VPP Nightmare!

[starblaze]

Hey,

I have a problem with one of my players. She is usually pretty good at RPGing but lately she has become a major headache in my Champions game. But first some background:

 

The campaign started when the four original players gained their superpowers when an ancient stone tablet containing a formula to unlock the secrets of superhumans was destroyed and unleashed mystic energy. Fine, one character became a mentalist, one a weaponmaster/acher, another a wind energy projector and lastly a gadgeteer.

 

Now I don't have a problem with the first three but last one has been a real problem. She refuses to be consistant on any of her gadgets. She created a follower that is essentially a robot spider but when another robot attacked it with an EMP attack she told me that is was a 'mystical spider' and that that wouldn't work on it.

 

Later, I sent the team back to the ice age ( I am running the Menace out of Time adventure), and she decides that her character who had never had the power before tells me that she is now going to use her VPP to give herself LS:Immortality, and no need to eat. So she is going to go to sleep for millions of years and then kill the mad scientist character that sent us back in time in his crib.

 

She absolutely refuses to explain in anything but the most vaguest of terms about how she actually does any of this stuff. Her response is to simply say "I have a Variable Power Pool". I don't want to get into an arguement with her because I don't want to use up game time and ruin it for the other players but I am getting sooooo tired of this! :mad:

 

I am seriously thinking that I should just stop running the game until her attitude changes, and let the other players put some pressure on her. I don't want to kick her out of that game because she is very good friend and for the most part a good player. She just get out of control when you give her this kind of character.

 

Oh, and just to help out here is her HD file.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

VPP doesn't mean squat without SFX.

 

Personally, if she's a gadgeteer force her to work within the parameters of Gadgets and help her define what kinds of gadgets and pseudo-science work within the campaign.

 

I'm at work so can't see the Character Sheet until I get home later tonight.. I might have more suggestions later.

[Kirby]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

As for the robot/mystical spider, remind her that the android was what you were originally told and it's going to stay that way. For the gadgeteer pool, I fail to see how she could create Life Support in the Ice Age.

 

If she still argues it, I'd say she has two choices that you can think of: 1) Change the VPP to a MP; 2) Create a new character. Don't tell her the 3) Get the heck out type options.

 

Could you tell us the advantages & limitations on the VPP. I don't have HD on this laptop, but that might help some of us help you.

[Kirby]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

PS: Remind her that you're the GM, so she can't tell you what can and cannot work in the game.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

I can't see the sheet here but I'd make this simple.

 

It is a gadgeteer system. She needs to provide write-ups of the gadgets she creates. If it isn't electricity she needs to specify the energy source. Oh, and for future reference, just because she gives herself LS: Immortality and LS: Doesn't Eat doesn't mean you can't mess with that notion. She finds herself, upon awaking frozen under the glacier or aboard an alien ship or some sort of Time Travel Enforcer is preventing her now from causing a paradox.

[OddHat]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

Kill her, and eat her heart. If you eat her heart, you will gain her power.

[Kirby]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

She needs to provide write-ups of the gadgets she creates.

I can't believe I forgot about this: always, Always, ALWAYS, make PCs write up their VPPs before the game is played. The PC should *not* be allowed to create powers during gameplay, even if the player is a HERO math wizard. If in-between adventures they think of something, then you can allow or disallow it. ONLY if they have a +2 Cosmic pool should you allow them to create powers in-between game sessions; otherwise, they have to wait. The gadget pool should have its limitations come into effect during this time.

 

 

...just because she gives herself LS: Immortality and LS: Doesn't Eat doesn't mean you can't mess with that notion.

Heck, I say, let her bury herself and then she's out of the adventure (and no XP to boot). Now, after she's in hibernation, ask her what gadget did she create to wake her up at the appropriate time? If none, then too bad. When the PCs get back to the future, they will have lots of trouble finding her. And even if she had thought to put a GPS on her (which wouldn't work for 10,000 years and probably run out of juice; it's a -0 limitation) there's been a building built above her. Or perhaps she was buried in Nevada and her body is above a cave where they tested nukes. Or maybe some vampire detected her life force 10 years before 'present day,' dug her up and drank her blood and ate her heart out. Now he has her power.

