Who was the LAMEST?

[Speedball]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

4 pages of posts about the lamest comic in history and nobody's thought to mention the mid-80's Marvel book "Team America?"

 

Shame on you all!

 

What better to read about than a bunch of guys who ride motorcross, travel around the country, and fight crime? Well, a bunch of guys who do all that *and* they have a mystery protector by the name of the "Black Rider!"

 

ugh.

 

OK, yeah--I obviously read it, so I guess ennabled the lameness to occur. I'm Sorry!

[assault]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

"Team America?"

 

Hmm. I must stop reading this thread. It is bringing back far too many hideous memories...

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

My own avatar, the 60s android Captain Marvel, is deeply lame, and he had hs own comic for a while.

[Kristopher]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

It is' date=' because he's presented as a superhero in the context of a fictional universe populated by superheroes with whom he interacts.[/quote']

 

I have to disagree with you about that (Punisher being presented as a superhero), and I think I did mention that the corssovers with supers were ill-conceived.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

I heard someone once describe the Marvel U as really being several different universes that occasionally crossover.

 

The Super Hero U ( Avengers, Fantastic Four )

 

The Mutant U ( X-heroes and villains )

 

The Street Level U ( Daredevil, Punisher )

 

With Spider-man as the biggest constant between them.

 

Personally, I'd add a Supernatural U to that list.

[jackalope]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

Punisher was never a villain - he was a marine whose family got killed, and decided to use his soldier skills to wage war on crime. In his first appearance, the villain Jackal convinces him to go after Spider-Man - who was wanted for murder at the time. Even Spider-Man recognizes that Castle is not a villain, but a good man driven past the breaking point.

 

I also don't think it's fair to call Punisher an Executioner rip-off, the two characters have almost nothing in common. Frank, for example, has no superpowers, while Mack is an incarnation of Shiva (or something) with a lot of quasi-supernatural abilities.

 

---

 

The heroic Green Goblin was Phil Urich, nephew of Daily Bugle reporter Ben Urich. It was a really good series, while it lasted. Phil retired because he realized he didn't have the nerve it takes to fight supervillains.

[Magmarock]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

After more than a decade, I still have no freaking clue what Cable's powers actually are. Near as I can tell, he has the mutant power to grimace and look bad-ass.

 

Not counting the monster thighs (which were the result of bad artwork, not superpowers), Cable had mental powers, Telepathy for sure, and TK, although it was severely weakened by the legacy virus which had destroyed parts of his body. His mental powers were the only thing that keeps the virus at bay IIRC.

 

Also, he is cybernetic. Body parts were replaced because too much damage was done by the virus before he learned how to control it.

 

The rest is all training- like how to use the guns and other weaponry. Cable has a high level of leadership. He communicates with his Ship's computer by Telepathy. The time travel was by focus, not his own powers, more like a plot device (used frequently, in the comics).

 

Not sure why he was named "Cable". Guess that's a question for Liefield. I've always liked him because he was Scott's boy.

 

Mags

[freakboy6117]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

The Flash

 

 

well the one in what if Stan Lee created The flash mmm stupid origin story involving time travel and hummingbird DNA and a white costume with rainbow streamers liek a littel kids bike.cringe

[Vondy]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

Rom didn't suck. I didn't really get into it. But it didn't suck.

 

Power pack was pretty cool. I liked it. And I usually like grittier, darker stuff.

 

Wolverine is only lame today because of market saturation. People are sick of him. He had a some cool storylines back in the day and has potential for more. The problem is, he's pathetically overused and in a hashed out sort of way. That's what happens when you have potential to be cool if handled properly in one book, but show up in a gazillion of them.

 

Dazzler sucked.

 

The original Punisher Mini-Series rocked, but by and large his mainstream title hasn't been that good. Some of the War Journal stories are well written. He doesn't really belong in the mainstream marvel universe.

 

What is Cable's deal? That dude is lame.

 

X-Man - another "the summers family is royally screwed and has major disfunction title." Some of the writing was passable, but come on - we're sick of the headcase summers family and their need for counseling already!

 

Wonder Man. He's not interesting and he's more concerned about how he looks than the job at hand. And he took on villians like the feared "splice." Yeah...

