Classes of Minds

[tinman]

I've been using classes of minds in my Champions campaign, but it has only really applied to NPC's. Until now. One of my players is making up a new character who will be an android (an alien scout) and who will therefore fall under the machine class of mind.

 

The problem is that while I like the idea that he will be a different class of mind than the other PC's (and that this will be obvious to any mentalists he meets), I don't like the idea that he will be immune to most mentalists without really having any corresponding negative drawback or having had to pay any points.

 

I don't mind the immunity per se, but I think it needs to cost him.

 

I figured that 75% Mental Damage Reduction combined with 30 Hardened Resistant Mental Defense pretty much equalled mental invulnerability in nearly any circumstance, and with the limitation: Not vs. Machine Class Mental Powers (-1/4) it works out to about 90 points (depending on EGO).

 

I was thinking that if I charged a flat 100 points to belong to a non-human class of mind that would adequately reflect the benefit of being completely invulnerable to non-class mental powers.

 

Does this seem fair? So far in my entire campaign only one character (an NPC) has had mental abilities that affect machines. I will likely introduce one or two more as the game progresses, but it will still be rare to run into one. Standard mentalists, though still not common, are certainly something the group has to face on a much more regular basis.

 

Thoughts?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Honestly I would hate to impose such a surcharge on the PC. If he is built correctly he has all sorts of inherent limitations that make up for his being relatively immune to mentalists. See the Master List of Limitations posted on http://www.globalguardians.com under the House Rules for examples but ones I like would be Physical Limitation: Repaired not healed; Social Limitation: Machine -no legal rights. If you add in the fact that he should have enhanced per with all his senses, Full Life Support, resistant defenses, and more all bought inherent his points are going to be rapidly dwindling.

 

No the correct and only decision you can make IMO is to either allow the PC or don't allow the PC based on his class of mind. However bear in mind that with a +10 adder any mentalist can affect another class of mind or with a -3EOCV roll and a -10 (-5 Ego Attack only) modifer for Effect Roll. If you use that rule the Android is vulnerable, just less so than a standard PC, which is balanced out by his Disads.

[Mortuorum`]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Does this seem fair? So far in my entire campaign only one character (an NPC) has had mental abilities that affect machines. I will likely introduce one or two more as the game progresses, but it will still be rare to run into one. Standard mentalists, though still not common, are certainly something the group has to face on a much more regular basis.

 

Thoughts?

It doesn't really seem fair to me unless you charge human PCs 100 points for being immune to mental powers that affect machines.

 

If you feel you must charge some amount, I'd charge him something in the 20-point range. But charging 100 points? For that same number of points, he could buy 125 points of Mental DEF, Not vs. Machine Class Mental Powers (-1/4). That means, on average, he wouldn't be affected by any power that does less than 36d6. Do you have any mentallist villains in your campaign that have 36d6 attacks?

[TheEmerged]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

The problem is that while I like the idea that he will be a different class of mind than the other PC's (and that this will be obvious to any mentalists he meets)' date=' I don't like the idea that he will be immune to most mentalists without really having any corresponding negative drawback or having had to pay any points.[/quote']

 

Well, like most riddles you'll find you answered your own question: the fairest way to make him pay for it is to adjust the opposition he'll face.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Go round the problem:

 

You could always rule that his positronic brain is sufficiently human to fall under the 'human class' even though it is not organic, and just ask him to buy, say 50% mental damage resistance to reflect it's alien-ness.

 

You could even have it multi-classed - there's rules for that in the book, I think.

 

Mind you I agree: if you are using mind-classes, you shouldn't penalise someone for having a machine mind. Perfectly legitimate balancing tactics would include introducing some mech-empath character villain, or just saying that Electro, an existing villain whose powers include electrical EB, has added a slot to his multipower that allows him to control sentient machines through his control of electricity - he's just never used the power before as there were no sentient machines around!

 

Or you could have him hunted by Bill Gates..... (He get's caught when they load Windows XP2 into him by wireless LAN, and turns into a blithering idiot)

[tinman]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Hmmm. Good points.

 

One thing that I've been mulling over since I started the thread was the fact that it will be obvious to a mentalist that he is a different class of mind. This is going to mean that they will consider him particularly dangerous and may attempt to eliminate him through other means.

