Thinking Differently About SPD

[Theron]

I seem to be putting together a new campaign, and also prepping a one-shot for a gaming gathering that will use the same background. When I was discussing it with The Missus, she made one request:

 

"No speedsters."

 

See, in our last campaign, an unlimited points Silver Age JLA-level game, speed creep was rampant, and one player had a speedster who was positively obscene. It wasn't uncommon for our team to outclass a master villain in the speed department by a factor of four or five to one (in terms of overall actions per turn).

 

My initial reaction was, "Yes, dear," but then I thought about it and said, "You know, I'll bet I could make a really cool Speedster who was only a SPD 5. He'd just have a lot less screen time."

 

And that's when it hit me: SPD can be used as a reflection of spotlight time. Put in this context, a SPD 6 villainous brick doesn't seem so incongruous, as his extra actions translate directly to panels in the comic where he's threatening our heroes.

 

Some of y'all are probably looking at me like I've grown a second head. Others are probably going, "Well, duh!", but I thought it an interesting way to look at a potential game-breaker in a different light.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

That's an interesting take. I never put it in those terms, but it makes a lot of sense to me. It would go to explain why the Flash in the team books has so little potential compared to solo books as well. Of course, this could create a bigger problem as characters start buying "Spotlight Time."

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I ruled in the Damocles Directive game in the GGU, and in my small F2F game, that I did not want to have any PCs with greater than a 6 Speed. I had a 9 speed PC briefly and felt that was too fast, especially for the constraints of a PBEM.

 

Further I believe that SPEED score does not make the speedster. Lightning Reflexes or DEX, Defense Manuver 1-4, Speed Tricks MP, and of course a high movement rate those are the defining features of a speedster. Using this philosophy a great speedster could be developed on any speed score you assigned. I have one based on a streamlined SPEED F2F game with a 4 Speed (but then all Supers have a 4 speed in that game).

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Couple random thoughts:

 

*Create an "END Cap" at character creation - if the character went all-out without pushing each phase - half move, defenses up, attack - how much END would they spend each turn? Can't be over X # (which could be set at whatever DC limit you want for the game + Y% times the average desired Speed).

 

For example - you want a game of 60AP and Speeds around 5. You don't mind people having force fields, etc. so you think they may need around 5 more END/phase for defenses, moves, etc. and set the END Cap at 11x5=55 END/Turn. If someone wants to use more END in a phase, they'll need to reduce their Speed. If someone wants to have a high Speed, they'll have to be less powerful, or spend more points on reduced END. (Yes, charges throw this out of whack, but you could just count a charge as using normal END for this purpose if they have a large # of commonly used charges)

 

*Create movement caps. "So, your Batman with a 12" run and a 10 Speed runs *how* fast?" Base movement distances off of the baseline 2 Speed - ie take your movement, double it, and that's how far you can move in any given turn, regardless of number of actions, and you can only move half your total move in any given phase. Restrict movement distances to "realistic" levels for non-speedsters. You may have a lot of actions, but the speedster can still run circles around you.

[Troll]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

 

Further I believe that SPEED score does not make the speedster. Lightning Reflexes or DEX, Defense Manuver 1-4, Speed Tricks MP, and of course a high movement rate those are the defining features of a speedster. Using this philosophy a great speedster could be developed on any speed score you assigned. I have one based on a streamlined SPEED F2F game with a 4 Speed (but then all Supers have a 4 speed in that game).

 

Very interesting. I have been troubled by speed infaltion in some of my games and discourage character with more that 5 SPD. Did your players have a problem with a 4 speed limit? I like the idea that other powers/skills/talents and movement are what make a speedster, not the SPD characteristic. I will experiment with this in my games.

[Hermit]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I had a 9 speed PC briefly and felt that was too fast' date=' especially for the constraints of a PBEM. [/quote']

 

Good point about PBEMs or other non face to facers. I post sluggishly enough that I try, as a rule, not to play high speed types.

[Fox1]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I've ran with this mindset in place since the first day. It works wonderfully.

 

Spotlight time however isn't just a measure of SPD however. There is also the quality of that spotlight time. This indicates that there should be a power (mostly damage side) vs. SPD trade off.

