than fast talking and salesmanship.

 

So, why comeliness, and not charisma?

 

Am I the only one who sees presence as being too broad?

 

I'd appreciate any and all opinions on the matter, and thanks for reading.

 

(I hate being a newbie--but it seems every board I join...)

 

(%)

[lemming]

Re: Comeliness?

 

Everybody is a newbie somewhere at least once if not constantly. Welcome aboard, keep your arms, legs, and tentacles inside the ride at all times.

 

On Comliness: A lot of people don't like it for reasons you state. I use it as a basis on looks, modified by cicumstances.

 

Presence: Force of personality.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Comeliness?

 

Don't worry about being a newbie. I had played the game for almost ten years before I discovered the boards and sometimes I barely recognized the game people were discussing

 

As for COM -- not just a few GM's ignore it completely, or handle it as a perk. I won't see that represents a majority but it seems to be more than a "mere" minority.

 

On PRE being too broad -- PRE is the closest thing HERO has to Charisma. It pails in usefulness to STR (which costs the same). PRE Attacks are very short-lived in effect, while PRE-skills last longer.

 

Personally I give bonuses for COM (+1 or +1d6 per 5 points above/below 10 to applicable skills/PRE attacks) and play it up somewhat -- if you don't have a 14 COM you have no business in tights and NPC's will tell you that

 

/humor on

Trust me on something else -- once you see some of the other point-wrangling tricks people pull, a couple extra points for being ugly will look like nothing

/humor off

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Comeliness?

 

If it seems appropriate, I'll use Comeliness rolls as complimentary to an Interaction skill (particularly seduction ... I know, that probably sounds a little piggish of me, but let's be realistic here). On the other hand, low Comelinesses usually take penalties there, if appropriate (A low COM from having some broken teeth, a scar, and a flat nose may get you bonuses if you're dealing with street thugs, for example ... but being a stunningly handsome prettyboy in the same situation probably isn't going to help).

 

I will admit, though, for the most part, I don't put a whole lot of stock in Comeliness, but I've had few players take a COM hit without good reason, and most shoot for the 14-18 range (and I once played someone with a 30, just because).

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Comeliness?

 

Ways that I use comeliness:

 

1) If you are making a Seduction roll or a Social skill for more pleasant influences AND you are of the target's sexual preference, a COM roll is complementary to the skill roll so long as you declare you want to try.

 

2) Some NPCs prefer a pretty face. This means that when dealing with NPC interactions, they will pick and trust the character with the highest COM.

 

3) If a Presense attack is sex appeal in nature, instead of beating the target's Ego or Pre, you could apply it to COM.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Comeliness?

 

(I hate being a newbie--but it seems every board I join...)

 

(%)

Don't sweat being the new guy. Everyone has to make a first post. Lemming's 12,000+ post count only means he's 12,000 times better than you are. However, once you've posted for a second time, you cut that lead to a mere 6,000 times.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Comeliness?

 

Welcome, Jarekk! I'd say you found just the right place to post your question, and folks here are always happy to answer them.

 

As it stands in the official rules, you're right; Comeliness doesn't have much of a game mechanic effect. It's kind of a system legacy thing... it's just always been there, mostly as it is now. There have been a few attempts to give it more value in various incarnations of HERO System over the years. The complimentary roll with certain Skills, and the effect of negative COM, are remnants of that in the current system.

 

HERO gamers take many different approaches to dealing with COM: everything from using it as a general guide to how to roleplay a character's looks, to extrapolating game mechanics for it, to substituting a Perk or a Disadvantage based on looks, to just ignoring it altogether and not charging characters any points for it.

 

If you do a word search for "Comeliness," you'll find many discussions of these points. You should feel free to choose whatever works best for your games.

[Blackjack]

Re: Comeliness?

 

Just to present the "opposite" view to the ones already well-articulated here, please let me offer the following:

 

I do like having the Comliness characteristic. As stated earlier, PRE reflects force of personality, while COM reflects physical attractiveness. There have been MANY examples of people who, while not attractive, certainly had enormous charisma (ie. many current or historical political leaders, fictional characters like Gandalf from the _Lord of the the Rings_, etc.) As well, we all surely know of people who are physically beautiful, but lack substance. While you can simulate such things solely through role-playing, having both characteristics allows a mechanical construct for such characters.

 

Also, while Interaction skills are all PRE-based, the GM may, if the circumstances allow, use a COM roll as a complement. This is particularly useful in situations like those I discussed above, allowing a person weak in one area but strong in the other to compensate.

 

Finally, welcome to the Boards!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Comeliness?

