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Two Game Master's


Brother Dom

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This is my first post so please bare with me. My friend and I are working on DC campaign, the meta plot and minor plots are worked out so far. What we need is advice on how two GM's running at the same time should do it. I'm not sure if one should run the main body and the other help out with combat or should we share the load.

Basically we want to here your thoughts and ideas.

 

Signed Baffled in Bummertown

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

Note, I have never ran any game with a "Co-GM."

 

That said, I agree with the CourtFool in that I am wondering why you are wanting to another GM? Is it just to help you with rules ideas, combat and such, or are you wanting him to actually run complete sessions to give you a break in running?

 

If it is just help during the session then you don't really need a co-gm just tell you players to help you with the rules and such. For new games I usually offer the players some kind of reward (xtra XP, cool item, in game money) if they can catch me messing up a rule. I learn the rules, they learn the rules it all works.

 

As for a Co-GM running games in the same world.

1) Work big plots and event together and agree who is going to run what.

2) Each gm pick out a couple of specific plots, villains, or PC hunted disads that they want to run adventures for. The other GM cannot run adventures dealing with these without the first GM's permission.

3) Get a list of things in the campaign that neither GM can change without the others permission. Places, important NPCs, campaign themes, etc.

4) Both GM's will have to talk about events that will change the world. IE if one GM's adventure is based upon a city getting destroyed then he should talk to the other GM before running it.

 

Good luck.

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

Part of the reason for 2 GM's it's a very large group of players. Second making them stay in a big group will work but it's not practical. Third we hope with two of us we can keep players from getting too bored. These players are famous for "splitting up to do more damage"

 

Myself personally was just asking if any one has done it and looking for tip's and advice.

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

This is my first post so please bare with me. My friend and I are working on DC campaign, the meta plot and minor plots are worked out so far. What we need is advice on how two GM's running at the same time should do it. I'm not sure if one should run the main body and the other help out with combat or should we share the load.

Basically we want to here your thoughts and ideas.

 

Signed Baffled in Bummertown

 

With the one truly successful co-GMed game I ever did one of us ran the plot and NPCs, the other ran the numbers - in other words, one was the storyteller and one was the referee. It worked very well, and the game had 12 players.

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

With the one truly successful co-GMed game I ever did one of us ran the plot and NPCs' date=' the other ran the numbers - in other words, one was the storyteller and one was the referee. It worked very well, and the game had 12 players.[/quote']

 

 

This would be the only reason I would run a dual GM game. Otherwise, if possible, I would divide the group into two and play on different days. This way the GM would be the central point and have the whole plot, notes, npc, etc...

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

One of the best games I was ever a part of had two of us "Co-GMing". But we didn't actually run at the same time. We both ran in the same campaign city and used the same city info and maps. There were 5 player besides us. We separated "control" of certain aspects between the two of us and each ran a different "Viper Nests" which were in competition with each other. Though the 5 players weren't aware of that at first. Both of us ran independent plot and adventure lines, but we coordinated common info. I think what made it work so well was we each had a PC and would play when the other was running. This allowed us to play and avoid GM burnout as well as being able to filter in "clues" if we had to. I don't think it would work in a conventional genre, but in a supers game not every PC has to be there every session. So a changing attendance isn't really a problem.

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

One of my roommates and I took a different tack;

 

We are co-reffing the same campaign world, but each Ref runs in a different city. He runs "New York", and I run "Los Angelos" (theyre called something else in the game, but thats not important here). Each of us plays in the other game, and its really helped to flesh out the world and add depth and detail.

 

However, early on we had a discussion about the overall "vision" of the game; what kind of flavor and feel we wanted, and what would be available, or not. (For example, we wanted a generally optomistic campaign, but with real consequences for intentionally unheroic acts. Mutants, extra-terrestrials, sorcerers, and cyborgs are all viable character ideas. Travellers thru time, PC or NPC, are not. Period).

 

To make all this work, one of us (me, as it turns out) had to be appointed "Ref Prime". If theres a judgement call to be made on the spot about some aspect of the game world that affects more than just New York, I have to make it. For example, whether or not it was illegal in the USA to intentionally try to alter your DNA to make yourself superhuman came up in conversation, and I had to make a call. (Its illegal).