 

But in any case, I vote for lower SPD values in general. CU and most other campaigns I've seen are simply set too high for basically no reason.

[MitchellS]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I've always followed the George McDonald rule that each panel of a comic book was 1 phase of action. I've never seen speed as an aspect of agility. To me it's an aspect of actions and attacks and skill. So for me an high speed brick or mentalist is not an impossibility. They're just very combat savy and get a lot of panel time.

 

I had a martial arts friend who couldn't walk a straight line on the ground without losing his balance [we used to joke he'd never pass a sobriety test] but I watched him beat they hell out of 4 guys in a bar one night back in '86. He had body-memorized literally hundreds of different maneuvers to the point where he could get many more effective attacks than an untrained people.

[Rapier]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Its inevitable, almost, to run into SPD creep. After you have tweaked your character with a couple hundred XP what else is left?

 

I've really come on board to the "no limits" campaigns. You want a 12 SPD go ahead. Points are fixed so you will be dumping a LOT of points into SPD. Villains will dump their points into Desol and Lightning Reflexes.

 

I do the same thing with DEF creep. Suddenly there's a character with 35 DEF? x2 AP, Penetrating, Constant, DEF Drains, etc. Defend THAT, sucka!

 

And its all in character. Think about it. The best gun fighter in town...what happens? Every spud and putz who wants to make a name for themself is gunning for this dude on the off chance they can beat him (get REALLY lucky) and have instantly made it into the big time. Someone with a 40 DEF is nigh (sp?) indestructable. The dudes with the super-huge planet busting armpit ray will be TOTALLY on his butt...ALL THE TIME. You watch how fast the character will radiation-accident a more normal DEF.

 

All of this stands true for any super high CHAR.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I generally define SPD as Reflexes; hence, why a high SPD character has so many actions he can use to abort to defensive actions; his reflexes are just that ridiculously amped.

 

Personally, I cap SPD at 7 as a hardcap for PCs (and usually NPCs as well), though they rarely go above 6.

[MisterBaldy]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I seem to be putting together a new campaign, and also prepping a one-shot for a gaming gathering that will use the same background. When I was discussing it with The Missus, she made one request:

 

"No speedsters."

 

See, in our last campaign, an unlimited points Silver Age JLA-level game, speed creep was rampant, and one player had a speedster who was positively obscene. It wasn't uncommon for our team to outclass a master villain in the speed department by a factor of four or five to one (in terms of overall actions per turn).

 

My initial reaction was, "Yes, dear," but then I thought about it and said, "You know, I'll bet I could make a really cool Speedster who was only a SPD 5. He'd just have a lot less screen time."

 

And that's when it hit me: SPD can be used as a reflection of spotlight time. Put in this context, a SPD 6 villainous brick doesn't seem so incongruous, as his extra actions translate directly to panels in the comic where he's threatening our heroes.

 

Some of y'all are probably looking at me like I've grown a second head. Others are probably going, "Well, duh!", but I thought it an interesting way to look at a potential game-breaker in a different light.

Well Theron, the major ability of the "Speedster" is mobility, and speed of movement...and not the game mechanic/attribute of SPEED, per se.

 

This is not to say that one could not have a "Speedster" with a SPEED 12, but why would you want to. This would suck up a tremendous amount of Character Points, and would more than likely upset the balance of most games.

 

As far as "SPEED as it relates to comic panels"...it's not really an original concept, it actually comes from a game called GOLDEN HEROES, which was released by Games Workshop in 1984. I used to own the game...and I thought it was a pretty interesting concept then...and your thoughts on the matter only reitterate the validity of that concept.

[Theron]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Well Theron' date=' the major ability of the "Speedster" is [i']mobility[/i], and speed of movement...and not the game mechanic/attribute of SPEED, per se.

 

Believe me, I'm aware of that. But it's not uncommon in my experience for the group speedster to also have the highest SPD in the group. Oftentimes, this is because a high SPD allows a fairly easy way to manage some speedster tricks without resorting to complicated power buys, as well as the previously-mentioned aborts to defensive actions. I'm now hell-bent on building a SPD 4 speedster, just for kicks.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Believe me' date=' I'm aware of that. But it's not uncommon in my experience for the group speedster to also have the highest SPD in the group. Oftentimes, this is because a high SPD allows a fairly easy way to manage some speedster tricks without resorting to complicated power buys, as well as the previously-mentioned aborts to defensive actions. I'm now hell-bent on building a SPD 4 speedster, just for kicks.[/quote']

 

Hopefully, you're out there, Steve...

