McCoy Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Re: More space news! That sounds good on paper' date=' but at best it would only offset the energy cost of raising the "shared" weight -- any extra in the upgoing car (like satellite/ship parts/consumables) would still need an energy input.[/quote'] Ideally some of the upgoing cargo would be balanced by cargo manufactured in space heading down, but yes, you're right, some power source will be needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Re: More space news! McCoy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Re: More space news! A) We've had military railguns since the 1980s. By "railgun" I in this case mean what is technically called an electromagnetic launch assist device or a mass driver; a tool to put stuff into Earth capture orbit from deep space without having to lug out fuel for it. It is no more a weaponizable system than any other system capable of putting tons of payload into earth orbit is. That was exaclty my logic. When you palce it in the asteroid field, you might be able to cause nuclear bomb level explosions and have a lot of ammunition... This is why I prefer an old stand by: Artificial gravity. Set up a rotation crew capsule and you can easily have Martian gravity' date=' or earth gravity with a bit of effort. As for moving things, it's generally easier to move things around when you don't have to compensate for other forces like friction gravity (at least when dealing with solids and gasses. Liquids are different, but that's why we have artificial gravity).[/quote'] That helps when living, but not while mining. Without air and gravity it's not that easy to catch the ore/regolith pieces once you have seperated it from the large rock. And spinning the asteroid as whole would cost a lot of energy with doublfull effect. Another problem is security: You have to mine big asteroids or one colission with one of the numerous small asteroids could destroy your mining site. And following a lot of small asteroids is a big problem to predict/avert such a colission is a problem. I'm still waiting for the other way around' date=' a ground based rail gun /mass driver /catapult that lets us throw bulk cargo to LEO. Cancer says the air resistance is an insurmountable problem. I'm not so sure.[/quote'] Escape velocity (without further acceleration) is more than 11 km/s. Unless there is some effect similar to supercavity in water, Mach 8-9 will be serious stress for your freight capsule. Friction is not a problem. The air would really like to go out of your way, but you just to let it the time. You're probably right' date=' and if I had to bet it would be with you and Cancer. But I'm not yet convinced that there is not still a chance we've overlooked something. Mass driver launched ram jet? Doubtful the mechanism could take the G forces. Powerful laser beam ionizing the are along the flight path? Probably not. Shaping the progectile to minimize air resistance, and coating it with something several orders of magnitude slipperyer than Teflon? Good start, not enough by itself. [i']Something.[/i] I think the idea with an earth bound laser even is a current plan. The test for the atomic Project Orion show that explosion-drive is possible and lasers could cause the air to explode at the driver plate. It especially helps that you don't have to carry your drive and fuel along. Of course the energy demand is a problem. Nasa recruiting new astronauts for International Space Station Nasa? Not NASA? Nasa has become a proper noun? I think you miscopied the link, this one should work: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/8998717/Nasa-recruiting-new-astronauts-for-International-Space-Station.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Re: More space news! A) We've had military railguns since the 1980s. By "railgun" I in this case mean what is technically called an electromagnetic launch assist device or a mass driver; a tool to put stuff into Earth capture orbit from deep space without having to lug out fuel for it. It is no more a weaponizable system than any other system capable of putting tons of payload into earth orbit is. Can you expand on your usage of the term "military" in the above statement? Afaik, no vessel or non-research emplacement has ever had a railgun/mass driver installed that could be used to throw stuff at someone else in a targetable way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Re: More space news! Can you expand on your usage of the term "military" in the above statement? Afaik' date=' no vessel or non-research emplacement has ever had a railgun/mass driver installed that could be used to throw stuff at someone else in a targetable way.[/quote'] There was this experimental railgun of the US Navy, but that was canceled recently. Or at least it wasn't financed in the first draft for the budget. In either chase it is decades away from pratical useability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnaskar Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Re: More space news! Can you expand on your usage of the term "military" in the above statement? Afaik' date=' no vessel or non-research emplacement has ever had a railgun/mass driver installed that could be used to throw stuff at someone else in a targetable way.[/quote'] I was thinking more on the lines of what eventually became EMALS. Basically an electromagnetic railway with an open end used to save fuel on launch (the older variants launched missiles rather than planes, and have never been particularly far spreed), rather than the traditional gun. Though, as it turns out, the Yugoslavian EDO-0 was the first actual gun type railgun in 1985, so I wasn't that far off in any case. And by military I mean working prototype, not necessarily a full military deployment. We're still waiting on the first railgun battle-cruiser. (And on that note, I'm off to GURPS vehicles to stat up one of those to pit against a Gerald R. Ford Class carrier. Hm, it would have to shoot accurately over the horizon, so some kind of satellite integration system would be needed. Also, lots of anti air and anti missile capacity. And it has to be able to outrun a carrier fleet, and avoid the outlying subs. