Dark Champions - Please no Harbinger of Justice...

Darren Watts · April 15, 2003

If any of you guys owned a game company, you'd put your own PCs in the official universe too. dw

urbwar · April 15, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Dark Champions - Please no Harbinger of Justice...

Originally posted by RDU Neil
You think HoJ is "low" powered? Holy Cow! I'd tremble to see your high power campaigns.

You misunderstood. I said "Low Supers" as in low powered superpowers used in the game. Harbinger is still a human being, just one with alot of experience under his belt. His enemies, much like Batman's, ranges from talented normals like himself, to some of the super powered goons of the Card Shark.

GamePhil · April 15, 2003

Originally posted by Darren Watts
If any of you guys owned a game company, you'd put your own PCs in the official universe too. dw

Oh, yeah.

Steve Long · April 15, 2003

I will comment only briefly, by way of explanation.

It's important to remember that I was specifically instructed to write Dark Champions as a supplement for Champions, not as a genre book, and that Harbinger was developed for and played in more-or-less regular Champions campaigns. As such, he takes advantage of tools (teleportation technology) that would be available to him.

Once the idea of Dark Champions as a "genre" caught on, I gleefully scrapped the idea and just gave him a big Gadget Pool thing (sort of -- long story). Once there's no need for high-tech super-wizardry, I'd rather get rid of it, because those who have observed that it doesn't quite "feel" right are correct. It "felt" just fine for the games he was played in, though, and it fit Dark Champions as I was instructed to write it. So did Copperhead, who's a powered armor character.

Lord Liaden asks:

I've always wondered whether and how much the Harbinger was changed for his writeup in Dark Champions; earned experience or not, I find it hard to imagine him working with any group of PCs as written, even other vigilantes. Harbinger's view of what constitutes a crime, and appropriate punishment, is so extremely black-and-white that I doubt he would be able to cooperate with anyone who wasn't an attitudinal clone of him

He's virtually unchanged. Yes, it's quite a challenge to play him in that respect -- but it's far and away the most exciting, intriguing, and in-depth roleplaying I've ever done. There are few things I miss more in life than the chance to play Harbinger regularly.

While I daresay I drove some GMs crazy, in the end I think everyone enjoyed him.

starblaze · April 15, 2003

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
Harbinger, the Elminster of Dark Champions.

LOL

RDU Neil · April 16, 2003

Originally posted by Steve Long
I will comment only briefly, by way of explanation.

It's important to remember that I was specifically instructed to write Dark Champions as a supplement for Champions, not as a genre book, and that Harbinger was developed for and played in more-or-less regular Champions campaigns. As such, he takes advantage of tools (teleportation technology) that would be available to him.

Once the idea of Dark Champions as a "genre" caught on, I gleefully scrapped the idea and just gave him a big Gadget Pool thing (sort of -- long story).

I find this piece that Steve wrote, very interesting. I always assumed the Dark Champs was just a sub-genre of Champions... the Batman's and Punishers in the shadows as the Avengers soar overhead. I never OCCURRED to me that it was a separate genre until things like Hudson City came out. In that supplement, you had people with code names and costumes, yet their stats were really very "normal." No powers, high tech armor or super gadgets, and would stat out as "best of the best" in an old Danger International campaign... but would never survive more than an evening in most Champions games. It was startling, to me.

My question is, to those who've used Dark Champs a lot... did your adventures tie in with a superworld (as mine did) or did you create your own Dark Champions universe/genre world?

Note: I've always kept my old DI campaign very VERY real world, and separate from any superworld stuf. I may have used Dark Champs book information, but the DI game was trying to reenact things like To Live & Die In LA... not comics.

Note II: I did use the characters from Hudson City as a group of vigilantes trying to live up to the crime fighting of Vengeance and Phantom Hawk in my supersworld. They learned how out of their depth they were, very quickly.

CPaladino · April 16, 2003

My group is less fans of 4-color, so ours was a stand-alone universe in that we played 4-color champs. a few times, and after DC never went back, the world never was fully spelled out in great detail so the world evolved as such and it was no big deal. (It would have sucked if I had done a ton of work on a 4-color world and then we liked DC better, lots of changing).

As far as my "i don't like this so make it go away from future products." I guess it did come off that way. I guess I should have said "In his current 800 pt. form, I'm not a fan of him being the mascot."

