is this legal?

[Insaniac99]

ok, this construct seems horribly abusive, and I was sure there was some kind of rule that would forbid it but I can't find it. in a 12 dc setting someone came up with this build:

 

45 strength,

Martial Strike,

+1 DC,

+10d6 hand-to-hand attack

=22 DCs

[Rage]

Re: is this legal?

 

so?

[Snarf]

Re: is this legal?

 

If you're putting limits on damage classes, you should also put limits on the amount of strength someone can buy. Or you could include the damage added by strength when comparing an attack to the campaign limit.

[Insaniac99]

Re: is this legal?

 

soooo, in a 12 dc setting, he came up with a power that is almost double that. unfortunately the gm is strongly considering a rule that says you get to roll all the dice, then drop the lowest untill you get to the DC limit. so instead of rolling 12d6 and getting a average of 42 stun againt 30 DEF opponents (he would do 12 average stun after DEF), he would roll 22d6 and then drop the lowest making it quite likely that he would get a roll of 72 stun (average of 42 stun after DEF) thereby one-shotting 90% of villians.

 

Edit, this was in response to rage, before I saw Snarf's post. think I'll talk to the GM about it. as it doesn't seem right....

[Col. Orange]

Re: is this legal?

 

My GM would crucify me if I tried this.

12 DC means 12 DC, not 9 DC of STR, 2 DC of M.Arts, 1 DC of Damage Class Power and 10 DC of HA.

[Snarf]

Re: is this legal?

 

The added STR damage is the main advantage of hand attacks and hand killing attacks over ranged attacks, so I think the attack should be allowed to go over 12 DC. But there should be some sort of secondary limit (max of 40 STR, max of 18 DC w/ all added damage, etc.) that keeps these attacks from controlling the game.

 

At the very least, if this guy gets to make a power that bends the limit, then the limit should be loosened for everyone else too.

[Col. Orange]

Re: is this legal?

 

The added STR damage is the main advantage of hand attacks and hand killing attacks over ranged attacks, so I think the attack should be allowed to go over 12 DC. But there should be some sort of secondary limit (max of 40 STR, max of 18 DC w/ all added damage, etc.) that keeps these attacks from controlling the game.

 

At the very least, if this guy gets to make a power that bends the limit, then the limit should be loosened for everyone else too.

 

I see your point, but I don't think Hand-to-Hand specialists need an advantage to make them as effective as Blasters.

 

Bricks get lots of HERO's most rewarding Stat, STR - the advantages of which have been sung since the dawn of time. Well, the dawn of the game.

 

MARTists get DIRT CHEAP attack and defense powers in the form of Maneuvers.

 

Speedsters get shed loads Dex, Speed and Movement that hit and run tactics and velocity damage become very attractive.

 

If I was looking to be sympathetic to any build it'd be Mentalists - I don't care what anyone says, they have it rough. Everyone hates them and everyone can hurt them.

[Metaphysician]

Re: is this legal?

 

Legal?? Yes.

 

With the DC limit?? No.

[JJR]

Re: is this legal?

 

I do not understand the question. If there is a 12 dc limit in your game then the characeter is not legal. Anything over the 12 dc would be considered illegal. It does not matter how you bought it. You can buy a 100 strength but it would still be illegal based on what the gm has set for his campaign limits.

[Zanthis]

Re: is this legal?

 

I'd be more worried if this player learns Sweep and MPA rules and opens up with 2-4 of your 12 DC attacks on a villian in 1 phase. An MPA or Sweep with four 12 DC attacks will deal 12 damage against a DEF 30 villian 4 times, equaling 48 total damage, 6 higher than you are currently worried about.

 

-Zanthis

[JJR]

Re: is this legal?

 

I'd be more worried if this player learns Sweep and MPA rules and opens up with 2-4 of your 12 DC attacks on a villian in 1 phase. An MPA or Sweep with four 12 DC attacks will deal 12 damage against a DEF 30 villian 4 times' date=' equaling 48 total damage, 6 higher than you are currently worried about.[/quote']

A sweep is not that large of a deal. Most characters cannot easily take a -6 ocv to use a sweep that many times. Brick-types are not usually know for their high ocv's.

[lemming]

Re: is this legal?

 

I've always disliked it when players come up with something technically legal, but against the spirit of the game.

Of course if this is OK in the game, it should be fine for Blasters to purchase for example:

12d6 EB - 0 End (90 points)

+10d6 - 2x End (-1/2) for 33 points. Or other combinations.

 

What this will lead to is a probable escalation of power in the game as people find more loopholes.

 

I'll have to work on my math for calculating odds for 22d6 toss the lowest 10, but if we assume even distribution with 24d6, toss the lower 12, you would get 6*4 + 5*4 + 4*4 for 60 Stun & 16 body. I think we can assume that Body will almost always be > 12. Knockback damage may be a consideration then.

[BNakagawa]

Re: is this legal?

 

A sweep is not that large of a deal. Most characters cannot easily take a -6 ocv to use a sweep that many times. Brick-types are not usually know for their high ocv's.