 

Sleepwalker. Does anyone here even remember this lame-o existed at all. He took on a guy in a huge 8-ball helmet in his second issue...

 

Darkhawk. He looked kind of cool, but his powers were LAME and he got his backside handed to him so regularly that they sent Spidey to save him. Yeah, you've got your own comic, but another character has to come save you. You'd think the writer might actually have the headliner be able to win on his own...

 

Captain Planet - the underlying theme: humanity sucks and must be saved from itself by the mega-mack-daddy-of-eco-goodness. Yeah, people want to be preached to...

 

Kyle Rainer - yes, I'll catch flack for this. If you were going to select a protector of the earth sector and bestow galactic power on him you'd pick a young punk moonlighting freelance artist?! And in his version the ring has no weaknesses - how freaking dull. Then again, I confess to being a fan of Guy Gardner....

 

Tattoo man! His tattoos come to life! Joy to the world! Ugh...

 

Speedball! Bouncing around uncontrollably is a superpower? And what's with the multi-colored balls? And annoying teenagers have real appeal...

 

Chunk. I can suck things into myself. Goody.

 

HANSI:THE GIRL WHO LOVED THE SWASTIKA - gestapo candystriper. It has a moral (she's a christian who becomes a nazi who becomes a christian again), but dear God - maybe a better role-model would be a character who didn't become a nazi and stuck to their values in the first place. And no - I'm not joking - it was a real title.

 

Prez: First Teen President - yeah, that's just what we need - a hip teenaged president who fights vampires... vampires?

 

Moon Knight - the character had potential. The writer didn't.

 

US1: USArcher and his cybernetic bigrig US1 take on an assortment of speedracereseque villians. Oh, I want some.

 

3-D Man: yes, his suit is green and red. Yes, he had 3-D glasses. What was the point again?

 

Bee Man: where does one begin...

 

The Human Fly: it wasn't good to be in marvel in the 70's...

 

SKATEMAN - a hard boiled vigilante who fights crime on rollerskates. ooooooooooooh.....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

Punisher was never a villain - he was a marine whose family got killed' date=' and decided to use his soldier skills to wage war on crime.[/quote']

 

I would classify a person who could not differentiate jaywalkers and litterbugs from murderers and rapists, and thus took the law ibnto his own hands to execute them all, a villain. YMMV.

 

Punisher fans seem to forget this component of Frank's personality in his earliest apearances.

[Kristopher]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

If we judge comic-book characters by the worst moments the writers inflict upon them, there are no good characters in comic-books. Every mainstream character has gone through bad stories, bad artists, writers who didn't do their homework or understand the characters, etc, etc, etc,

 

I mean, look at what's been done to the Avengers lately, even before the whole "disassembled" fiasco began.

 

Are you going to judge Cap by some of the compeltely-out-of-character things he's said lately? Or better yet, let's judge Cap as a character based solely on the worst of the WWII issues, or the little stint of "commie-bustin-Cap" issues...

[jackalope]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

I would classify a person who could not differentiate jaywalkers and litterbugs from murderers and rapists, and thus took the law ibnto his own hands to execute them all, a villain. YMMV.

 

Punisher fans seem to forget this component of Frank's personality in his earliest apearances.

 

Except those weren't his earliest appearances, that was from much later appearances where the character was being handled by a BAD WRITER. Specifically, you're referring to Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man #82, wherein the Punisher opens fire on someone for littering (and he fired warning shots, not kill shots). That story was written by Bill Mantlo (Who? Yeah, that's right, nobody important), it was the Punishers nineteenth appearance, and it can only be described as "totally out of character". Punisher had appeared in Daredevil shortly before that, and DD had called Punishers bluff when Castle had him in his gunsights, saying "I know you, you've never killed an innocent man, you won't kill me." Why did he say that? Because the Punisher only kills violent, repeat offenders.

 

I think Mantlo didn't like how popular Castle was becoming, and wanted to push him from anti-hero to outright villain. I also think, ultimately, it's highly unfair to trash Punisher on account of four bad pages written by an entirely forgetable writer who couldn't be bothered to do his homework and find out who he was writing about.