 

On PRE being too broad -- PRE is the closest thing HERO has to Charisma. It pails in usefulness to STR (which costs the same). PRE Attacks are very short-lived in effect' date=' while PRE-skills last longer.[/quote']

 

Actually, the duration of PRE attacks is a point I've often wondered about. The way that some of the results of those attacks are described in the rulebook - particularly the +20 and +30 effects - make them sound like they should persist for some time, but the duration is never specified. I once asked Steve Long a rule question about this:

 

Q. A character who suffers an EGO +20 or +30 Presence Attack suffers a DCV penalty, may obey commands, may surrender or run away, etc. How long does the character continue to behave this way after the initial Presence Attack?

 

A. The answer is: as long as seems appropriate to the GM. Presence Attacks are pretty situation-specific things, so this seems to me like something best left to the benevolent wisdom of the referee.

 

For my part, I run the results much like the lingering effects of Mental Powers: after the initial Phase of effect, the victim gets to make a Presence or Ego roll (whichever is higher) to throw it off on his next Phase, then his next Turn etc., with the same bonus over time as for Mental Powers. Just seems consistent to me.

[trechriron]

Re: Comeliness?

 

Like many things in this fun wide world of gaming, the spirit behind all these characteristics pales in comparison to the wholesome desire to crunch numbers in the most effective manner possible.

 

IS Comeliness useful? It depends on how the GM is running the game. If your game focuses more on combat, then it is probably not going to have as much (if any) impact. Presence attacks can be useful, if the GM is willing to look at the modifiers and apply them appropriately (in terms of dice based on actions and situation during the attack). In general a straight Presence attack without any mitigating factors is generally not as effective (numbers-wise, this being for Heroic games. Super Heroes with a 30 PRE could make some ugly attacks...). Same goes with Skills for that matter. HERO is about color. Description, reasoning from effect, taking the numbers and turning them into stuff in your imagined reality. If you want a Comeliness 20 to have an impact on your game, then by all means make sure you give it an impact in your game. I actually think PRE attacks are a cool aspect of HERO. Not many games have a mechanic like it, it is nifty if you’re willing to use it.

 

Some ideas to make COM have more impact. Make NPCs reluctant to hurt someone who is beautiful under certain circumstances (“I would never hurt a pretty lady..â€). Have NPCs react better in general to Comely PCs, and worse to ugly ones. Have them secretly admired by a powerful NPC who gives them gifts, aid, etc as a secret admirer or hunted by them for their disturbing appearance. Have passerby look on with awe or horror, winks, whistles, gasps, and screams. Give a straight bonus or penalty based on the score that affects social rolls, thereby making it an automatic bonus versus a complimentary one. USE social conflict and the skills associated with it in your game so the COM can actually be used as a modifier to social rolls (this would be important ).

 

On PRE – give your PCs a PRE attack when they start really creaming some poor NPC. If they subdue him it turns that combat into a potential social encounter with the recently “convinced†subject. Why should all PRE attacks be called upon by the PCs? You can suggest it in situations where you think it would have impact. Those friendly reminders might help increase the use of these kind of game elements.

 

Finally, a 10 COM or PRE costs you nothing. If you are not going to have any social situations in your game or nothing that COM would really impact, then let your players know. They can just use those points elsewhere. Same would be for PRE attacks. If you think the idea is bunk and have no use for it your game, just make sure your players know that. Only fair after all. I call this Truth In GMing. Just like the banks.

[Blue]

Re: Comeliness?

 

In my game, COM has very little practical use. That is, I've not gone out of my way to make it useful. It's almost purely "wow factor".

 

"How she look?"

"An 18 COM."

"Well, then I make sure I flex my pecks as I set her car gently back on the road."

[DrFurious]

Re: Comeliness?

 

I just have one question:

 

How would you describe a character trying to make a COM roll?

 

 

Str roll I can see, the hero exerts himself.

Dex roll I can see, the heroine attempts to move about nimbly.

Con roll, you steel yourself to resist.

 

Would a COM roll be standing there trying to be prettier? Hmmm..

[Trebuchet]

Re: Comeliness?

 

I just have one question:

 

How would you describe a character trying to make a COM roll?

 

 

Str roll I can see, the hero exerts himself.

Dex roll I can see, the heroine attempts to move about nimbly.

Con roll, you steel yourself to resist.

 

Would a COM roll be standing there trying to be prettier? Hmmm..

You've never seen a woman pose to make herself look more attractive; perhaps by leaning over to show a bit more cleavage? Works wonderfully on most males of the species. We are a very visually-oriented species taken as a whole.

[Solomon]

Re: Comeliness?

 

Welcome aboard, Jarekk!

 

Yes, COM is effectively useless, in strictly mechanical terms. It does have its uses in roleplaying though, and as TheEmerged pointed out, it's not that hard to come up with some mechanics to handle COM.