 

it's called a buddy with an area effect 1 hex entangle.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: is this legal?

 

If 12 DC is a limit, then it is illegal, and the GM should slap the player for even attempting it. If 12 DC is a guideline, then it is abusive, and the GM should make him trim at least 6 dice or suffer a slap.

[tesuji]

Re: is this legal?

 

it's called a buddy with an area effect 1 hex entangle.

 

Remember to add +1/4 for the entanlge not protecting the target... like say webbing, so that the victim takes full damage.

 

Although this works best when you have the soft entangle and a blaster with the EB with the free "stun only" so the shots do not even break down the entangle. Rapid fire vs 0 DCV is very nasty.

[Old Man]

Re: is this legal?

 

It's illegal. 12 DC is 12 DC. Of course Haymakers would still be legal but there are penalties built into Haymakers and everybody can do them.

 

The GM could also send a few near duplicates of that character after the group. I'm sure they built their defenses along the lines of expecting 12 DC damage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: is this legal?

 

The GM could also send a few near duplicates of that character after the group. I'm sure they built their defenses along the lines of expecting 12 DC damage.

 

EASY ANSWER: Have the GM throw the issue open to the group. "Hey guys, should this be allowed or not. Note that I will be designing villains on the same basis we decide applied to the heroes."

[Zanthis]

Re: is this legal?

 

A sweep is not that large of a deal. Most characters cannot easily take a -6 ocv to use a sweep that many times. Brick-types are not usually know for their high ocv's.

He sounded more like a MA type to me, and he should easily be able to soak up a -6. If he's got two-weapon fighting style, it's already only -4. That means just 4 PSL to counter, so between 6 and 8 points there (9 to 12 if he doesn't have two-weapon).

 

A DC limit is in no way going to prevent abuse. It only prevents people with limited creativity from easily causing problems. The system we've always used provides ranges to powers, OCV, DCV, etc. This let us know that if a 15 OCV is at the top of the range, that most enemies we will face will be fairly easily struck by this OCV and that unless are character is supposed to be insanely accurate (on the level of Bullseye say) we shouldn't be getting an OCV that high. This encouraged us to limit characters ourselves, based not on numbers but on our vision of the character.

 

-Zanthis

[JJR]

Re: is this legal?

 

He sounded more like a MA type to me' date=' and he should easily be able to soak up a -6. If he's got two-weapon fighting style, it's already only -4. That means just 4 PSL to counter, so between 6 and 8 points there (9 to 12 if he doesn't have two-weapon).[/quote']

I believe the faq states that penalty skill levels cannot be used for sweep and rapid fire penaties. But I do understand your point but I did not get the impression the character in question would have a high ocv. Most starting characters have between 8 and 12, and the villains the same dcv possibilities. That makes a -6 penalty fairly severe unless special circumstances are involved.

[Vanguard00]

Re: is this legal?

 

ok, this construct seems horribly abusive, and I was sure there was some kind of rule that would forbid it but I can't find it. in a 12 dc setting someone came up with this build:

 

45 strength,

Martial Strike,

+1 DC,

+10d6 hand-to-hand attack

=22 DCs

 

 

You already stated the rule forbidding it. "12 DC setting". That's all the justification you need not to allow it. Take off the extra DCs HtH attack and let the rest stand.

[Zanthis]

Re: is this legal?

 

Just looked it up, no can do with PSL vs Sweep. You can however use 2 point CSLs, so not really that difficult to do. A lot of options exist on negating the OCV penalty.

 

My main point is, only 12 DC per attack is nice, but when you can make 4+ attacks in a phase, it really is going against the spirit of the DC ceiling rule.

 

-Zanthis

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: is this legal?

 

ok, this construct seems horribly abusive, and I was sure there was some kind of rule that would forbid it but I can't find it. in a 12 dc setting someone came up with this build:

 

45 strength,

Martial Strike,

+1 DC,

+10d6 hand-to-hand attack

=22 DCs

 

Is it book legal? Yes. However, you gave the answer already in your question: "in a 12 dc setting..."

 

So, no. 22 DC is not legal in a 12 DC setting.

[BNakagawa]

Re: is this legal?

 

I think you'd better have your GM clarify what a 12DC cap means to him.

 

Otherwise, you'd be better off with a 60 str character with a 4d6 HKA, 12" of stretching and 60 active points of Find weakness...

 

...what? It's all 60 ap or less. It's legal isn't it?

[Vondy]

Re: is this legal?

 

If you're putting limits on damage classes' date=' you should also put limits on the amount of strength someone can buy. Or you could include the damage added by strength when comparing an attack to the campaign limit.[/quote']

5 STR is 1DC, so strength is already included.

[Dust Raven]

Re: is this legal?

 

Sounds like it's been coverd, but it probably can't be stressed enough:

 

12 DC is 12 DC. 22 is quite a bit more.

 

On the note of using maneuvers like Sweep/Rapid Fire: I love these maneuvers, but they can be abusive. As a guideline, I count any points spent on levels with these maneuvers (including Rapid Attack) as part of the active cost of the attack powers they apply to. It's not much different than moderating AF attacks.