commonality of unusual defenses

[Guest bblackmoor]

One problem with the genre as expressed in the design of most superheroes is the lack of proper resistance to mind control.

 

This reminds me of something I have been giving a lot of thought about lately. Namely, the rarity (or lack thereof) of unusual defenses. In my current game group, at least half of us have been playing Champions since the 1980s. As such, we have developed certain routines when we GM that, on the face of them, make perfect sense.

 

For example, the fellow who mainly runs Viper gives all of the Viper agents enhanced senses which can see through their own (quite effective) Darkness grenades. For myself, I tend to give just about any supernatural villian both Power Defense and Mental Defense. Similarly, I think we have all developed the habit of giving any technological villain Power Defense and Flash Defense, and often Mental Defense as well. To a lesser extent, we have also developed the habit of doing this with our PCs, as well. For example, if I have a character whose costume includes any kind of face shield or sunglasses, they have Flash Defense and probably a few Enhanced Senses.

 

We do this for the obvious reasons: the defenses are cheap, they are disproportionately effective, and there is (at the very least) a plausible reason for the character to have them. But what I have noticed is that this has made combat a bit less interesting. None of the more experienced players in our group bothers writing up a Flash-based character anymore, and I don't think there's more than one active mentalist PC in our entire gaming group, including all of the various supergroups we play. Ditto for Alteration powers.

 

I can't fault anyone, in character or out of character, for buying these unusual defenses, but I have to wonder... would the game be more fun if we didn't? Would our games be more interesting if we voluntarily chose not to buy characters unusual defenses, even when it makes perfect sense to do so? And if so... should we?

 

Has anyone else noticed a similar phenomenon in their own games?

[Chuckg]

Re: rarity of unusual defenses

 

Well... despite the fact that that we are all 800+ point JLA-level heroes, less than half of our members have any real Mental Defense. Only two of us have even as much as 10 points of Power Defense, either... and only /one/ of us has any great amount of either. Life Supports are more common.

 

However, the /only/ member of ours to combine Power Defense, Mental Defense, /and/ Total Life Support is our Superman-style brick -- whose specific concept is that he's invulnerable to damn near anything.

 

The other Mental Defense is on our mentalist. (My own character, Starguard, has Invisibility to Mental Sense Group -- she's impossible to mind-read -- but is wide-open on everything else except straightforward Force Field and Life Support. And this despite a concept that would gladly support any combo of exotic defenses imaginable.)

 

This is for a JLA-level team, mind you.

 

The other person with Power Defense / Life Support combo is Microman II, who's an android with hardened circuits.

[Blue]

Re: rarity of unusual defenses

 

I like a justification for odd defenses on a character. A psychic being preturnaturally resistant to mental defense is ok. Somehow being resistant to drains is a little less likely, but if they can properly justify it.

 

More likely, the heroes wind up buying the defenses with XP after a bad encounter. I've got a few players saying they want Power Defense after running into a group with NND attacks. I have no problem with that; After all, you always try to shore up your weaknesses once you find them.

[JmOz]

Re: rarity of unusual defenses

 

This reminds me of something I have been giving a lot of thought about lately. Namely, the rarity (or lack thereof) of unusual defenses. In my current game group, at least half of us have been playing Champions since the 1980s. As such, we have developed certain routines when we GM that, on the face of them, make perfect sense.

 

For example, the fellow who mainly runs Viper gives all of the Viper agents enhanced senses which can see through their own (quite effective) Darkness grenades. For myself, I tend to give just about any supernatural villian both Power Defense and Mental Defense. Similarly, I think we have all developed the habit of giving any technological villain Power Defense and Flash Defense, and often Mental Defense as well. To a lesser extent, we have also developed the habit of doing this with our PCs, as well. For example, if I have a character whose costume includes any kind of face shield or sunglasses, they have Flash Defense and probably a few Enhanced Senses.

 

We do this for the obvious reasons: the defenses are cheap, they are disproportionately effective, and there is (at the very least) a plausible reason for the character to have them. But what I have noticed is that this has made combat a bit less interesting. None of the more experienced players in our group bothers writing up a Flash-based character anymore, and I don't think there's more than one active mentalist PC in our entire gaming group, including all of the various supergroups we play. Ditto for Alteration powers.

 

I can't fault anyone, in character or out of character, for buying these unusual defenses, but I have to wonder... would the game be more fun if we didn't? Would our games be more interesting if we voluntarily chose not to buy characters unusual defenses, even when it makes perfect sense to do so? And if so... should we?

 

Has anyone else noticed a similar phenomenon in their own games?

 

Well one of my house rules is everyone has some mental defence (Ego/5, NCM=8, HCM=12)

 

PowDefence is about 50%, however I try to enforce a requires appropriate lim on this (Only Magic, etc...)