 

A section on the relationship between Speedsters and the Speed stat would be a good inclusion in the Ultimate Speedster

 

Probably titled "Does Speed make the Speedster?"

[Theron]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Hopefully, you're out there, Steve...

 

A section on the relationship between Speedsters and the Speed stat would be a good inclusion in the Ultimate Speedster

 

Steve is omnipresent. He has a SPD of 36.

[Evil102]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I've sometimes used high SPD as a reflection of a character's ability to mulitask.

 

The Minuteman Mark VI robot, for example, moves smoothly but not particularly fast. Due to it's battlecomputer, however, it can fire a plasma blast at Hero A with its right hand, spray riot foam at Hero B with its left hand, and analyse any potential threat from Hero C.

 

Regular villains, by comparison, would only be able to concentrate on one hero at a time and would get less actions.

[JTesla]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I've sometimes used high SPD as a reflection of a character's ability to mulitask.

 

The Minuteman Mark VI robot, for example, moves smoothly but not particularly fast. Due to it's battlecomputer, however, it can fire a plasma blast at Hero A with its right hand, spray riot foam at Hero B with its left hand, and analyse any potential threat from Hero C.

 

Regular villains, by comparison, would only be able to concentrate on one hero at a time and would get less actions.

 

Interesting approach, do you place any limit on how particular weapons can be used? For instance: I want a robot with a weapon on each arm, it can fire Weapon A only three times at up to three targets and Weapon B only three times at up to three targets, for a total of six attacks, how would that be modeled? Would speed bought just for this effect work?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I ruled in the Damocles Directive game in the GGU, and in my small F2F game, that I did not want to have any PCs with greater than a 6 Speed. I had a 9 speed PC briefly and felt that was too fast, especially for the constraints of a PBEM.

 

Further I believe that SPEED score does not make the speedster. Lightning Reflexes or DEX, Defense Manuver 1-4, Speed Tricks MP, and of course a high movement rate those are the defining features of a speedster. Using this philosophy a great speedster could be developed on any speed score you assigned. I have one based on a streamlined SPEED F2F game with a 4 Speed (but then all Supers have a 4 speed in that game).

 

All excellent points. For that matter, many of the standard rules can simulate speedsters performing multiple actions at super-speed, especially under 5E: buy CSL or PSL with Sweep or Move By, or build the character's Powers to take advantage of Multiple-Power Attacks.

[Evil102]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Interesting approach' date=' do you place any limit on how particular weapons can be used? For instance: I want a robot with a weapon on each arm, it can fire Weapon A only three times at up to three targets and Weapon B only three times at up to three targets, for a total of six attacks, how would that be modeled? Would speed bought just for this effect work?[/quote']

 

In the Minuteman example, I decided that the main attack (a plasma beam) was launched from the right hand, while the left hand had a modular weapons system. So the play went something like:

 

"Phase Two: Doctor Earth, the robot unleashes a torrent at plasma from it's hand at you. Looks nasty. Do you want to dodge? Sirocco, while it's doing this the head is tracking you and it's raising it's left arm in your direction"

 

"Phase Four: Sirocco, the Minuteman speaks. 'Neutralising gamma-level threat'. The band on the wrist revolves, and thick, white foam erupts out of a nozzle. What are you doing?"

 

"Phase Six: Grey, it's looking in your direction. You've a nasty feeling that wall isn't providing you with the cover you'd hoped for. A synthesised voice grates out 'Primary target located. Re-establishing target lock'."

 

All the weapons (with the exception of the riot foam) used END taken from the Minuteman's batteries. For your purposes, I think the easiest way would be to have a multipower, with weapons A and B as ultra-slots. Have them running off three charges apiece rather than END. Probably not the cheapest way of doing it, but easy to keep track.