I don't have much problem with the idea behind the character given (like Steve said) he fit in the DC universe more (no teleporting tech.; etc.). But he's just too "god-like" in his current form (even if the gun pool became non-teleporting, but just a standard VPP or what-have-you).

The champions team (Ironclad, Defender, etc) are based on the same points a standard character would be based on, so I'd assume that HoJ if used, would be the same points that a standard DC character would be. I'll assume this will be 350 for a super-DC campaign, or less for a street-level type.

JmOz · April 16, 2003

Steve,

Thank you for your comments

I'm going to make a few comments to everyone on my opinions on Harbinger:

I had 3 major problems with the character:

1) I found the VPP to be inappropriate for the setting (Glad to see Steve feels the same way, and I understand why now)

2) Gun #1 should have had a write up (think I might start a thread to that effect)

3) I felt a base CV of 13 with 14 levels is overkill, let me rephase that:

CV of 10 with 10 levels is overkill, that was just a inherent wrongness. I am sure that is once again because of his more 4-color roots

BarryB · April 16, 2003

Originally posted by RDU Neil
My question is, to those who've used Dark Champs a lot... did your adventures tie in with a superworld (as mine did) or did you create your own Dark Champions universe/genre world?

When I had a Dark Champions campaign, it was set in the same world as the super supers.

This did pose problems that have come up in other threads, notably involving a Batman write-up. I came to feel that some characters required two write-ups: one for Champions and one for Dark Champions.

While I agree that the thing that makes Dark Champions "dark" is the small-scale and gritty nature of the scenarios, it's a lot easier to enforce the genre conventions if the characters are fairly low-powered. When you have a martial artist who is tough enough to take damage from robotic killing machines and who can carve up a tank for breakfast, then it's kind of hard to challenge him in a DC campaign.

RDU Neil · April 16, 2003

Originally posted by BarryB
When I had a Dark Champions campaign, it was set in the same world as the super supers.

This did pose problems that have come up in other threads, notably involving a Batman write-up. I came to feel that some characters required two write-ups: one for Champions and one for Dark Champions.

While I agree that the thing that makes Dark Champions "dark" is the small-scale and gritty nature of the scenarios, it's a lot easier to enforce the genre conventions if the characters are fairly low-powered. When you have a martial artist who is tough enough to take damage from robotic killing machines and who can carve up a tank for breakfast, then it's kind of hard to challenge him in a DC campaign.

Ah... the two write ups concept. I've never had to use it, but I know what you mean. As I said somewhere else, Batman in Detective is a completely different character than Batman in the JLA.

In my campaign world, since it is more internally consistent than comic universes, I originally wrestled with the "What do you do with Batman/Cap, when the JLA/Avengers start dealing with alien invasions, and such." Or... "How can you have a team with a Thor and an Ant-Man on it as PCs?"

My answer was three fold:

1) My universe was never four color, though there were super powers. 1500 point Superman types didn't exist... those were the NPC gods like Zeus, etc. or big bads like Dr. D. So power ranges weren't so extreme.

2) Concept was more important than PC balance, so if your concept called for a well trained normal... expect to be outclassed in full blown super battles. (Even as a kid, I always thought it cheesy that Cap on a space cycle was any kind of threat to invading Kree armada's. Yes... as a tactical, inspirational leader, he can have an effect... but when he can bowl over Skrull shock troops in the same manner he bowls over jewel thieves, it lessens the threat, drastically.)

3) I alwasy discussed "character" before the game. Since the RDU is a big world, it was fine for players to have many different PCs. They could have the world beating Mega Man... and the sneaky, street fighter The Fist... both built on 300 pts., but one clearly outclasses the other in raw power, and the second has skills and fighting ability out the wazoo. Rarely do they meet... but that's fine. It's a big world and tey both have their place.

Using these concepts, I've stayed away from the "2 write up" syndrome.

Grailknight · April 16, 2003

Harbringer

After reading Steve's comments, I can see Dark Champions in a more forgiving light. I always thought the characters fit the feel that was desired but I had real problems with the power levels used. I would like to see Harbringer in a version that is lower powered to fit street level campaigns.

JmOZ, You hit upon my main problem with DC, the outrageous skill levels. If it were just Harbringer and Panathanos, it would be okay beacuse they represent the pinnacle a character can attain, but you repeatedly see characters with +3 combat, +3 specific weapon, and +4 hit locations. Overall DC was higher powered than most 4th edition campaign supplements because the attacks were at the same power level with much higher ocv's. If Steve had been allowed to write it as a standalone universe, I like to think that he'd have kept the levels more in check.