 

Flash Defence: About 50% to sight, one guy has hearing I think, no one else...

 

My current character in a different campeign has:

 

MD: 2 (Same house rule)

PowD: 0

Flash: Sight: 5

Flash: Hearing 5

 

PD/ED: 25/25

rPD/rED: 15/15

rPD/rED Hardened 5/5

[Hermit]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

I have something of the reverse effect in my games. Left to their own devices, my players rarely get certain defenses unless the memory of a whomping via such is fresh in their minds. Flash Defense (sight) is the most common of such for them, easy to put in concept (hip shades etc) as it is also the most common attack they have to deal with.

 

Mental Defense I tend to steer towards mystics and mentalist concepts because it makes more sense for them, frankly, with the break out rules, it rarely causes those without it too much trouble.

 

Now, as for my villains, I really don't use it much. If my players have a fondness for unusual attacks, it is for NNDs. Again, PC mentalists can be frustrated as it is by break out rolls, so I don't add on Mental Defense to add to their troubles. I do sometimes have very lower powerdefense for certain NPCs (like 5-8 points) to keep them from being push overs when drained, without making the hero feel in effective. Other than that, it depends. If the PCs are fighting VIPER agents who know they are likely to show up, and one of the PCs has flash attacks and is known to use them, then the VIPER agents might have polarized visors. Otherwise, they're unprepared and toast for such.

 

So far, it hasn't caused a problem really.

[Klytus]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

I try to make sure my villians are challenging, but not overpowering. It is very rare that anyone but the most powerful master villians or juggernauts will have all of the unusual defenses. Some folks may not have a vulnerability, but unless there is some kind of hole in their defenses, the battles are just too tough. When I design PCs or NPCs, I try to figure out what makes sense for that character concept, not "I know what they will be up against, so let me make sure they can defend against it..."

[OddHat]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

I try to keep all characters, hero and villain, vulnerable to at least some special attacks. I never give thugs or most agents enhanced senses or defenses; these are the guys that Superheroes are meant to be mowing down by the truck load, the ones that remind the players that they are Powerful.

 

On the other hand, I tend to let almost any Super class character build up some Mental Defense, and I'll allow gadget based Flash Def, Life Support, etc. Power Def is a special case; you really need an SFX justification for it.

 

Tangent: I don't see the appeal of wiping out your players with agents; this is a superhero story. If ordinary agents are more powerful and cost effective than the heroes, why have supers at all? Make the heroes lives tough, sure, but ordinary human Agents (in a standard campaign) with an endless list of defenses, 10+ OCVs and 12d6+ attacks just raise the question of why anyone cares what the PCs are doing.

[nexus]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

Tangent: I don't see the appeal of wiping out your players with agents; this is a superhero story. If ordinary agents are more powerful and cost effective than the heroes, why have supers at all? Make the heroes lives tough, sure, but ordinary human Agents (in a standard campaign) with an endless list of defenses, 10+ OCVs and 12d6+ attacks just raise the question of why anyone cares what the PCs are doing.

 

You must spread some rep around before giving it to Oddhat again.

[Trebuchet]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

IIRC in our group of 8 characters:

 

Only 2 have Power Defense

 

Only 1 has Flash Defense (However, one other has Spatial Awareness)

 

Only 2 have Mental Defense

 

 

These defenses and the corresponding attacks are rare in the comics. We try to keep them rare in our campaign as well.

[Trebuchet]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

Tangent: I don't see the appeal of wiping out your players with agents; this is a superhero story. If ordinary agents are more powerful and cost effective than the heroes' date=' why have supers at all? Make the heroes lives tough, sure, but ordinary human Agents (in a standard campaign) with an endless list of defenses, 10+ OCVs and 12d6+ attacks just raise the question of why anyone cares what the PCs are doing.[/quote']An excellent point. We're currently in the process of designing our campaign's version of UNTIL, but they will in no way be a match and/or substitute for our team. (We're doing it because it's a plausible development in our game universe.) If agents can easily take down supers, why run supers at all? Why not just run a campaign where the PCs are agents endlessly mowing down villainous supers every game session with high tech toys?

 

You could call it "The Man from UNTIL"

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

Make the heroes lives tough' date=' sure, but ordinary human Agents (in a standard campaign) with an endless list of defenses, 10+ OCVs and 12d6+ attacks just raise the question of why anyone cares what the PCs are doing.[/quote']

 

I don't see the appeal, myself, but Lloyd (the guy who is running when Viper shows up) really likes agents. He's been gushing over the Viper book ever since it came out (and that's one of the reasons I haven't picked up the book -- one does like to have a few mysteries). And this is not to say that the Viper agents, or any of our other villains, are invulnerable. That is not at all what I am getting at. The PCs are the heroes, and they usually win. What I am getting at is that the effective attacks tend to be ordinary physical (or energy) attacks, rather than Mental or Adjustment or whatnot, and that maybe the game would be more interesting if perhaps this was not always so.

