atlascott Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 As a big, old nerd, I am concerned about declining sales in our hobby. It certainly isnt me--why, last night alone, I bought the Spacer's Toolkit, and I must spend about $300/year at least on RPG stuff. Alot of us older guys buy alot of stuff. I also noticed that the vast majority of guys at a con I was at last year are in the neighborhood of my age (36)--late 20's thru early 40's. I remeber going to GenCon years ago when it was in Milwaukee, and there were young-uns and old folks alike. I think we may be missing the young-uns. I also remember that gaming was a source of alot of fun for me when I was younger--it helped me make friends, and stay out of trouble. This hobby of ours, though snickered at by the general population (better than being burned at the stake, as was in vogue in the late 80's), is a clean, fun, healthy, great, lifetime pastime. You do not need to be an athlete or cheerleader or even good-looking to be successful and hae a great time! We need to make efforts at reaching out to troubled kids, shy kids, the loners, those with few or no friends. We need to get gaming in their hands, give it to them as a possibility for fun and friendship in their lives, through those hard, early years. Most gamers I know really blossomed in their late 20's or 30's into more confident and socially-able people. I suspect gaming helped alot fo us thru crappy teenage years. The question is: HOW DO WE DO IT? Or, should we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program Maybe the witch hunts of the 80s gave us the rebel self-image as gamers. We should all start a letter-writing campaign decrying the evils of Role-Playing Games, especially that nasty Hero System which encourages demon summoning in Valdorian Age and vigilantism in Dark Champions, and bring in the younger generation that way. What's even better, we can start them off with Sidekick and hint that there are greater mysteries that they have not yet been inducted into. Then one day, "BEHOLD! 5ER!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program First off, stay away from young children before you get arrested for being a molester. There's nothing wrong with bringing new blood to the hobby. The easiest way to start is with your own children or children of family members. You'd be surprised at how quickly you can get a gaggle of kids together once you get one involved and like the game. The next thing you know 10 friends want to play and learn too. Join the Legion of Heroes too. DoJ will pay you $1.00 for each 100 children you bring into the fold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tae Kwon Dan Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 CCG's and MMORPG's . . . It's the CCG's and MMORPG's that are doing us in IMO. Don't get me wrong I enjoy the above (well would enjoy MMORPG's, but thus far I have successfully managed to stay away from them in a campaign to remember what the sun looks like.) MMORPG's offer more immediate satisfaction without having to learn a rule system and without having to use your imagination so that attracts a lot of young gamers away. The growing prevalence of money tournaments in popular CCG titles (Magic, Vs. and even Wars) definitely attracts a lot of young skilled gamers who end up sinking their time and money into that instead of RPG's. I mean CCG's are fun and you can make money at them. RPG's are just fun. So I'm not certain how you bring the young into the fold, because the things that were gateway games when I was young (Magic, Necromunda, Star Wars: CCG) have become the same thing that keep people out of RPG's. I also think the decrease in FLGS's and the growth in internet sales has hurt. I got into CCG's first then started playing Necromunda before upgrading to Warhammer fantasy and 40K all at a play with guys that also were RPG'ers. I got to be friends with them and we started playing CoC and thus a future RPG'er was born. Now the successful FLGS's almost solely cater to the CCG and miniature crowd and roleplayers don't hang unless they're into the above and most of them certainly don't game in store as much anymore.* I'm not certain how to fix this, because I will continue to game at my house instead of a gaming store. *I'm speaking pretty much for the Atlanta area. We really only have one large store that caters to RPG'ers and even then it's mostly a CCG and 40K arena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortuorum` Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Re: CCG's and MMORPG's . . . Tae Kwon Dan is right. There are simply a lot more nerd activities available to kids today than when us old folks were teenagers. Collectable card games (Magic, Pokemon, etc.), miniatures gaming (HeroCLix, Mage Knight, Star Wars, etc.), videogames and computer games all compete with RPGs for the young geek's time and money. The kids you do see at cons are much more likely to be playing something besides a pen-and-paper RPG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Re: CCG's and MMORPG's . . . When I was a young lad I read comics books, I played RPGs, I played miniature games, I played games on my commodore 64 and Atari, I even played on my hand-held football dot game, which I don't remember who made it [Mattel?