[Kristopher]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

Good specific example of the kind of thing I was talking about in my last post.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

Except those weren't his earliest appearances' date=' that was from much later appearances where the character was being handled by a BAD WRITER. Specifically, you're referring to [b']Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man #82[/b], wherein the Punisher opens fire on someone for littering (and he fired warning shots, not kill shots). That story was written by Bill Mantlo (Who? Yeah, that's right, nobody important), it was the Punishers nineteenth appearance, and it can only be described as "totally out of character". Punisher had appeared in Daredevil shortly before that, and DD had called Punishers bluff when Castle had him in his gunsights, saying "I know you, you've never killed an innocent man, you won't kill me." Why did he say that? Because the Punisher only kills violent, repeat offenders.

 

And yet I seem to recall him threatening to kill DD if he got in the way one time too many in the Marvel Knights line. [i also recall Fred Hembeck Destroys the MU, which excuses the lack of Punisher pages with "You were out shooting jaywalkers and litterbugs - how was I to know you'd be a big name when this finally got published?"]

 

I also recall a Marvel Knights issue (the two stories per book title) where we got to view the entire story looking out of a character's mouth, as he sat in the dentist's chair and was tortured for information by, once again, Mr. Castle.

 

Whether he's a villain depends on how much "the ends justify the means" you are prepared to accept from a hero, or even a non-villain. Magneto has very noble ideals, but is prepared to employ some pretty brutal tactics to achieving same. Is he a villain, an anti-hero or a hero?

 

Actually, the most amusement I get from the Punisher is recalling an individual telling his buddy in a comic shop "I only like realistic super heros - like the Punisher". Yeah...a guy who's been shot hundreds of times, broken most major bones in his body, rarely gets proper medical treatment yet remains in the peak of health. Action movie characters are so much more realistic...

 

I would agree that, though he's not a character I particularly like, the Punisher suffers the same issues as Wolverine - when written well, he can be a very interesting character, primarily because he is more or less unique. But fanboys who can't see past the big guns and shoot 'em up scenarios, and writers who cater to them, result in some very poorly written appearances that cheapen the character overall.

[Speedball]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

So while some folks continue the punisher debate, I thought I'd re-hijak the thread back to it's purpose. I was scratching my head, trying to come up with a hero/group with his/her/their own book than Team America....and the only thing I could come up with that even came close was...

 

The Official Handbook to the Marvel Universe.

 

I admit to buying it when I was a teen (but obviously, a guy who'll buy Team America will buy anything), but when I think about the OHMU now, I think it was a silly idea that was created to accomplish one or more less-than-laudible goals:

1) keep characters in print, removing them from copyright/trademark free use.

2) boost sales on weak titles

3) take advantage of the 'my favorite hero can beat your favorite hero' conversations that have been going on since Captain Marvel-ites first tangled with Superman fans.

 

Of course, the same could be said of the DC series that came out, the name of which I've forgotten. (bad fanboy, bad!)

[Whitewings]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

You're thinking of "Who's Who in the DC Universe."

[jackalope]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

And yet I seem to recall him threatening to kill DD if he got in the way one time too many in the Marvel Knights line.

 

If you're referring to their recent confrontation in MK: Daredevil, then I have to point out that DD recently declared himself The Kingpin of New York. Frank's reaction to DD declaring himself boss of all crime in New York was, I think, quite appropriate.

 

[i also recall Fred Hembeck Destroys the MU, which excuses the lack of Punisher pages with "You were out shooting jaywalkers and litterbugs - how was I to know you'd be a big name when this finally got published?"]

 

I hope you don't intend for me to take that seriously, because, you know, I'm not.

 

I also recall a Marvel Knights issue (the two stories per book title) where we got to view the entire story looking out of a character's mouth, as he sat in the dentist's chair and was tortured for information by, once again, Mr. Castle.

 

Wouldn't know, I'm not a Garth Ennis fan and don't make an effort to read his stuff. He openly hates the superhero genre, so I wouldn't expect his version of Frank to be very superheroic at all. Ennis seems to like really hard-boiled noir, so I imagine his Punisher is pretty vicious and nasty.