 

Sorry, I have no patience for power-gaming munchkins.

[Chuckg]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

Inform her of the Special Effect rules on page 96 of Fred (revised), and their specific application to VPPs as per the statement on page 322.

 

Specifically, this statement:

 

A character with a Variable Power Pool (“VPP”) establishes a pool of Character Points that he can use to create any power, or any power within a defined group of powers (typically, a set of powers limited to a particular special effect). Think of a VPP as a Multipower that has all of the powers of a certain type or special effect. The character distributes the points in the Pool among whatever powers he wants to have at a given time.

 

Typically, the powers created with a Variable Power Pool are linked by common special effects, such as “gadgets,” “magic,” “fire/flame,” or “mentalism.” This allows a character to create a wide variety of powers and effects without having to try to think of every possible application of his powers in advance and buy them separately."

[Mister E]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

It seems to me, that the two of you are having a hard time co-conceptualizing exactly what the deal is with this player's Gadgeteer Character.

 

• So are the gadgets arcane-tech, or just tech? And if they are arcane-tech, what does that mean? How is this SFX defined?
   
  
• Can she build anything she wants, or is there some kind of Inventing Skill process (and GM approval) that has to happen? Can she give herself levels of Growth? Extra-Dimensional Movement? Desolid Invulnerabilities to specific SFX?
   
  
• Have you guys actually come up with "Tech Levels" for the campaign? And if so, at what Tech Level do her gadgets fall under? What are the limits of this Tech-Level?
  

 

The most important thing, is this character needs to know that VPP's don't turn Players into GM's, or Characters into gods. Building Life Supports with a VPP is not a bad thing, especially if they help the whole party out. Wanting to crack the campaign's verisimilitude and seriousness by exploiting the weaknesses in the system, is straight up not cool, but it happens.

 

Don't let it beat you down. Take the Player aside, either before or after the game, and let them know you have an issue with the way their Character is in the Campaign. Sometimes the biggest problem is that the Player is having a hard time dealing with the Power Level of the game, and can't control the actions of their Character for whatever reason. It's not really the Player's fault. It's more of an RP comfort-zone issue.

[starblaze]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

Kill her' date=' and eat her heart. If you eat her heart, you will gain her power.[/quote']

 

LOL:rofl: :rofl:

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

NO HDC here either - maybe you can post the VPP?

 

Conceptually, suspended animation to get the characters back to their correct time seems a reasonable approach. Practically, what can you build your gadgets from in the Ice Age? I'm going from the "gadgeteer" description here, by the way.

 

Towards getting the player's attention, perhaps struct enforcement of the VPP rules would be in order. No "special powers" go in a VPP, so how does a spider robot follower get in there? I commonly waive these resrictions to be consistent with SFX of the VPP - but if your VPP has no SFX, what's to waive?

 

I generally like to see a list of the types of things a VPP can and cannot do before approving it (or playing it). I'm not hung up on having every power vetted and approved beforehand, but I do believe the GM has carte blanche to rule out any power not consistent with the prior writeups, most commonly with "you can't figure out how to do that - maybe with more time to work it out..." This effectively outlaws creative new VPP powers busting an adventure, but enables them to get over unforeseen problems frustrating the adventure.

[starblaze]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

Here is the character in text.

 

Diesel

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

21 STR 11 13- Lift 459.5kg; 4d6 HTH damage [2]

15 DEX 15 12- OCV: 5/DCV: 5

24 CON 28 14-

15 BODY 10 12-

21 INT 11 13- PER Roll 13-

14 EGO 8 12- ECV: 5

5 PRE -5 10- PRE Attack: 1d6

6 COM -2 10-

12 PD 8 Total: 12/35 PD (0/23 rPD)

15 ED 10 Total: 15/38 ED (0/23 rED)

4 SPD 15 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12

9 REC 0

48 END 0

39 STUN 1 Total Characteristics Cost: 114

Movement: Running: 8"/[Noncombat]"

Leaping: 4"/[Noncombat]"

Swimming: 2"/[Noncombat]"

 

Cost Powers END

67 Variable Power Pool, 50 base + 17 control cost, (75 Active Points); all slots OIF (-1/2)

0 1) LS (Self-Contained Breathing) (10 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) Real Cost: 7 0