 

So far, this has worked out very well. The game is largely based on a campaign setting I ran a few years before, just with a different "cast" and a slight change in histories. So I created alot of the NPC's and organizations. Had we designed the world completely from scratch, it mgiht have been harder to pick a "Prime Ref". But it should be done, since you -need- to have a clear decision maker sometimes.

 

I dont know if this will help you, but from reding what youve said, Id have to agree with the suggestion that you split the group into different game days. Or you take turns with who is running the story and who is crunching numbers. Unless one of you is -far- better than the other at storytelling, and the other is a far better mathemetician, I think that sticking you with a permanent role as one or the other will -soon- lead to Ref Burnout.

 

Oh...and Reffing a superheroes game for 12 Players at once is like...suicide, in my opinion. Thats having to write up a -minimum- of about 6-10 individual supervillians. Every week.

 

Yeesh!

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

Unless one of you is -far- better than the other at storytelling, and the other is a far better mathemetician, I think that sticking you with a permanent role as one or the other will -soon- lead to Ref Burnout.

 

YUP, I definitly agree with that one. But you should also make sure you get play time as a PC.

 

Oh...and Reffing a superheroes game for 12 Players at once is like...suicide, in my opinion. Thats having to write up a -minimum- of about 6-10 individual supervillians. Every week.

 

Yeesh!

 

That is why I love the supers genre. I allways had major villians that returned in addition to the weekly canon fodder.

 

"Gasp! But it can't be. He DIED!" :eg:

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

Oh...and Reffing a superheroes game for 12 Players at once is like...suicide, in my opinion. Thats having to write up a -minimum- of about 6-10 individual supervillians. Every week.

 

Yeesh!

 

I wouldn't recommend it every week - but we only did it for the occassionaly "special" Champions game weekend. (We concentrated on a small number of really tough villains - or LOTS of agents).

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  • 3 weeks later...

Re: Two Game Master's

 

The last 2 RPG I play (well, I’m still playing the second) use tow different versions of Dual-GMs. Note, they both are Star Wars RPG campaigns, I just discover Hero System RPG this month.

 

1) Dark Side and Light Side campaign: One GM ran the Light Side campaign Friday while the other ran it Saturday. Outside the regular campaign planning the have to meet to discuss what each gamer did, since both games where played in the same city and the same history. Both teams meet in the last day of the game.

 

I played on the Light Side, and we find out that when we where working on sabotage communications we helped the dark siders. One of us caused a distraction while the other 2 sabotage the communications. I turn out our distraction helped them to escape from jail. And that was just one of the time something like this happens.

 

Having a “good guys†team and a “bad guys†what really fun. :rofl:

 

2) To divide us in 2 groups: In our current campaign we are about 10 people playing. Having a second GM allow dividing us into 2 groups when needed. For example, in our last game, one GM controlled the team to destroy a space base with some military space ships (one of them a Super Star Destroyer), while the other controlled the team that caused a distraction with our space ships. The second GM just comes as needed or when there was more than one NPC in a scene.

 

Of course we find at the end that we where the distracted, when the bad guy show up on a monitor while we where surrounded with other monitors that show wars in several planets. :eek:

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

Our group does the two-GM thing quite often in a number of campaigns. In fact, in one campaign it's even weirder than that: two GMs do "tag team", each yanking the plot in not exactly the same direction, and when one is GMing the other is playing their own character! We started doing it when the group got larger than one GM could conveniently handle. Also, the group practices this often as we do a regular team-GM event at a local con each summer.

 

In my opinion, two GMs can work extremely well. The only really adverse case in our group's experience is the one time I was one of the co-GMs, and a main plot architect :thumbdown ... from which I've carried away the lesson that on a scale from one to sucks, as a GM, I'm closer to the sucks end than I'd prefer to be. (I have lots of interesting ideas, but that doesn't have to translate into what others find to be an interesting, playable campaign, as I found out.)

 

The biggest single criterion for success, I think, is that the two GMs have to be in sync in terms of what the plot and the campaign atmosphere are supposed to be, and you both have to understand and agree on what your players enjoy in your game. If you don't have those things well worked out between you, then you will confuse your players and send them unintentionally mixed signals. That is a rather worse thing to do than you may imagine... it can get everyone confused and even hostile.

 

On the other hand, two GMs are great when you are trying for convergent action lines with a split party. Run the two groups simultaneously, keep the pace fast and furious, and all they hear from the other group will be chaotic, interesting snippets, and when the subgroups reunite they will have interesting experiences to tell each other.