 

Actually, the six has reminded me: if you want to see one of the best examples of a robot having multiple actions due to being able to keep track of several targets simultaneously, check out Black Magic 66. As anime goes, it's an oldie but still a goodie. The sequence where M-66 attacks the soldiers on the road is very tasty.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Steve is omnipresent. He has a SPD of 36.

 

Let's give him SPD 12, and Duplication (only one body) to enable multitasking. Sure it's illegal, but if Steve can't get GM permission, who can?

[zornwil]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Its inevitable, almost, to run into SPD creep. After you have tweaked your character with a couple hundred XP what else is left?

 

I've really come on board to the "no limits" campaigns. You want a 12 SPD go ahead. Points are fixed so you will be dumping a LOT of points into SPD. Villains will dump their points into Desol and Lightning Reflexes.

 

I do the same thing with DEF creep. Suddenly there's a character with 35 DEF? x2 AP, Penetrating, Constant, DEF Drains, etc. Defend THAT, sucka!

 

And its all in character. Think about it. The best gun fighter in town...what happens? Every spud and putz who wants to make a name for themself is gunning for this dude on the off chance they can beat him (get REALLY lucky) and have instantly made it into the big time. Someone with a 40 DEF is nigh (sp?) indestructable. The dudes with the super-huge planet busting armpit ray will be TOTALLY on his butt...ALL THE TIME. You watch how fast the character will radiation-accident a more normal DEF.

 

All of this stands true for any super high CHAR.

To me, SPD creep over time is fine, it represents the more finely-tuned combat reflexes/thinking, plus it plays well to one of the edges veteran heroes should have.

[John T]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

To me' date=' SPD creep over time is fine, it represents the more finely-tuned combat reflexes/thinking, plus it plays well to one of the edges veteran heroes should have.[/quote']Not to mention the statement that "Villains get experience, too!"

 

John T

[RDU Neil]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I seem to be putting together a new campaign, and also prepping a one-shot for a gaming gathering that will use the same background. When I was discussing it with The Missus, she made one request:

 

"No speedsters."

 

See, in our last campaign, an unlimited points Silver Age JLA-level game, speed creep was rampant, and one player had a speedster who was positively obscene. It wasn't uncommon for our team to outclass a master villain in the speed department by a factor of four or five to one (in terms of overall actions per turn).

 

My initial reaction was, "Yes, dear," but then I thought about it and said, "You know, I'll bet I could make a really cool Speedster who was only a SPD 5. He'd just have a lot less screen time."

 

And that's when it hit me: SPD can be used as a reflection of spotlight time. Put in this context, a SPD 6 villainous brick doesn't seem so incongruous, as his extra actions translate directly to panels in the comic where he's threatening our heroes.

 

Some of y'all are probably looking at me like I've grown a second head. Others are probably going, "Well, duh!", but I thought it an interesting way to look at a potential game-breaker in a different light.

 

I think this is a brilliant idea... a truly "out of the box" interpretation, and I'd love to see work on it. Yes... it might really break some of the elemental Hero mechanics... but as a method to take Hero in a more Nar direction, I think it's wonderful.

 

Great stuff. Repped!

 

Edit: Just to add, I don't think this concept applies just to Speedsters. It would be equally constant for every character.

[Kirby]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

On a different train of thought, why not create a 12 SPD villain? I don't recall ever seeing one in any HERO books, the closest was Lung Hung who was 10 SPD, I believe.

 

I created a 12 SPD villain 'lackey' called Speed Demon. His use was the "master villain's" main lieutentant/pet. His initial purpose was to draw blood from each of the PC so the master villain could make clones of them.

[zornwil]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

How about a SPD 24 villain? I've done that. Very light-weight but you try getting hit every phase and the guy's well out of range before you can react!

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Very interesting. I have been troubled by speed infaltion in some of my games and discourage character with more that 5 SPD. Did your players have a problem with a 4 speed limit? I like the idea that other powers/skills/talents and movement are what make a speedster' date=' not the SPD characteristic. I will experiment with this in my games.[/quote']

 

Sorry I missed this thread.

 

The actual mechanics boiled down to making the characters almost speedless, if you understand. They could still have the option of gaming the speedchart by delaying actions ectera, or delivering Haymakers, but without the spotlight pressures and added expense of the added Speed score.

 

Hawksmoor