0 2) Teleportation 3", Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (15 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) Real Cost: 10 1

0 3) N-Ray Perception (Sight Group) (10 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) Real Cost: 7 0

0 4) FF (15 PD/15 ED) (30 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) Real Cost: 20 3

0 5) HKA 1d6 (1 1/2d6 w/STR), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (22 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) Real Cost: 15 2

12 Armored Costume: Armor (8 PD/8 ED) (24 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Activation Roll 14- (-1/2) 0

 

Martial Arts: [Martial Art Name]

Maneuver OCV DCV Notes

3 2) Aikido Throw +0 +1 6d6 +v/5, Target Falls

4 3) Boxing Cross +0 +2 8d6 Strike

4 4) Choke -1 +1 3d6 NND

4 5) Escape Hold +0 +0 46 STR vs. Grabs

4 6) Karate Chop -2 +0 HKA 2d6

4 7) Kung Fu Block +2 +2 Block, Abort

4 9) Judo Disarm -1 +1 Disarm; 41 STR to Disarm

Commando Training

8 1) +2 HTH Damage Class(es)

2 8) Weapon Element: Blades, Clubs

 

Perks

10 Follower

4 Vehicles & Bases

 

Skills

8 +1 with All Combat

4 WF: Common Melee Weapons, Small Arms

2 SS: Robotics 11-

3 PS: Electrician 12-

3 Mechanics 13-

3 Inventor 13-

Everyman Skills

0 1) TF: Custom Adder, Small Motorized Ground Vehicles

3 2) Stealth 12-

3 3) Shadowing 13-

0 4) Persuasion 8-

0 5) Paramedics 8-

0 6) Deduction 8-

0 7) Conversation 8-

0 8) Concealment 8-

0 9) Climbing 8-

0 10) Acting 8-

3 Electronics 13-

3 Bugging 13-

3 Combat Piloting 12-

3 Breakfall 12-

1 AK: Military Bases 8-

 

Total Powers & Skills Cost: 172

Total Cost: 286

 

150+ Disadvantages

10 Distinctive Features: Buck Teeth and Braces (Easily Concealed; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

30 Enraged: When appearance is made fun of (Common), go 14-, recover 8-

10 Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x STUN Hits to face (Common)

15 Social Limitation: Secret Identity Frequently (11-), Major

20 Hunted: DEMON 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, Harshly Punish)

10 Social Limitation: Reputation for violence (Frequently), Minor

5 DNPC - Brig. General Andrew Singer: Father 8- (Slightly Less Powerful than the PC; Useful Noncombat Position or Skills; Unaware of character's adventuring career/Secret ID)

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 286

[Chuckg]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

My own character, Starguard, has a Cosmic VPP loosely defined as "powers of an earth-bound archangel".

 

This particular SFX, DM-approved, has allowed me to get away with quite a bit.

 

But even so, the only time I ever composed a power in play at the table, instead of pulling it off a (rather long) pre-approved list of slot builds, I still had to get DM permission before I could use it.

 

(If you're interested -- MegaScale Tunnelling, to open a giant crack in the ground and swallow an entire army of demons and zombies. The DM felt that was appropriately Biblical. But I think I've told this war story before. )

[Chuckg]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

Looking at the file...

 

OK, given the skills and how all the powers are based on Foci, this appears to be a gadgeteer, as you said.

 

Given that the VPP has only "OIF", and not "Only Changes In Lab", it's not the traditional Gadget Pool -- it can be reconfigured in the field, much like Techno's (Thunderbolts) mechanical body, or Scalphunter's (the Marauders, now deceased) modular guns.

 

I notice that the player bought no Power skill, and no adders on the VPP -- which means they can only reconfigure out of combat.

 

OK, if I were the DM, I'd say that there pool is based on "field gadgeteering" SFX, which means it has to be reasonable that the gizmo could be configured out of the (presumably ample, but not infinite) amount of parts and prefab kits they're hauling with them, the gizmo has to be in line with the limits of the campaign tech level (i.e. - if Diesel has absolutely no idea how to build a Dimensional Warp Generator, or hasn't gotten plans from any NPC superscientist who does, then no ED Movement for you, skippy), and the gizmo would be subject to reasonable, 0-point limitations representing the fact that over time, any gadget not built out of Precursor Unobtainium Self-Repairing Metal is going to eventually rust, etc.