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

I'm not a big fan of co-gms but I do agree with making sure the main plot lines are well known by both and all changes/updates are planned by both. But, the only co-gm game I have been a part of that was any fun had seperate adventures/plots that only that GM knew about making it fun for the other GM as well. There should be a share of both instances where the non-active co-gm is clued in and can 'guide' the group or be the straight man to the active Gm, but also have times where the non-active co-gm is as clueless as the other players. It will help turn the non-active GMs gametime into something more than a phone-in effort while he is really thinking about what he's going to do next session.

 

Anyway that's how I see it could be fun...

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

My first Hero game was co-GMed by a husband and wife team. She came up with plot hooks and villains, and he ran the actual games. She played about half of the NPCs, and he played the other half.

 

Would've worked, too, if they hadn't been intent on playing Iron Age in what they told us was Four-Color.

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

I was thinking even with a smaller group having a co-GM can work. If they take turns running the game, maybe the one who isn't running can help by playing an appropriate musical selection (assuming music is played only during select scenes) and help out with the visual aids such as pictures/photos, props, and slide shows.

 

Of course, if none of these are used in a game, having co-GMs isn't necessary for small games. But if these things are used, having someone be in charge of these things while the other person is running the game allows the session to run more smoothly.

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

I've done several methods of co-GMing over the years. As Cancer mentioned above, our group ran our Feng Shui campaign trading between two GMs. We deliberately did not consult with each other on plot or character or anything, and it soon got so that we would set up cliffhangers for each other to resolve. When one wasn't GMing, the other was playing.

 

The Champions game I'm running now is co-GMed with two of us running at the same time. Basically, I'm the rules expert (though the other's no slouch) and he's the genre expert: he's got a hugongous comix collection. He and I have met a couple times ftf and email to plan the campaign and each adventure, so we know what's going on.

 

The first real co-GMing I did was Shadowrun, which screams for multiple GMs, what with combat, magic and hacking all happening at once, and in first edition, each had its own practically independent set of rules. With each revision, they've streamlined things. We ran almost entirely published adventures, though we had to go over them carefully - most of them were pretty good as far as they wet, but we always found holes or gaps where either the logic didn't quite follow, or we knew our players wouldn't dance to the author's tune. When running, we'd divvy up NPCs, I specialized in magic and the little hacking we actually ran, and he usually focused more on overall plot and action.

 

By the way, each of these examples is a teamup of me and a different co-GM.

 

Our gaming group also runs a big tournament at our local annual convention; it's been Feng Shui for a few years, last year was Savage Worlds, this year we're actually using Hero (yay!). The planning we do (we just take one or two of our regular sessions out for this) is as fun as running or playing: each of us come with various ideas (with some softening up by group email), and over the course of an evening, we've gone places none of us could have got to alone.

 

So I'm a big fan of co-GMing, at least with two people (I've never been in a situation with three or more GMs at the same table). Just the ability to have one guy actually GM while the other plays NPCs, either for interaction or tactics, is a huge relief. Bad guys are *so* much more effective when someone can focus more on what they are doing instead of being a passing thought in the midst of the rush of combat. NPCs are more expressive and varies, not only because two different people are playing different NPCs, but because again the one playing the NPC doesn't have to respond to all the player questions, rules interpretation, etc. And it's a good way to get out of the ruts ou don't even know you're in, both in actual play time and in planning. The other GM can always think of things you overlook and make suggestions to add twists or consistency to what you come up with. It also makes it a lot easier if/when the party gets split.

 

Now, of course there are caveats. I have the advantage of having gamed with these folks (the ones I've co-GMed with and most of the players) for years - the above examples are with people I've been gaming with pretty regularly for 20+ years! (With gaps of a few years for out-of-town jobs, as well as several of those years being just an annual session or two at the local con.) So we already had a good idea of how we operate. We're also all experienced GMs on our own, going back to before 1980 (my Shadowrun partner's first RPG was Empire of the Petal Throne!)

 

So you need to have a handle on the skill of the co-GM, and plan accordingly. I've found that preplanning sessions, preferably ftf, are essential. You can compare plot ideas, NPCs and their plans, and rules tweaks. Even with published adventures, you want to take time to go over it with each other so you have similar interpretations of the material and how it fits your campaign. (Never mind the example of the Feng Shui tradeoff campaign I mentioned above...actually, that leads me to...)

