Old Man Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Re: More space news! China's space plans up to 2016 I wish them the best of luck. If they ever do manage to land a human on the Moon and return him safely to the Earth, my response will be, "Great job! Here is your second-place medal. Now try it without computers." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Re: More space news! I wish them the best of luck. If they ever do manage to land a human on the Moon and return him safely to the Earth' date=' my response will be, "Great job! Here is your second-place medal. Now try it without computers."[/quote'] LOL! Repped for truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Re: More space news! LOL! Repped for truth. When the japanese after WW2 went around on automobile shows, photographing the engine compartment of the newest cars, everybody found that funny. Nowadays there are among the bigest automobile producers. I would neither under- nor overestimate that step of china. While they still have a long way to go, don't forget one thing: They are on their way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Re: More space news! When the japanese after WW2 went around on automobile shows, photographing the engine compartment of the newest cars, everybody found that funny. Nowadays there are among the bigest automobile producers. I would neither under- nor overestimate that step of china. While they still have a long way to go, don't forget one thing: They are on their way. We should go again, just so we can congratulate them on 3rd place when they make it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Re: More space news! If we're counting each trip separately then China's already in seventh! I do think China is on their way and should not be underestimated. But they will never be first to the moon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Re: More space news! If we're counting each trip separately then China's already in seventh! I do think China is on their way and should not be underestimated. But they will never be first to the moon. Being the first to land is not as important as being the first to stay.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Re: More space news! Being the first to land is not as important as being the first to stay.... That is a good point. We should definately go back -- to stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Re: More space news! That is a good point. We should definately go back -- to stay. But the measly pittance it would take can be better spent on [del]pork-barrel projects in my constituency[/url] useful projects at home! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Re: More space news! But the measly pittance it would take can be better spent on pork-barrel projects in my constituency useful projects at home! Someone builds all the parts that make up the rocket. People make the fuel for it. That means jobs, does it not? (And I fixed the strikethrough for you. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Re: More space news! But the measly pittance it would take can be better spent on [del]pork-barrel projects in my constituency[/url] useful projects at home! I hate to be Mr. Wet Blanket here, but saying that something that is actually very hard and very expensive would be easy doesn't make it so. The reason that we're not on the Moon right now is that it is precisely a very expensive and complicated place to live. You know, the lack of water? We need to colonise the poles, and that's a hugely expensive rocketry project, leading to the conclusion that we should master orbital refuelling first; leading to the conclusion that we should master living in orbit first; leading to the prioritisation of the ISS. We chose to go this route forty years ago. It might well be the most clearly defined international project of our age. Patience: all things come to he who waits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Re: More space news! Well, I hope its more like "All things come to those who take time to plan before executing". Waiting by itself means one is standing on the side of the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Re: More space news! Someone builds all the parts that make up the rocket. People make the fuel for it. That means jobs, does it not? (And I fixed the strikethrough for you. ) Yes, but it's apparently politically better to develop 5 rockets (that Nasa won't need) at once, instead of one (that Nasa actually needs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted January 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Re: More space news! Probes may be sent to Europa and Enceladus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Re: More space news! Someone builds all the parts that make up the rocket. People make the fuel for it. That means jobs, does it not? (And I fixed the strikethrough for you. ) Part of what made the shuttle so expensive. I have head that parts were contracted out to EVERY Congressional district. Sounds like there may be some Urban Legend there, can anyone confirm or deny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Re: More space news! Part of what made the shuttle so expensive. I have head that parts were contracted out to EVERY Congressional district. Sounds like there may be some Urban Legend there, can anyone confirm or deny? I believe that was the case for either the B-2 bomber or one of the Advanced Technology Fighters(F-22 or F-35). Never heard of it for the Shuttle, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Re: More space news! Part of what made the shuttle so expensive. I have head that parts were contracted out to EVERY Congressional district. Sounds like there may be some Urban Legend there, can anyone confirm or deny? I don't know about that (I have my doubts), but I do know that NASA's activities are completely dictated in Congress. They cannot divert resources and personnel from one project to another in the event one needs help and the other is cruising ahead of schedule. The only thing that isn't controlled at that level, I guess, is the peer-reviewed science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Re: More space news! I don't know about that (I have my doubts)' date=' but I do know that NASA's activities are completely dictated in Congress. They cannot divert resources and personnel from one project to another in the event one needs help and the other is cruising ahead of schedule. The only thing that isn't controlled at that level, I guess, is the peer-reviewed science.