 

A couple of Watched or Hunted disadvantages would certainly be appropriate to reflect that most mentalists will consider him a threat.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

[tinman]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Or you could have him hunted by Bill Gates..... (He get's caught when they load Windows XP2 into him by wireless LAN' date=' and turns into a blithering idiot)[/quote']

 

Yoink! That one's going into the plot for sure

[sbarron]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

While not as common (unless you make it so), aren't there villians that can control machines in your game? These would be the equivalent of a mentalists for this character. Plus, I'd think Mechanon would have an eye on this guy, too.

 

I wouldn't charge the character extra for having a different class of mind. I'd just make sure that some baddies that could effect him show up from time to time.

[atlascott]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

I agree with the guys that say the 100 point tax is too steep. A little imagination is all it would take to balance this in-game, using the excellent suggestions already found in this thread--especially the ones about Mechanon--always pursuing perfection, he would almoist certainly want to take this PC apart and study its brain--esp if this PC does anything Mechanon doesn't or cant...

[zornwil]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Personally, I don't use the "Classes of Minds" thing per se. I think it's excellent as a guideline, and it helps to know that the rule-makers feel that Machines are on par with Humans. But I prefer to go with SFX and how the mental stuff works. If a mentalist "beams" a language-based message into people's heads, obviously that will limit what it can do. I would allow such a message to work on animals, but only to the extent they've learnt English (or whatever language) commands and been conditioned to them. I would allow a mentalist who works against humans by sending images and words to send images to an animal, but as GM I'm going to have the animal react in fashions I think, not something the mentalist can control as with humans. So basically it's all in respect to SFX. I do think that the idea of Alien minds would generally be a -1 Lim or similar in most campaigns, but of course just depends on usefulness/frequency. I can also easily imagine (and usually allow) human types of mind abilities to work with "similar" alien minds.

[tinman]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Yeah, I think I'll scrap the point charge and just concentrate on making sure it has some balancing negatives in play.

[Mortuorum`]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

That's the spirit!

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Actually, if I recall correctly, Mechanon is affected by human-class mental powers, because his mind is advanced enough to qualify as human. Chances are, a mechanical PC would fall under this category, too. He might have some Mental Defense, though. Just a thought.

[Mike W]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Personally, I don't think it fair to charge someone for being a "different class of mind". Sure, he's immune to conventional mentalists now, if his mind is entirely computerized. But he would be vulnerable to someone who can control computers. Should the human characters have to pay for being immune to computer controllers? I don't think any of us would charge them for it.

 

Plus, the android is theoretically vulnerable to Tech drains and to electromagnetics. In the end, it should all balance out.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

I'm with the majority opinion here. Assuming that you do treat this character as the Machine mind class, don't charge the character extra, just balance this in play. Although the optional modifiers that Hawksmoor brought up are good to keep in mind, especially against particularly powerful mentalists who can afford to take the penalties.

 

Are there any heroic/ friendly PC or NPC mentalists in your campaign? Don't overlook the drawbacks for this android character in relation to friendly mentalists: they won't be able to communicate with him via Telepathy or Mind Link, locate him with Mind Scan if he's lost, or use their powers to help him break out of a Mental Power attack used against him. All of this can be brought up during the course of a game.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Personally, I don't think it fair to charge someone for being a "different class of mind". Sure, he's immune to conventional mentalists now, if his mind is entirely computerized. But he would be vulnerable to someone who can control computers. Should the human characters have to pay for being immune to computer controllers? I don't think any of us would charge them for it.

 

Plus, the android is theoretically vulnerable to Tech drains and to electromagnetics. In the end, it should all balance out.

 

 

I think it something of a balance issue. Unless machine minds are common in the campaign setting and machine mind controlers are as common as human mind controlers, the charcter is getting some significant defenses for free. The only way I would allow this if (1) the character had a group hunted or recuring type of enemy that was machine based instead of human based. Perhaps the alien race he is scouting for has some long standing enemy that is trying to foil his mission on earth. (2)the GM went with the option that standard metalists can still affect him, with the standard penalties of -3ECV and -10 effects. That way he still gets some advantage for being a non-human, but is not flat immune to most mental powers. Otherwise, I think it is unbalancing.

 

As supporting example, suppose I want to play a charcter that is a mutant chimp. My character has normal human Int, can speak, use technology, etc, but I want to claim that he is an anmial and thus is in the animal mind class. If I get immunity to most mental powers based on my character origin, without paying any points for it, I am signigicantly more powerful than the next player who happens to be playing a mutant human. Now, in a campaign where there are lots of mutant animals and lots of people who use animal mind mental powers, this would probably balance out, but in the standard champions campaign I have a significant defense advantage for free.