 

You have to trust each other as co-GMs. That means that you assume s/he knows what s/he's doing, so you can in fact let them take over certain things during play. Of course, since you've discussed things ahead of time, you have a good idea what's likely to happen anyway. It means that if they make a rules call or NPC action that doesn't quite fit what you would do, you give the benefit of the doubt and keep your GM-control-freak instincts in check (you know we all have 'em!). Make sure it's a major issue before you stop play and hash it out right then. It means also that you give them free reign to be creative, and that you can expect their support and flexibility for your creativity.

 

And, though it's never happened to me (thank goodness), don't let the players play one of you off the other, either to gain cheats or cause dissension. If they're good players they won't try.

 

Feh. This is going on too long. I just wanted to share my experience and some advice, given that I've done this a lot. It's worked well for me, but I relaize my situation is unusual. Thing is, there's several ways to co-GM, and it takes some conscious effort to pull off, but it can add a lot to the game for both GMs and players.

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Guest bblackmoor

Re: Two Game Master's

 

What we need is advice on how two GM's running at the same time should do it.

 

Every game group I have ever been in, on two coasts, in three states, and across three decades, has had multiple GMs who cooperate running games set in the same universe(s). What I suggest is that each GM have "their" villains and plotlines, and that when one GM thinks "their" villain or plotline might interfere (or simply interact) with those of another GM's, just brief the other GM on the specific parts you think might intersect.

 

Personally, I have never seen this cause a problem. Sometimes one GM will use another GM's villain, or maybe two GM's plotlines will have some kind of connection. As long as everyone communicates and has respect for each other's areas of interest, it shouldn't be a big deal. It should enhance the game, actually.

 

That's been my experience, anyway.

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Guest bblackmoor

Re: Two Game Master's

 

Part of the reason for 2 GM's it's a very large group of players. Second making them stay in a big group will work but it's not practical. Third we hope with two of us we can keep players from getting too bored.

 

Oh: you mean two at the same time? During one game session? The only time I have ever done that is at conventions, when we had three times as many players as we should have had. In that case, one GM would be the "real" GM, and the other GM would basically just run a dozen or so NPCs, answer rule questions, and moderate isolated disputes where the resolution didn't require the main GM's input.

 

It's not something I recommend for a normal game among friends.

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

I've played in a campaign with "round-robin" GMing. One person would GM a plot arc, and then give over to the next person with a plot arc. Some of us GMed more often than others, and we had a set process for donwtime GM's to butt in for a couple of minutes here and there to "foreshadow" their upcoming plot.

 

I think that requires a fairly tolerant group, though. If you have either PCs or GMs who see the PC-to-GM relationship as adversarial, I'd expect it to fall apart rather quickly.

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Guest bblackmoor

Re: Two Game Master's

 

If you have either PCs or GMs who see the PC-to-GM relationship as adversarial' date=' I'd expect it to fall apart rather quickly.[/quote']

 

That kind of goes without saying, doesn't it? Any game group is only as good as the people in it.

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

That kind of goes without saying' date=' doesn't it? Any game group is only as good as the people in it.[/quote']

 

Maybe I didn't express that well. In a round-robin system like we had, there are some extra pitfalls because the power dynamics are different. Most games can survive one or two problem players, if there's a strong GM who can counterbalance. On the other hand, if the problem players have an opportunity to hijack plot every few story arcs, it's harder to keep the group dynamic stable.

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Guest bblackmoor

Re: Two Game Master's

 

On the other hand' date=' if the problem players have an opportunity to hijack plot every few story arcs, it's harder to keep the group dynamic stable.[/quote']

 

The solution for that is simple: do not invite problem players back. Life is too short to game with nitwits.

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Re: Two Game Master's

 

Ive run with multiple GM's, and also troupe style where everyone can switch off between PC and Arbitrator as appropriate.

 

It works, but IME one of the GM's must be first among equals, the primary, or otherwise have ultimate authority over the others to make it work. Otherwise disputes occur and cannot be resolved easily.

 

For an online example of multiple GMs in action, check out my Millennial Men campaign here:

 

http://www.herocentral.net/characters.htm?campaignId=301376

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