 

IOW -- suspended animation for millenia? Only if you find a convenient alien starship to cannibalize.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

67 Variable Power Pool, 50 base + 17 control cost, (75 Active Points); all slots OIF (-1/2)

0 1) LS (Self-Contained Breathing) (10 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) Real Cost: 7 0

0 2) Teleportation 3", Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (15 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) Real Cost: 10 1

0 3) N-Ray Perception (Sight Group) (10 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) Real Cost: 7 0

0 4) FF (15 PD/15 ED) (30 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) Real Cost: 20 3

0 5) HKA 1d6 (1 1/2d6 w/STR), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (22 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) Real Cost: 15 2

 

 

The complete lack of any explanation of how the powers work (ie SFX) makes this of little use in the discussion, to my mind. As chuckg points, out, with no adders or power skill, changes in combat are impossible. With no limitations, changes out of combat are pretty much unrestricted.

 

Coming back to my prior "special powers" discussion, N-Ray vision is an enhanced sense which, as a special power, is allowed in a framework only with GM permission. I'm also uncertain which of the powers listed are carried as a default - they total 59 points, which is 9 more than the VPP can hold.

 

Chuckg's proposed sfx seem to make sense under the circumstances (not the onoy plausible SFX, but certainly plausible sfx). The lack of suitable components to construct a suspended animation chamber and/or lack of any knowledhe of how to build one, seems to be the appropriate limiting factor

[Zed-F]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

For starters, I usually require this sort of VPP character to buy appropriate science/engineering skills for the kinds of devices she wants to be able to build. Otherwise, sorry, you don't know how.

 

For seconds, building devices on the fly is cool if you know in advance player is going to be reasonable about it, and/or if the game is wide open enough to allow for it. Putting in a "must define powers beforehand" -0 lim is alright if you're not sure whether the player will abuse it. However, if the player's shown that she's not willing to be reasonable about it... then it's time to convert to an MP. Don't mess around with half-measures like "must write all powers down before game starts" if the player has already shown they can't handle a VPP without abusing it; take the potential for abuse away entirely.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

Personally, other than the bloodthirstiness of the PCs stated actions I can see no problems with what the character has done.

 

You already have the in game rationale that her powers are magickally based, the fact that she used technology doesn't mean that she does not manipulate it magickally. That said the EMP should have fried her little spiderbot, it was your fault not to enforce that matter.

 

Writting up VPP powers on the fly is not a bad thing if the character is not holding up game play. If she can cobble together a reasonable effect in time for her phase then so be it. Abuse is the AE1 HEX AP x2 Pentrating 1 PIP Killing attack MPAed with about 15 others in a VPP. (Sure you can do it autofire but you might miss!!). Abuse is not: I'll reorient my battle armor into a suspension cocoon. Using the standard decay of Cesium atoms the onboard computer will calculate the exact time to revive me. I expect to spent approximately 10,000 years asleep. Now to prevent the chance I'll be blown up or tampered with I'll shunt the whole thing into subspace by about 1.00 x10-3 angstoms. That should keep the weather calm for the voyage northward in time. BTW I'll slave a few other sarcophagi to my controls so the rest of the team can come too. UBO x4!!!! natch!

 

VPPs are good tools but the GM has to be on board for their use.

 

Hawksmoor

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

My first character was a VPP weilding magic user, with the -1/4 limitation, *mystery*. This has some big plot significance, which we are trying to unravel, but currently it means i can't buy powers that would break the game (like mega scale teleportation to anywere i want).

 

The GM and other players don't mind me taking 5 miniutes to make new powers every session (or new power suites) because it's cosmic and changes size every few sessions.

 

On the other hand, i've run flat into walls with what you can't put in VPPs. So far i've seen two of them that Deisel has.

 

1) Enhanced Senses in a VPP (that's a special power, requiring GM permisson. if she can't play nice, make her play by the rules)

 

2) Life Support. Don't let her put LS in a framework, unless she can damn well justify it. I've run up against this for ages, trying to not eat and drink when we die of dehydration, and so i'm allowed to make ego checks to not eat, but when i fail, it all snaps back.