[Mike W]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Well, maybe it's just me. But personally, I can't remember ever playing in a campaign without one or two villains who could affect computer minds. It's just too cool of a power. Besides, as an android he's also going to have to buy a lot of nasty disads like vulnerabilities and abnormal physiology. So some of the advantage is balanced out there. And if he ever gets captured, he could be subject to reprogramming, which is a lot easier to do on a computer than a human. In most campaigns(again in my experience) there are all kinds of "super tech" guys who could reprogram the android but only a handful of mentalists/psychological types that could "reprogram" a human to the same extent. And, as someone else pointed out, if the team has a mentalist that they use to communicate through(mind link and the like), the character would not be able to participate in that, which would be a definite disadvantage.

 

Plus, I just can't see penalizing someone for having a good concept.

[GamePhil]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Actually, in 5ER it specifically discusses this issue, and advises against players taking a Machine Class Mind. It's there mainly for actual computers and such, not for PC's, who should be affected as Human Class, because the level of complexity is equivalent to human minds.

 

In fact, I'd just have him take the Disadvantage, Affected As Both Human And Machine Classes Of Mind.

 

Also keep in mind that AI's have to make an EGO roll to take an action they haven't bought a program for. I can't see any reason that this shouldn't apply to Machine Class PC's.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Whilst I appreciate that androids have a wealth of potential disadvantages, they only have to buy as many as anyone else: there is nothing inherently more disadvantageous about being an android, in game terms.

 

Worth reading 5ER page 117 LH column near the bottom (I think that'll be what GamePhil was referring to).

 

Chosing the class of mind should give you no significant advantage: if there are no machine controllers, and you can't be bothered to introduce them, then the player can't have a machine mind, or not JUST a machine mind.

 

If the player wants a mind immune to mental powers then they have to buy mental defences, but they shouldn't be made to.

[Blue]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

In my campaign, I eliminated the "Alien" class of minds in order to avoid such an issue. There are humans, animals, and machines, however. Being able to control machines is pretty distinct and it limits you from harming directly your human foes.

 

Now this doesn't make him immune to attacks from humans or aliens, unless he bought and paid for the relevant "Automaton" power. Without that, he's still going to affected by powers like everyone else.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Something to keep in mind: cyberkinetics normally *can't* mindzap PCs. This PC, is vulnerable to them in way vastly more dangerous than to a typical PC.

[GamePhil]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

Something to keep in mind: cyberkinetics normally *can't* mindzap PCs. This PC' date=' is vulnerable to them in way vastly more dangerous than to a typical PC.[/quote']

 

Certainly true. However, in most settings that have them regular telepaths vastly outnumber the cyberkinetics. I would only allow a PC to take Machine Class Of Mind without buying it if they were about equally common or the cyberkinetics tended to be greatly more powerful.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

This may be opening up an even bigger can of worms, but given the way this discussion is trending I have to ask: If the logic is that PCs should not take Machine class of minds because in most campaigns, Mental Powers vs. Machine minds will be rarer, wouldn't that make the Machine Class for MPs less useful... and therefore, shouldn't Machine Class MPs cost less?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

I have a house rules for this kind of thing. I allow machne/alien/whatever kind of minds for PCs, but I recognize that such a mind, and not being considered human as well, can be an advantage. There are lost of cyberkinetics/beastmasters/etc in my campaign world, but they are far outnumbered by traditional mentalists. As such, I've created a Talent which basically simulates Limited Mental Defense that characters can take if they don't want to be human. You can see the specifics here: http://geocities.com/t_l_o_3_t/houserules.htm#skills

 

I also have a rule that states allows crossover between classes of minds: http://geocities.com/t_l_o_3_t/houserules.htm#powers

[GamePhil]

Re: Classes of Minds

 

This may be opening up an even bigger can of worms' date=' but given the way this discussion is trending I have to ask: If the logic is that PCs should not take Machine class of minds because in most campaigns, Mental Powers vs. Machine minds will be rarer, wouldn't that make the Machine Class for MPs less useful... and therefore, shouldn't Machine Class MPs cost less?[/quote']

 

Not necessarily. Just because the cyberkinetic is rare and therefore the Machine Mind as a player character is at a possible advantage does not mean the cyberkinetic will lack targets. Still lots of computers out there for him to affect.

 

The Alien Class of Mind affecting Mental Power I could see getting a Limitation in many games, though, along with Machine Class in a game without lots of appropriate machines.