 

Whether he's a villain depends on how much "the ends justify the means" you are prepared to accept from a hero, or even a non-villain. Magneto has very noble ideals, but is prepared to employ some pretty brutal tactics to achieving same. Is he a villain, an anti-hero or a hero?

 

Frank doesn't pretend he is noble or a hero. Frank is a soldier and he's fighting a war. He doesn't care about the morality of his actions, he cares about the war. It's the only reason he has to live. That's why Frank is an anti-hero: he seeks to do something good (protect the innocent from the wicked who would prey on them), but he does it for entirely wrong reasons, and so he uses what most would consider the wrong methods.

 

Magneto seeks to enslave or destroy all of humanity, and acts entirely out of selfish and petty motives. That he can espouse noble ideals in defense of absolute villainy only makes him that much more of a villain. I don't see how anyone could consider Magento an anti-hero or hero.

 

I would agree that, though he's not a character I particularly like, the Punisher suffers the same issues as Wolverine - when written well, he can be a very interesting character, primarily because he is more or less unique. But fanboys who can't see past the big guns and shoot 'em up scenarios, and writers who cater to them, result in some very poorly written appearances that cheapen the character overall.

 

Yeah, fanboys can be annoying.

 

And for the record, I don't care for Punisher much myself. I only know so much about him because he appears in both Spider-Man and Daredevil, and those are my two favorite characters.

[Whitewings]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

Magneto seeks to enslave or destroy all of humanity' date=' and acts entirely out of selfish and petty motives. That he can espouse noble ideals in defense of absolute villainy only makes him that much more of a villain. I don't see how anyone could consider Magento an anti-hero or hero.[/quote']Magneto acts as he acts because he believes it impossible for mutants and regular human to coexist peacefully, and at last report humanity as a whole seemed bent on proving him right, to the exent of nuking the entire island nation of Genosha into a radioactive wasteland rather than allow the establishment of a sanctuary for mutants who just want to live their own lives rather than have their lives' courses dictated to them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

If you're referring to their recent confrontation in MK: Daredevil' date=' then I have to point out that DD recently declared himself [i']The Kingpin of New York[/i]. Frank's reaction to DD declaring himself boss of all crime in New York was, I think, quite appropriate.

 

Probably. My reference is to the Marvel Knights team book (I think; I know it was a few years back, before DD hopped the fence; I don't follow DD's book).

 

Frank doesn't pretend he is noble or a hero. Frank is a soldier and he's fighting a war. He doesn't care about the morality of his actions' date=' he cares about the war. It's the only reason he has to live. That's why Frank is an anti-hero: he seeks to do something good (protect the innocent from the wicked who would prey on them), but he does it for entirely wrong reasons, and so he uses what most would consider the wrong methods.[/quote']

 

The first part of your sentence sums up why Frank is not a hero. He acts from baser motives.

 

ASIDE: With a bit of a different writing slant, Batman could have the same basic outlook - like Frank, he's psychologically scarred from loss of loved ones to crime, and has declared a personal "war on crime" to compensate. But Bats has had years of sanitization, most notably with respect to his attitude on killing, so he's gone down a different road.

 

I question whether Frank seeks to protect the innocent. His priority, as I understand it, is to punish the guilty (though, again, weighting between the two will undoubtedly vary between writers). Daredevil, OTOH (at least a few years ago) was more focused on protecting the victims than taking down the guilty, resulting in conflict between the characters.

 

Magneto seeks to enslave or destroy all of humanity' date=' and acts entirely out of selfish and petty motives. That he can espouse noble ideals in defense of absolute villainy only makes him that much more of a villain. I don't see how anyone could consider Magento an anti-hero or hero.[/quote']

 

Another viewpoint (and again, a lot depends on the writer). Magneto was psychologically scarred (lot of that going around, actually) in early childhood as he watched his family destroyed in concentration camps, for the simple crime of being different (jewish). In early adulthod, he learned he was a mutant, and thus diferent in another way. He perceives the anti-mutant sentiments of the baseline human populace as the precursor to a holocaust for mutants. He fights to establish a safe haven for mutants, and avoid such a holocaust (a motivation I would classify as potentially heroic), but has accepted that the end justifies the means, and is prepared to subject non-mutants to the same persecution he strives to protect mutants from (brutal means to achieve a noble cause).