 

I am of the camp that hopes COM will be rewritten to work differently under HERO 6th edition : nudges Steve Long : but it's not really a major issues. Just like everything else in HERO system, part of your duty as a GM is making sure characters are built according to concept. I must add that, in my experience, COM has never been a problem area. Few players take low COM just to scrape off a couple of points, and in the end, most PC superheroes tend to be on the good-looking to gorgeous side, with the occasional ugly or monstrous one - just like the comics.

[Jarekk]

Re: Comeliness?

 

Wow--this is weird...

 

Usually, when I post on a message board, it takes days for someone to ask what on Earth I'm talking about. Here, I got a dozen or so helpful replies in a few hours.

 

Thanks...

 

 

Perhaps I should be more specific with my problem, though--

 

I'm trying to convert some Shadowrun concepts to Hero system. I like the Shadowrun world, but I hate their system... (Don't you ahte when that happens?) And, I keep getting stuck with the "Goblinized" races--Orks and Trolls.

 

I'm trying to work a starting package for them.

 

They're ugly. They're less articulate. They suffer from massive bigotry. All that says that presence should be decreased, right?

 

Well, they're big. They're scary. Common idea is they're violent and dangerous. That says presence goes up, doesn't it?

 

It's for two different situations, though--the difference between smooth-talking and impressive posturing. Well, IMHO.

 

I've used Thing and Hulk to describe this similarly.

 

So, how do I deperate "suave" presence from "scary" presence?

 

 

 

 

Oh, and, thanks for all the welcomes! I was trying to make a joke about being new--no matter where you go, you're new when you get there kinda... Lame, but, I've heard lame jokes are good ice breakers. ::shrug::

 

(%)

[Bloodstone]

Re: Comeliness?

 

You have to look at the whole picture, as what you are describing is not just "stat bonuses", but situational bonuses and penalties...

 

For example, Shadowrun Orks and Trolls would genarally have low COM and average to high PRE, but you could ALSO give them bonus PRE with Limms. Things like:

 

Impressivness: +10 PRE, Only For Fear Based Presence Attacks (-1)

 

Then you could also have things like:

 

Social Limitations: Ugly, Inarticulate and not well liked (-3 to all PRE based Social Skill rolls) (Frequently, Major, Not Limiting in some Cultures (ie Orkland or the like) 10pt Disadvantage.

 

 

These are just some fast and easy examples... not saying you should necessarily go with those exact numbers.

[Jarekk]

Re: Comeliness?

 

::nods::

 

Yeah, but for some reason buying limitations for stats feels weird to me.

 

Plus, it seemed to be a representation of a bigger issue...

 

Yeah, I think that's what I'm going to end up doing.

 

Well, thanks--everybody.

[Snarf]

Re: Comeliness?

 

Check out the power Characteristics and the example powers in the sidebars around it. Then check out the power limitations Limited Power and Conditional Power.

 

What you need is presence that works in fewer situations than it normally does. A Conditional Power limitation can do this. Presence normally works for both smooth talking friendliness and fearsomeness. Buy presence with the Conditional Power limitation "Only To Cause Fear" and the presence would only be useable in appropriate situations.

 

As an alternative, you could just buy normal presence, but roleplay all social skill interactions as based on intimidation and don't learn or use interaction skills which having nothing to do with scaring people.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Comeliness?

 

Wow--this is weird...

 

Usually, when I post on a message board, it takes days for someone to ask what on Earth I'm talking about. Here, I got a dozen or so helpful replies in a few hours.

 

Thanks...

 

 

Perhaps I should be more specific with my problem, though--

 

I'm trying to convert some Shadowrun concepts to Hero system. I like the Shadowrun world, but I hate their system... (Don't you ahte when that happens?) And, I keep getting stuck with the "Goblinized" races--Orks and Trolls.

 

I'm trying to work a starting package for them.

 

They're ugly. They're less articulate. They suffer from massive bigotry. All that says that presence should be decreased, right?

 

Well, they're big. They're scary. Common idea is they're violent and dangerous. That says presence goes up, doesn't it?

 

It's for two different situations, though--the difference between smooth-talking and impressive posturing. Well, IMHO.

 

I've used Thing and Hulk to describe this similarly.

 

So, how do I deperate "suave" presence from "scary" presence?

 

 

 

 

Oh, and, thanks for all the welcomes! I was trying to make a joke about being new--no matter where you go, you're new when you get there kinda... Lame, but, I've heard lame jokes are good ice breakers. ::shrug::

 

(%)

 

Welcome aboard!

 

As to your predicament, I would use a combination of characteristics and Disadvantages to solve it.