}. I even went outside and played sports. There are always things to divide a child's time. RPGs aren't obsolete or dead. They just don't understand their place in the universe any more. Eventually they will realize though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plex Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program I think I may have helped propigate the game nerds locally in my area. I recently started up a fantasy game and a couple of the pc's brought their sons with them to introduce them to the game. (I believe the 2 kids are right around 13) The kids liked it so much that they introduced it to their friends and now there's this large group of kids running around with game books sticking out of the backpacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crayadder Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program Maybe one way to encourage interest in P&P RPGs is to create more TCGs based on existing RPGs and vice versa. This could stimulate interest both ways by exposing more players of one system to the other. Aside from improving exposure to RPGs, if we get more roleplayers playing TCGs they will be in a position to educate those they play with, which would be a perfect compliment to the interest garnered by creating the TCGs themselves. Obviously, in the area of video games a tonne have been made based on P&P systems and worlds already. I think Neverwinter Nights may have been the best game to interest people in the old-fashioned P&P style with its GMing abilities. Of course this is just off the top of my head. I can see how it might have had the opposite affect, but I'd put my money on it actually helping to a limited extent. I think that the ticket to increasing the RPG gamer population is through educating people on the absolute freedom that P&P provides vs any other venue. Neverwinter can't hold a flame to the ability of a good GM to create an atmosphere where anything you can think of can be voiced, considered, and attempted. In the end P&P is a social construct and the individual's fear of not fitting in with the group, of being ostracized, of meeting new people, is it's greatest hurdle, especially given that it is "snickered at by the general population." - atlascott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crayadder Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program I also agree that the most direct and greatest influence we can have on the health of P&P is through our children. I don't have any yet, but I plan on the bedtime stories being about the worlds and characters I used and visited while gaming. Who wants to hear Cinderella 8000 times anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Re: CCG's and MMORPG's . . . When I was a young lad I read comics books' date=' I played RPGs, I played miniature games, I played games on my commodore 64 and Atari, I even played on my hand-held football dot game, which I don't remember who made it [Mattel?}.[/quote'] Likely Mattel or Coleco. God I loved the coleco one. I even went outside and played sports. There are always things to divide a child's time. RPGs aren't obsolete or dead. They just don't understand their place in the universe any more. Eventually they will realize though. RPGs will never fully die, but they do suffer the way that, say, Baseball cards suffer. Marbles suffer. I actually remember at one time in my childhood that Marbles were the thing to play at my school--and that's a game that inspired a moment of glee from my father when I mentioned it (Probably the only thing we ever shared in common) because of his childhood spent playing it. RPGs will have a brief rennaissance on the schoolgrounds at some point, but don't expect it to ever hit the heights of our day. Not with the intensity of computer games now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silbeg Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Re: CCG's and MMORPG's . . . I even played on my hand-held football dot game' date=' which I don't remember who made it [Mattel?}. [/quote'] Mattel... definately. FYI - they are making them again... or at least they were... I have seen them at Target (since the holidays, but haven't looked since). Almost bought one, to reminice about the days of old... but just couldn't quite do it... ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Re: CCG's and MMORPG's . . . If it was rectangular it was Mattel. If the screen area at the top was larger than the rest of the unit, it was probably Coleco. Talk about useless info... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuk Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program The way to do it is to have your own kids, then teach them to love RPGs. My oldest son already loves RPGs (he does like Clix and cards, too, and we got him Heroscape for Christmas), the two younger daughters have played a time or two, and when the last one is born in July she can run the baby PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program Annother sad truth, that I don't think is "fixable" is that the "You must be this tall to game" sign is set at around 50 bucks these days that a lota dinero for a kid...I can remember being totally freaked by the price tag on Empire of the petal throne...and I unlike many young folks had a few sources of income....Gaming in general has priced it self out of reach....sheesh even game cons are running 40 bucks for a week end, for me thats "OK" but for a kid?..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyMitchell Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program Annother sad truth' date=' that I don't think is "fixable" is that the "You must be this tall to game" sign is set at around 50 bucks these days that a lota dinero for a kid...I can remember being totally freaked by the price tag on Empire of the petal throne...and I unlike many young folks had a few sources of income....Gaming in general has priced it self out of reach....sheesh even game cons are running 40 bucks for a week end, for me thats "OK" but for a kid?.....[/quote']Not sure I buy this one. Kids will drop (or get their parents to drop) $60 in a second on an X-Box title. I've watched teens run to the counter between every round of a Magic tournament to try to buy more cards (not to use in the tourney, but just because they saw something cool). They'd drop $100 in the course of 4 - 5 hours buying cards - and that's not including the cards they bought when the set came out. I don't know where they get the cash, but they seem to have plenty of it.I'm going to tend towards the "lack of glitz and immediacy" argument. You can play a game of Magic in 15 minutes or so with no real difficulty. If you want to pick up the cards and play against someone else, you don't have to wait around. Video games have a lot more immediate appeal than that, for even less effort.Not to get down on the younger generation, but P&P RPGs take (1) imagination and (2) patience to enjoy. Simply put, those commodities are in short supply among the younger set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlin1 Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program We don't want nerds. We want geeks. Lots of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyMitchell Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program We don't want nerds.We want geeks. Lots of them. Yeah, geek is chic. :)So how do we associated RPGs with "geek" instead of "nerd"? The "geek" title is often associated with computer technology, which, in the last 10 years, has become much "cooler" than it was previously (primarily, IMO, from the fact that it's a whole lot easier for the average person to use than it used to be). Maybe DOJ can include a demo copy of HERO Designer with each 5ER purchase? Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program Not to get down on the younger generation, but P&P RPGs take (1) imagination and (2) patience to enjoy. Simply put, those commodities are in short supply among the younger set. I don't quite agree with this. Most of the youth I've had dealings with over the past few years are full of either imagination or patience...just rarely both. My son for example has an imagination that rivals my own, and an level of patience that's near nonexistant. I think if we could get it to where these aspects are balanced out a bit more, and both is large supply, society would be much better off (and the RPG industry would benefit as a happy side effect). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlascott Posted March 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program One big problem is that the FLGS's are disappearing, and/or are misapprehending their place and importance. They should have game space, and be welcoming places. If I ever opened one, that's what I'd do. I'd also offer a monthly membership for 10 or 20 bucks, which would entitle you to a discount on product, and the right to reserve the game spaces (perhaps for a slight additional amount). I would encourage game companies to come in a and demo products. I'd hold tourneys, and competitions, have snack and soda machines as an additional source of revenue. Significantly, I would somehow wheedle young attractive girls to work at the game store--that's get us our young male audience pretty quick! The FLGS is 'neutral territory' where you can post for a group playing a particular game, maybe run a game in store, and decide who is compatible to continue running at your home. A young kid walking into a store like that would drop coin and come back again, and almost certainly make friends. Outside the home. Not in front of the tv, or computer. Heaven. And consider--this hobby is not like Magic-card crack--a $100 investment is all you ever need to run games, and for $20, you got Sidekick and some killer dice. Add pen and paper and you are a rock star. No other hobby comes close to cost-per hour of fun of a good RPG. Even if everyone kicks in $5 for pop/pizza/snacks, its a blast. I feel bad for all the kids out there who, again, are loners or socially inept, and awkward, who are not in this hobby, because they should be. In the heart of every one of these kids is a courageous, daring man or woman, waiting to find a way to express him/herself, and gaming can be a catalyst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlascott Posted March 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program And here's another idea. Every weekend, pay your staff to run an 'open' or 'introductory' game of something new. They are sitting at the store anyway, why not have them run a game. Does that sound like the perfect job, or what? I would have died for a job like that as a teenager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program Atlascott, Maybe we shoud go into business together, because you & I seem to have a very similar idea of how a FLGS should be run. I'd make it an annual membership instead of monthy... $10/mo. is a bit steep... I can mini-golf for less than that. Definately have an open gaming room (no charge, just some cheap tables) with scheduled demos and games. A player-finder bulletin board is a must, as is a highly conspicuous board to post the scheduled events. Snack/soda machines would be cool, but if all you're gonna have are snacks, just devote a few shelves behind the counter for chips and candy bars and a fridge for soda. My ideal store is situated next to a resteraunt of some kind, some kinda deli or sandwich shop with the gaming area serving as additional seating for it. Another must is a Wi-Fi or similar network to allow gamers to bring in their laptops for aids in gaming (and for the staff to research games for their customers) or just checking email as your dropping through to see if that new supplament is out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlascott Posted March 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program I think you are right, Dust Raven! Maybe once I make my fortune in Chicago as a lawyer (still working on it) we can get a business going! My opinion is that you can make ANY business work and be profitable if you are willing to go above and beyond what others do, and exceed customer expectation every time. I have had a FLGS idea rolling int he back of my mind for years. Practicing law is time consuming and exhausting. I would LOVE to open a game store/hobby store. If you can make it a social center, you'll definitely make enough money to keep it open! Location is key--you need to be easily-accessed enough to a reasonably big potential gaming population, and a population with a decent number of the target audience. Then, blow the customers away with the experience, and they will return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Re: Young Nerd Outreach Program Something really silly just occurred to me as I read the title of this thread. Young Nerd Outreach Program = YNOP. Now spell the acronym backwards. Okay, Steve! Now you finally have a PONY! (Now can I write The Ultimate Environment? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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