April 16, 2003

Panthanatos...

(shudder)

My oh my that character was nasty.

I also wanted to see a writeup for gun #1, but just figured it was a really big killing attack.

Personally, I didn't mind Harbinger having all those levels, because he's supposed to mow down crooks like nobody's business. He's Batman gone crazy. Iconic characters aren't supposed to be balanced. I always had a problem with the Champions being the big team on the block, when they were only starting characters. The Harbinger was a true icon.

The only other problem (besides the teleport thingy) I had with him was that he was built inefficiently. I went through and saved that character a good 150 points with just a couple of tweaks. All perfectly legal.

Dex, only for combat, at -1/4? No! Bad Steve! Take "Does not affect figured" at -1/2. It gives you skill rolls, too. And a +1/4 "Gun teleportation cannot be traced" on his VPP??? You don't need that! It's not a real teleport! That's just the special effect of the VPP! Get those points back!

You got to squeeze every last point you can, man! SQUEEZE those points!

JmOz · April 17, 2003

I always figured gun 1 was a

2.5d6 RKA Penetrating, 32 Charges 4-clips and a 2.5d6 RKA AF-5, 32 charges 4 clips all as an OAF (technicaly two powers in the VPP)

The Mad GM · April 17, 2003

I am probably prejudiced about this, but I have always had a fondness in my heart for the big H and his nemesis Cardshark. It had a sort of bridging quality between DC and 4 color, like the old Batman TV show crossed with the movie Seven. And frankly you have to admire the persistence it takes to play a character that much in the face of being hunted by just about every other character in the group.

I have a pretty good idea what gun #1's write up is, but I ain't tellin'. Basically it is up to the individual GM to figure out an attack that would do significant Body damage to the higher level bricks, then double it.

Since Steve played him up from a regular four-color character, I'm curious what a 'hindsighted' version of a starting character would look like. I have a sneaky suspicion that he raised the starting points from 250 to 350 just so he could make a 'starting' Harbinger that he could live with .

BobGreenwade · April 17, 2003

Originally posted by The Mad GM
I am probably prejudiced about this, but I have always had a fondness in my heart for the big H and his nemesis Cardshark.

At the aforementioned GameStorm get-together I learned that I'm not the only person who refers to him as "Harby."

Enforcer84 · April 17, 2003

I always wanted to see a no holds barred smack-a-thon between Panthanatos and Jade Tiger...

Patriot · April 17, 2003

In my campaign, I use BMK mostly as an information broker

A coulpe of the vigilante types on the team were staking out a rave, looking for A vampire who mas a thumb on the crime in Chicago, it just so happened that BMK was there also , looking for someone else. They traded info , BMK terrified them into staying out of his way, the jumped off the side of the building and Vanishing Teleported away.

Out of game the players were like ...Coool!

in game it was like ...I hope he dont show up again.

Played right no matter how you want to use him , ay any level , he makes a great addition to the game, anywhere from Street-level, through high powered (Pcs are averaging at about 500 points right now)

One team member was hunted by him years ago, Acritical success on an attack did enough damage to kill an opponent, BMK contacted another team mate, and talked him into selling out the first one...it was a great story.

Ranxerox · April 18, 2003

I would just like to post a general agreement with CPaladino.

I bought DC hoping for a lot of 250 pt villians because that is where I had my characters start off at and where I felt most comfortable with with the players vs. normals. It ade them clearly super but not so much more powerful than normals thta they could afford to ignore them.

Unfortunately, even though it was the recommended starting point in grey book Champions, few of the characters in the enemy books were even close to that few points. Consequently I was really hoping that DC would correct that shortage. So you can imagine my dismay when I took home my brand new copy and opened it up to immediately see this 800 pt monstrosity. Most of the villians listed in that book were between 400 and 600 pts and without serious nerfing would have eaten my players for breakfast.

When 5th Ed DC comes out, I don't mind If it still has HoJ but I would appreciate a larger number of low power villians than the first DC. Because even though the new Champions recommends 350 pt characters, I still like the feel of 250 pt characters and I've never enjoyed nerfing my villians.

My two cents.

Vulcan · June 20, 2008