[/quote'] Except during certain administrations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnaskar Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Re: More space news! We need to colonise the poles, and that's a hugely expensive rocketry project, leading to the conclusion that we should master orbital refuelling first; leading to the conclusion that we should master living in orbit first; leading to the prioritisation of the ISS. We chose to go this route forty years ago. Then why has NASA systematically cancelled all proposed ISS orbital refueling experiments? The only refueling experiment ever done was in 2009 by the US Air Force, and that was geared towards figuring out how propellant acts in zero gee to build more efficient propellant tanks rather than refueling. And why has NASA systematically cancelled all proposed artificial gravity experiments? The negative effects of zero gee is one of the known problems with living in space, yet the last experiment in preventing it predates Apollo. NASA didn't choose the ISS route because it was the best choice for humanity, they chose it because they hoped it would bankrupt the soviets, tie up their scientific resources and give the already obsolete shuttle program something to do. If the goal had been to build an international space station they would have done it in three Saturn V launches at a tenth of the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Re: More space news! .. If the goal had been to build an international space station they would have done it in three Saturn V launches at a tenth of the cost. Congrats, dude. Lots of people on the Internet don't even know what begging the question is, never mind how to do it half that well. NASA doesn't have unlimited money, which is sad. So it has to make tough choices about which experiments it is going to do. The argument is that the ISS has been insanely expensive because it's done a very good job demonstrating just how much harder it is to live and work in orbit than the handwave school thinks it really must be. And that's the thing. NASA and its partner agencies keep saying that this is hard stuff to do, and we need to spend lots of money to get these things right, and the experiments and trials can't come together instantly, so it will take time, too. And the critics keep saying, in effect, "Neener neener no noes." Maybe there's a grand conspiracy to stop space exploration by ...spending lots of money on it. And maybe, just conceivably maybe, NASA actually has a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Re: More space news! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWqh9WBJT18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: More space news! Then why has NASA systematically cancelled all proposed ISS orbital refueling experiments? The only refueling experiment ever done was in 2009 by the US Air Force, and that was geared towards figuring out how propellant acts in zero gee to build more efficient propellant tanks rather than refueling. And why has NASA systematically cancelled all proposed artificial gravity experiments? The negative effects of zero gee is one of the known problems with living in space, yet the last experiment in preventing it predates Apollo. NASA didn't choose the ISS route because it was the best choice for humanity, they chose it because they hoped it would bankrupt the soviets, tie up their scientific resources and give the already obsolete shuttle program something to do. If the goal had been to build an international space station they would have done it in three Saturn V launches at a tenth of the cost. The people I know in the astronomy and planetary geosciences fields hate the ISS passionately because it sucks up the lion's share of the space exploration budget without providing anything like a reasonable ROI in terms of science. About all it can do is long term microgravity experiments, and you don't really need a permanent station to do that. That said, I don't think there's a conspiracy involved so much as ignorant political interference. What's sexier, a robot probe or a manned space station? What's sexier, a tin can disposable rocket or a space shuttle that looks like an airplane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: More space news! The people I know in the astronomy and planetary geosciences fields hate the ISS passionately because it sucks up the lion's share of the space exploration budget without providing anything like a reasonable ROI in terms of science. About all it can do is long term microgravity experiments, and you don't really need a permanent station to do that. That said, I don't think there's a conspiracy involved so much as ignorant political interference. What's sexier, a robot probe or a manned space station? What's sexier, a tin can disposable rocket or a space shuttle that looks like an airplane? If they think that the ISS is spending all their lunch money, wait till they get a look at the budget for a Moon colony. The ISS may not produce much cost effective science, but that's because of what it has taught us about what we can't easily do in space. Better there than on the Moon. (If we could get a colony there, which we can't.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: More space news! Most of the space scientists I am acquainted with are far more interested in unmanned missions than anything with a human aboard, and the lack of Pu-238 is more or less life-ending for anything past Mars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: More space news! Most of the space scientists I am acquainted with are far more interested in unmanned missions than anything with a human aboard' date=' and the lack of Pu-238 is more or less life-ending for anything past Mars.[/quote']Then most space scientes you are aquainted with have a very narrow view of humanities future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: More space news! Well, for one thing, the mass/energy/money requirements go up considerably once you add human astronauts to the mission profile. Sending a half dozen people to Mars and back is vastly more expensive than sending another half dozen Mars rovers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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