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Re: More space news! Most naval surface search radars have a range limit of around 50-60 miles. A threat-level railgun could easily exceed that range, although it would be dependent on satellite intelligence the same way the target naval group would be in defending against it. I dunno what the actual velocity of the round would be...I assume somewhere between Mach 6 and Mach 12(1 to 2 miles per second). That would be too fast and too small to detect or intercept readily, and would punch through a hull and do substantial damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted February 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Re: More space news! NASA Probe Discovers Matter From Beyond Our Solar System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted February 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Re: More space news! Russia's Space Woes Stress NASA's Need For Private Spaceships Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Re: More space news! Russia's Space Woes Stress NASA's Need For Private Spaceships The recent delay of the next manned launch to the International Space Station due to a damaged Russian space capsule highlights NASA's critical need for commercially built vehicles, space policy experts say. I may be wrong, but that seems like an example of 'Beggin the Question'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Re: More space news! It almost got past me. I had to search to even find the english source, but I finally mananged: Nasa Considers Deep Space station above the Dark Side of the Moon (Note: EML propably means Earth/Moon Lagrange Point 2, at least according to the german interpretation of the same report) The NASA Lunar Science Institute reports that a team of space experts has been working with Lockheed Martin to assess the possibility of a deep space moon outpost at EML-2. The LUNAR center is contemplating the possibility of human missions to EML-2, which would allow scientists to plan future missions to deep space and to conduct exciting news research projects. In a LUNAR center white paper, which was provided to Space.com, space experts contend that astronauts would travel 15 percent farther from Earth in an EML-2 mission than the Apollo astronauts did. The astronauts would also be in deep space three times longer than the Apollo astronauts were. According to Space.com, Mr. Gerstenmaier’s memo contained six strategic principles for deep space exploration. Some of the strategic principles suggest that NASA is looking outside of its own budget in order to fund such a costly project. One of the strategic principles highlighted by NASA is the use of International Space Station partnerships to make an EML-2 mission possible. The memo also suggests that NASA can reduce costs by utilizing the private sector. Furthermore, the memo illustrates the need to build infrastructure that can be both reused and re-purposed for other deep space adventures. An EML-2 mission would give scientists the ability to answer a number of important questions about deep space exploration. For example, what kind of radiation would deep space astronauts be exposed to on the far side of the moon? “This is extremely exciting from both the exploration and science sides,” Jack Burns, director of Lunar University Network for Astrophysics Research, posited to Space.com. “This mission concept seems to be really taking off now because it is unique and offers the prospects of doing something significant outside of low-Earth orbit within this decade,” Mr. Burns added. Read more: http://www.thestatecolumn.com/articles/2012/02/13/nasa-probes-deep-space-moon-mission/#ixzz1mLzOrBKe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Re: More space news! It almost got past me. I had to search to even find the english source, but I finally mananged: Nasa Considers Deep Space station above the Dark Side of the Moon (Note: EML propably means Earth/Moon Lagrange Point 2, at least according to the german interpretation of the same report) [/color][/left] First, Kewl! Second, if we are putting something at L-2, we have to put at least an automated relay station at L-4 or L-5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Re: More space news! I think it'll be easier and perhaps better to put a set of relay satellites in LLO (Low Lunar Orbit) rather than L4/L5, assuming you have your primary work station at L2. Something which has slowly come to be realized is that the L4/L5 points are stable ... which means they accumulate trash. There's a lot of debris which librates around -- and through -- the stable Lagrange points. It's almost like a backwater where trash is going to accumulate (and it'll collide with whatever you put there). A relay satellite at L4/L5 also would double the communications lag time to the station, simply because the distance Earth <--> L4/L5 <--> L2 is fixed at slightly more than twice the Earth-Moon separation, so you're talking 2.5 second one-way lag time rather 1.25 seconds for that set of LLO relays. That may not matter, but then again it might. It'd certainly be much more annoying for voice communications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Re: More space news! First, Kewl! Second, if we are putting something at L-2, we have to put at least an automated relay station at L-4 or L-5. Are you certain? I mean L2 is pretty far out, we have a lot of sattelites we can put into outer earth orbit and afaik the moon has no radio-disrupting layers of atmosphere and no relevant magnetic field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Re: More space news! This is good news, though tempered by the cuts to Mars exploration in the proposed budget. I'm not surprised given the political/economic situation, but it still sucks. I mean, we recently found evidence for flowing water on Mars. I'm anxious to see if that can be confirmed. As for L2, I wonder if all that's needed is a relay station with a tall antenna at one of the lunar poles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Re: More space news! The problem is that L2 is on the Lunar far side, directly opposite Earth. You can't transmit through the Moon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Re: More space news! This is good news, though tempered by