 

basically, smack her with the big black book of universal rules, and ask her if she wants some more!

[CBikle]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

I agree with the above two posters.

 

Think she should have more sciences though.

[Zed-F]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

Abuse is not: I'll reorient my battle armor into a suspension cocoon. Using the standard decay of Cesium atoms the onboard computer will calculate the exact time to revive me. I expect to spent approximately 10' date='000 years asleep. Now to prevent the chance I'll be blown up or tampered with I'll shunt the whole thing into subspace by about 1.00 x10-3 angstoms. That should keep the weather calm for the voyage northward in time. BTW I'll slave a few other sarcophagi to my controls so the rest of the team can come too. UBO x4!!!! natch! [/quote']

Unfortunately she's not giving any explanation at all, or else the explanation is varying from moment to moment according to what she wants it to be. Thus Starblaze has no way to adjudicate/enforce whether it should really work or not.

VPPs are good tools but the GM has to be on board for their use.

Hawksmoor

That is, the style of game has to be sufficiently wide open that they are viable & acceptable concepts. It sounds like Starblaze's game may not be that wide open, even though he ok'ed the concept at first.

[Mister E]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

10 Distinctive Features: Buck Teeth and Braces (Easily Concealed; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

30 Enraged: When appearance is made fun of (Common), go 14-, recover 8-

10 Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x STUN Hits to face (Common)

This is a joke character. (And BTW... no way in hell is having braces going to cause a Major Reaction in people.) Diesel the Gadgeteer was designed to be a hassle in game.

 

10 Social Limitation: Reputation for violence (Frequently)' date=' Minor[/quote']Not one of your classic "Fantastic Four" Disads...

 

Are all the characters in the game like this? Or just Diesel?

[gojira]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

She created a follower that is essentially a robot spider but when another robot attacked it with an EMP attack she told me that is was a 'mystical spider' and that that wouldn't work on it.

 

I agree with the others in many respects, but I have to question this. Why did you send a robot with an EMP attack to destroy her robot? Was the robot breaking the game, or were you just being mean? This was a planned encounter with EMP weilding robots or did you just dream this up after she aquired her robot?

 

First rule: the players are supposed to win.

 

I think you need to stop GMing for a while, then talk it out with your players. Find out if the problem is you or her. I'm guessing some of both, but if you're creating NPCs just to take away her powers, I think it may be you more than her.

[Enforcer84]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

Personally, I'd sit down (or stand it's up to you ) with the player and tell her that you want to know how and what the VPP is based on. She doens't have gadgeteering so she can't build on the fly, and you as the GM can simply tell her that she simply doesn't have the skills or materials necessary to build the Life Support module if that is the case. As far as the follower, I don't know the situation so I can't help you there.

 

as an aside to gojira, players are not "supposed" to win the idea is to have fun and create a story, there are times when heroes are "supposed" to lose, if only to set up dramatic rematches.

[sinanju]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

I can't believe I forgot about this: always' date=' Always, ALWAYS, make PCs write up their VPPs [b']before[/b] the game is played. The PC should *not* be allowed to create powers during gameplay, even if the player is a HERO math wizard. If in-between adventures they think of something, then you can allow or disallow it.

 

Oh, I totally disagree. Making up new uses for the VPP is the whole point of having a VPP. In my opinion, anyhow; I enjoy working out new wrinkles on the fly. But then, my gaming groups have typically consisted entirely of rules-lawyering munchkins, including the GMs--who are ready, willing and able to stop rules abuse in an instant. (We've occasionally had GMs who weren't willing/able to do that, and it was never pretty. But as a rule, it's worked well.)

 

Heck, I say, let her bury herself and then she's out of the adventure (and no XP to boot).

 

Or just pin her down as to how exactly the VPP works, and what sorts of things she can do. Unless it's a Cosmic VPP, it's going to have limits. If she refuses to go along with that, _then_ you let her bury herself and effectively take her character out of the game....

[Kirby]

Re: VPP Nightmare!

 

Why did you send a robot with an EMP attack to destroy her robot?

That's like asking "why did you have the villain kidnap the DNPC?" It's genre; it's part of the game.