[Agent X]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

I don't see the appeal' date=' myself, but Lloyd (the guy who is running when Viper shows up) really likes agents. He's been gushing over the Viper book ever since it came out (and that's one of the reasons I haven't picked up the book -- one does like to have a few mysteries). And this is not to say that the Viper agents, or any of our other villains, are invulnerable. That is not at all what I am getting at. The PCs are the heroes, and they usually win. What I am getting at is that the effective attacks tend to be ordinary physical (or energy) attacks, rather than Mental or Adjustment or whatnot, and that maybe the game would be more interesting if perhaps this was not always so.[/quote'] Well, I have the Viper book, and it is very possible to trick out agents to whip up on superheroes. The writers even suggested ways to make sure heroes had a real tough time with agents. I just don't understand that philosophy. It should take a healthy advantage in the ratio of agents to supers for them to be a threat, IMO.

 

As far as unusual defenses, my heroes tend to spend 5-10 points on mental defense and I call it "strong will", "iron will", or "heroic determination" unless the hero is a young pup. In my group's campaigns, few characters buy power defense. Flash Defense and Lack of Weakness are common but characters are more likely not to have those defenses.

[CBikle]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

Most PCs become interested in the more exotic defenses after a bad run in with a mental power, flash, transform, etc., but often lack the in-game rationale for defining it, much less buying it.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

Not too common in our groups. Two of our groups I'm pretty familiar with.

 

One group - no one with Mental Def I can think of. Two with sight flash defense - one is semi-gadgeteer, other has flashes himself. The latter also has some power defense. That's it. Heck, no one even has a force field.

 

Other group - one character (battlesuit/gadgeteer) with pretty much everything - mental, power, various flash. Another character with sight flash def and power def. Everyone now also has some sound flash def through foci due to our sound character being fond of tossing AE NND's (def is sound flash def) liberally around the battlefield. Several characters also have significant life support.

[phydaux]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

In my group just about everyone has one unusual sense and Flash Defense.

 

Only the Mystic has Mental Defense and Power Defense.

 

Oddly though, the Mystic DOESN'T have Flash Defense.

[JmOz]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

Well, I have the Viper book, and it is very possible to trick out agents to whip up on superheroes. The writers even suggested ways to make sure heroes had a real tough time with agents. I just don't understand that philosophy. It should take a healthy advantage in the ratio of agents to supers for them to be a threat, IMO.

 

As far as unusual defenses, my heroes tend to spend 5-10 points on mental defense and I call it "strong will", "iron will", or "heroic determination" unless the hero is a young pup. In my group's campaigns, few characters buy power defense. Flash Defense and Lack of Weakness are common but characters are more likely not to have those defenses.

 

I think it has a good deal to do with Steve Long's view of Supers (a tend toward the street level character).

 

For a street vigilante a group of viper agents should be a threat, and a nest would take teamwork, stratagy, etc... to take down

 

For a team of heroes, well the agents should go down like bowling pins, not really hurt them much, untill you get to the big bad they all serve mindlessly

[Agent X]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

Oddly though' date=' the Mystic DOESN'T have Flash Defense.[/quote']Makes sense to me. It feels right that many Mystics would just rely on another targeting sense or have to do something to restore their normal sense and Mytics with little versatility would just have to rely on luck and ingenuity.

[Agent X]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

I think it has a good deal to do with Steve Long's view of Supers (a tend toward the street level character).

 

For a street vigilante a group of viper agents should be a threat, and a nest would take teamwork, stratagy, etc... to take down

 

For a team of heroes, well the agents should go down like bowling pins, not really hurt them much, untill you get to the big bad they all serve mindlessly

I have a big problem with Steve Long's philosophy on that score. I'm pretty sure I'm among a large number of Champions players who really are trying to stay very close to comic book genre and not fall into Gamerese too much. C'mon, let's think about what some of those tricked-up Viper Teams would do to the Champions.

[JmOz]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

I have a big problem with Steve Long's philosophy on that score. I'm pretty sure I'm among a large number of Champions players who really are trying to stay very close to comic book genre and not fall into Gamerese too much. C'mon' date=' let's think about what some of those tricked-up Viper Teams would do to the Champions.[/quote']

 

I agree with you.

 

I do want to state that the above on Steve is my opinion based on what he has said and done, not anything he has specificaly stated, much less actualy thinks.