the cuts to Mars exploration in the proposed budget. I'm not surprised given the political/economic situation, but it still sucks. I mean, we recently found evidence for flowing water on Mars. I'm anxious to see if that can be confirmed. As for L2, I wonder if all that's needed is a relay station with a tall antenna at one of the lunar poles. Maybe NASA can do a Kickstarter for a manned Mars mission. Those game-makers got over a million. I figure if they have the right incentive levels, and they hold it open for 10-20 years, they can get it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Re: More space news! Venus's rotation mysteriously slows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Re: More space news! Venus's rotation mysteriously slows. If it was any slower it would be going backward. Oh, wait -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Re: More space news! Venus's rotation mysteriously slows. The comments for that article are full of facepalm and fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Re: More space news! The comments for that article are full of facepalm and fail. Especialyl this one is good: Wow. These "scientists" are really missing the mark here. Here's betting they find out the following: a) That core = molten. The 20km or so difference in locations of features = from violent earthquakes/volcanism. c) The lengthening of Venus's day by 6 minutes = also a side effect from techtonic processes. Perhaps a signficant increase in land mass/density is ocurring via volcanism on the planet. Much like what happens to Earth when there are significant seismic events. Both the Japan and Chile earthquakes displaced enough crust to impact Earth's rotation. It doesn't take somebody with a doctorate to come up with a reasonable explanation. Accordring to this theory the "tectonic activity" lifted the entire surface layer up, rotated 20 km against (or in direction of) the rotational axis, and let it down again. That is an amazing feat for any tectonic activity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted February 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Re: More space news! Ozone layer found on Venus Swiss satellite will clean up space junk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Re: More space news! Swiss satellite will clean up space junk They really should of call it Quark:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnaskar Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Re: More space news! Maybe NASA can do a Kickstarter for a manned Mars mission. Those game-makers got over a million. I figure if they have the right incentive levels' date=' and they hold it open for 10-20 years, they can get it done.[/quote'] Of the top of my head (assuming a Mars Semi-direct mission profile using the Falcon Heavy as a launch vehicle with the Orion as an interplanetary vessel and a modified Altair as a landing module; goal funding level: 50 billion dollars): Pledge 100 million $ or more: Limited Reward (50 out of 50 remaining) You get to choose one company, person, symbol or flag to be included amongst our top 100 sponsors. These will be displayed in a 10x10 grid used in the background of every major press conference. Terms and conditions apply. Pledge 250 million $ or more: Limited Reward (20 out of 20 remaining) In addition to the 100 million tier reward you get to select one item, weighting no more than 500 grams, to be used by the crew on camera at some point during the journey. Using the item should not take more than 5 minutes. Terms and conditions apply. Pledge 500 million $ or more: Limited Reward (4 out of 4 remaining) In addition to the 100 million tier reward you get to select one item, weighting no more than 2 kilo, to be used by the crew on camera at some point during the journey. Using the item should not take more than 15 minutes. Terms and conditions apply. Pledge 750 million $ or more: Limited Reward (1 out of 1 remaining) In addition to the 100 million tier reward you get to select one item, weighting no more than 10 kilos, to be used by the crew on camera as the first action undertaken on the surface of another planet. Using the item should not take more than 30 minutes. Terms and conditions apply. Pledge 1 billion $ or more: Limited Reward (19 out of 19 remaining) You get to choose one company, person, symbol or flag to be included amongst our top 25 sponsors. These will be displayed in a 5x5 grid, and will be visible in the background of every press conference, in the beginning and end of every film report and on our web site. Terms and conditions apply. Pledge 5 billion $ or more: Limited Reward (2 out of 2 remaining) In addition to the 1 billion tier reward you get to choose the color scheme on one of the rockets used to launch support materials to mars. You want it to be a giant coke bottle? A giant Chinese flag? The stars and stripes? Terms and conditions apply. Pledge 10 billion $ or more: Limited Reward (1 out of 1 remaining) In addition to the 1 billion tier reward you get to choose the color scheme on the rocket used to launch the crew on the big day. You want it to be a giant coke bottle? A giant Chinese flag? The stars and stripes? Terms and conditions apply. Pledge 15 billion $ or more: Limited Reward (2 out of 2 remaining) In addition to the 1 billion tier reward you, or a person of your choice, get a seat on the first manned flight to Mars, assuming you can make it through the training program. Terms and conditions apply. Pledge 25 billion $ or more: Limited Reward (1 out of 1 remaining) In addition to the 1 billion tier reward you, or a person of your choice, get a seat on the first manned flight to Mars, assuming you can make it through the training program. In addition, baring some kind of emergency situation, you will be the first person to leave the capsule on the Martian surface. As if that wasn’t enough, you also get to name our primary sponsor. Terms and conditions apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Re: More space news! The Difficulties of Interstellar Travel, or "How the Hell do I Calculate the Way Home?" Looks like the drive isn't the most complicated part... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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