 

To me, Magneto's basic approach doesn't seem all that different from "protect the innocent from criminals by murdering the criminals before they can do any (more) harm". It's just on a much grander scale.

 

On the Punisher front, my exposure is pretty much guest starring roles as well - I read the miniseries (many years ago), which was well pit together as I recall. After that, it quickly slid into "watch how brutaly Frank kills the bad guys. ooo - cool guns!" which held no appeal for me.

[jackalope]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

The first part of your sentence sums up why Frank is not a hero. He acts from baser motives.

 

Well, like I already said, Punisher is an anti-hero, not a hero. He's tragic.

 

Another viewpoint (and again, a lot depends on the writer). Magneto was psychologically scarred (lot of that going around, actually) in early childhood as he watched his family destroyed in concentration camps, for the simple crime of being different (jewish). In early adulthod, he learned he was a mutant, and thus diferent in another way. He perceives the anti-mutant sentiments of the baseline human populace as the precursor to a holocaust for mutants. He fights to establish a safe haven for mutants, and avoid such a holocaust (a motivation I would classify as potentially heroic), but has accepted that the end justifies the means, and is prepared to subject non-mutants to the same persecution he strives to protect mutants from (brutal means to achieve a noble cause).

 

Eh, I dunno. If I lived in the MU, and Magento established a nation state, I'd want to nuke it too. I mean, Magento has done that several times, and every single time, he's used it as a base of operations to launch a plot to wipe out all of humanity. I don't really get how anyone can consider a mass-murdering genocidal maniac "heroic" in the slightest. Sure, he had a traumatic childhood (something I feel was tacked on to make him seem more sympathetic), but he learned the wrong lesson.

 

I know he talks a good game, about how he's doing all this to "protect mutants from their enemies", but the truth is that he's a liar, he's manipulative and decietful and he'll say anything to cloud the issues. I don't think he honestly gives a rat's ass about the fate of mutants in general, it's all just talk masking his real desire: power, power, and more power.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

You see the problem with Magneto is he's an idiot.

 

He sets up asteroid M and what’s his first action he steals nuclear weapons thus guaranteeing the now totally freaked out earth bound politicians will try and take that asteroid out. The smart thing to do would be to steal a majority of the planets major gold reserves not a hard thing to do if your the master of magnetism and then inform the governments that while it its is safe in his possession and can be freely used fro any and all transactions whilst held in the first orbital bank of mutopia any nation acting against asteroid m will have there gold fired into the sun.

 

Because some one will always face down a lunatic with a gun if they think they have nothing to lose but no one wants to piss off there bank manager.

[ParitySoul]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

It's funny a lot of the comics I loved as a kid are getting plugged here.

 

Power Pack - Actually before they got into the whole Inferno crap and started meeting Whoopie Goldburg looking aliens it was a very cool sci-fi super hero book. I love the Cloak and Dagger crossovers. And Franklin pre-godhood was a nice addition to the team.

 

Dark Hawk - Had it's VERY dry momments and the eventual crossover into New Warriors and Avengers was stupid it was a cool title. Again a nice book that came out around the same time as Sleepwalker. I read them both religiously.

 

Rom - Ah, what a cool book. The recent revision of it was a dog tough.

 

Personaly: Ravage 2099 was like having Stan Lee rub a hot poker in my eyes. Why Stan, why?

 

Hell, Punisher 2099 and Doom 2099 were stinkers. Spiderman and Xmen 2099 were pretty good though.

[jsquared]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

Dazzler leaps to mind as the lamest. Hey, let's cash in on this disco and rollerskate craze! (in 1981?) The cleavage, however, was ahead of its time. If she'd only held on until MTV was in full swing, she could have become a VJ.

 

Rom was cool

[st barbara]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

I never read "Dazzler". I do however like the idea of her powers (able to transform one type of energy (sound) into another type of energy (light) ). If hte character was to be well writen it could be interesting. It sounds as though they have never done that however !

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Who was the LAMEST?

 

Okay, does anyone but me remember the no-name superhero in the plain white costume from Marvel's:

 

"Generic Comic Book; Type: Super-Hero" from a number of years back?