 

Please don't take this as me being disrespectful to Steve, But I do prefer what Darren does over what Steve does. Darren seems to have a better handle on what makes Supers fun (at least to me) than Steve does...

[Chuckg]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

Only 1 has Flash Defense (However' date=' one other has Spatial Awareness)[/quote']

 

Ow. One thing that /is/ quite common in New Sentinels is the # of Targeting Senses other than sight.

 

(Starguard's own Cosmic Awareness, Microman's onboard millimeter-wave radar, Warp's spatial awareness, and our oncoming new character will probably have Targeting Hearing defined as advanced blind-fighting training... and Princess Cyrande has a non-targeting Sense Energy, that will become Targeting as soon as she gets in some danger room time.)

 

Not to mention Horus-Re's own ungodly Sight Group Flash Defense -- then again, Sight Group Flash attacks vs. a sun god just don't look right.

[Trebuchet]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

We do occasionally get hit with Flash attacks. However, with Zl'f's DCV she is very hard to Flash without using EX or AoE Flashes (and even blind her CV is 9 with Skill Levels and before applying martial maneuver bonuses.) She's fought more than once blind. (Her 4th Edition 250 point version actually had Flash Defense bought as polarized goggles; I dropped it when we upgraded to 350 points.) Were Flash to become very common I'd just have her buy a few points of Flash Defense again with XP.

 

In a recent fight our other MA, Eagle Eye, was Flashed. He still closed with his opponent, a demi-brick, by sound and subdued the villain by using Choke Hold over several Phases. It was pretty cool to watch a blinded PC win his fight.

 

And it's sort of hard to Flash our storm diety, Thunderbird, too.

 

(Actually, a second PC, Cyberknight, has Flash Defense as well, but he's semi-retired.)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

Generally, Exotic Defenses (for lack of a better term) tend to flop out right after a group gets completely waylayed by them, in my experience. One game I recall vividly, the entire group gets Area of Effect sight-flashed by a surprise move ... suddenly, the local optometrist had a run on 'polarizing contact lenses'. We ran into someone who had a huge AE END Drain, which up and wrecked us ... lots of Power Defense woven into costumes. Just about everybody fears Mentalists (Probably more than is deserved), so everybody buys Mental Defense.

 

I'm torn on it. Looking at most superhero teams, most people don't have Flash Defense, Power Defense is almost nonexistant (though Mental Defense is probably fairly common). On the other hand, you kind of wonder WHY some of these teams haven't invested in something like that ... shielded costumes or special contact lenses, because when stuff like that DOES hit them, it's usually devastating.

 

On the other hand, to expect to completely nullify a 6d6 Drain, you need to drop 21 points (active points, at least) on Power Defense. 12 points for a 12d6 Flash. 19 (assuming a 10 EGO) Mental Def for a 6d6 Ego Attack. That's a lot of XP. If someone buys the minimum level (5pts), they're just getting a minor buffer against it; someone whose primary 'schtick' is a Flash, Adjustment Power, or Mental Powers is going to be hampered, but not completely hamstrung.

 

As far as the non-damaging Mental powers go, I think most people don't use them 'properly' (a subjective term at best). Using Mind Control and Mental Illusions takes more finesse than many players and GMs I've seen apply ... you're not using a hammer, you're using a scalpel. You don't Mind Control the PC into attacking his teammates ... you Mind Control him into carrying innocent bystanders to safety, which is MUCH easier.

[Chuckg]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

I'm torn on it. Looking at most superhero teams' date=' most people don't have Flash Defense, Power Defense is almost nonexistant (though Mental Defense is probably fairly common). On the other hand, you kind of wonder WHY some of these teams haven't invested in something like that ... shielded costumes or special contact lenses, because when stuff like that DOES hit them, it's usually devastating.[/quote']

 

A counter-example in comics is the Bat-Family, who all share a common equipment load on top of their own unique preferences in utility belts or harnesses -- and in addition to the headset radios, bulletproof spandex, etc., one of those common loads is Sight Group Flash Defense in their Nightvision gear. Hearing Group Flash Defense earplugs are also common with those who like to use Sonic AVLDs, which is a lot of them.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

Generally' date=' Exotic Defenses (for lack of a better term) tend to flop out right after a group gets completely waylayed by them, in my experience.[/quote']

 

Considering that half of my current game group have been playing since the 1980s, there really isn't any need for them to wait for that to happen. They have seen it happen enough.

 

What about when you are GMing? How common are exotic defenses and enhanced senses (which are, in a way, an exotic defense) among your villains and NPCs?

[Enforcer84]

Re: commonality of unusual defenses

 

Spot defense always made its way to our games.

but we had levels. Particularly for mental defense:

 

WIllful 1pt

Strong Willed 3 pts

Iron Willed 5 pts

Anything higher was Superhuman.