 

See that big, lurking Troll over there that just cracked the bar in half by slamming down his mug, that's Presence. Not much to look at, but he sure is impressive! Just look at him; you know he's a troll (Distinctive Features: Causes fear). And he obviously isn't great at speeches (either limit the so-called PRE-based skills, or apply a penalty connected to a physical limitation--inarticulate), and, as you know they can be dangerous (Reputation), especially that one (bad Reputation). And as far as savoir-faire, his idea of Seduction may involve blunt instruments, and his Conversation is limited to one syllable words.

 

Now that Elf, on the other hand...

 

Of course, YMMV,

JoeG

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Comeliness?

 

Ah! Now it becomes clear!

 

What you need to work with are the Disadvantages. An Orc or Troll would have some Distinctive Features (Concealable with Major Effort, Causes Major Reaction), and possibly a Social Limitation if they are some kind of 'second-class citizen'.

 

That said, they wouldn't necessarily need to buy their comeliness down ... In this case, I'd say that the comeliness applies to members of your own species ... if an Orc had a 20 Comeliness, he'd have whatever features Orcs consider attractive.

[Blue Jogger]

House Rules for Presence, Comeliness and other issues

 

This is some house-rules that I've been working on:

 

Comeliness Rolls can help or harm interaction rolls. Each 2 points the roll is made by adds 1 to Presence, each 2 points the roll is failed by, subtracts 1 to Presence. This is only when looking good affects the outcome.

 

Silver-Tongued - This is a bonus to Presence for social interaction skills that require talking. This could be due to a pleasant voice, exotic accent, or just knowing how to play to the crowd. It also defends from other silver-tongued individuals. Cost 1 point for each +2 PRE.

 

Sharp Dresser - This is a bonus to Comeliness and Presence for wearing the right clothes. Obviously, you must wear the right clothes to get this bonus. Anyone making a PER roll at -3 (or -0 if they are a Sharp Dresser) can recognize that it's just the clothes. Cost 1 point for +3 COM.

 

Aristocracy - This is a Perk as well as a bonus to Presence due to social standing. Note that some people do not respect the Aristocracy and it may reverse in that situation. This requires that you wear clothes befitting that rank. Cost 2 points for each +3 PRE.

[zornwil]

Re: House Rules for Presence, Comeliness and other issues

 

Personally I think I'm going with allowing COM as the basis for a few limited skills. Yes, it represents a much better deal than other such characteristics for skills but OTOH it has built-in limitations itself, as COM has no other effects (PRE for example allows PRE Defense).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Comeliness?

 

As CrosshairCollie pointed out .. COM and even PRE can be situation limiting factors.

 

You can give your Troll a 20 PRE and a 14 COM.

 

But keep in mind that in the game, like in real life, looks are completely subjective. The 14 COM on the Troll might allpy to Trolls only, and the rest of the world sees it as -14 COM.

 

20 PRE really is helpful for PRE Attacks and general situations. But if you Trolls are not glib of tongue that falls into the Skills realm of things (Conversation, Oratory, etc..) instead. In which case all you do is not give the Troll that skill, and a character without a Skill does not get to use the Stat, it's either an Everyman (8-) or Unlearned (6- has been suggested, or a massive penalty of 8 or more to the Stat Roll). That will effectively make your Troll inarticulate yet impressive.

 

And add onto it Situational Social Issues - discrimination, as a Disadvantage has been suggested in the forms of Social Limitations and Distinctive Features.

 

Unlike most systems that just lump things together Hero will spread different aspects out to create a system wide reference for a variety of situations. a High PRE, with a Social Limitation may mean that the PRE either is less effective or has the reverse effect - Instead of impressing the everyone by smashing the bar in half the Troll may just as well make everyone really angry and get burned at a stake instead - even if he is really impressive as he uses that barstool leg for a toothpick.

 

Game Mechanics are one thing - RolePlaying is the fun part. Play it out, don't let the numbers rule the game.

[Badger]

Re: Comeliness?

 

When you first start out you kind of feel like you left something off your character whether it be a social limitation or whatever. It can be a perfectionist's nightmare

[Jarekk]

Re: Comeliness?

 

In this case' date=' I'd say that the comeliness applies to members of your own species[/quote']

 

::blinks::

 

I--w... G?

 

That had not occurred to me. I feel dumb!

 

Okay, so--how's this?

 

 

Ork- +5 PRE (fear based only, -1) -5 PRE (socal based only, -1) wash.

 

Troll- +10 PRE (fear based only, -1) -10 PRE (social based only, -1) wash.

 

Along with the social, reputation, and other lims that apply to the public's feelings towards the race?

 

(I'd never realized how tough package deals are to make. Yeesh...)

 

Wow--thanks, guys, for all the help. Why didn't I sign on sooner?