Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

[LadyChaos]

You see them in comics all the time--the guy with the medium STR and some sort of EB or other nonbrick power or lots of skills. Where the average brick is a STR 70, the JOAT might be a 35. Where your normal blaster has 14d6, he might have 9d6. He can hurt the average agent, but can he really take on a supervillian?

 

I love the idea of a super that's "super" in all areas, but how effective is he in gameplay? Can he be effective without buying lots of combat skill levels? I haven't played one (or seen one) myself so thought I'd throw the question out. Maybe some of you long-time GMs/players have used this type of character and can satisfy my curiousity.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

The answer to that is a resounding "It depends."

 

I think the real question is whether or not the player would enjoy playing such a character. Most players want their PCs to have a definite niche, a distinct quality that they bring to the team. Personally, I would be pretty frustrated if I was second or third in every single trade/power, even if it was a wide variety of them.

 

As to mechanics, as long as your 9d6 blast doesn't merely bounce off of everyone, and you don't fall unconscious from every single attack, you'd be fine I think.

[Hermit]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

I have a very small group, so almost always everyone picks their own archetype with very little cross over. This works well for me, but in a larger group, I imagine a JoaT would work fine, IF you found the right sort of player for it. Many of us (myself included) enjoy playing "the best ____" or at least "the best ______ on the team". It seems rarer to find someone who is willing to play what you're mentioning and willing to risk being overshadowed.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

I can't remember ever playing in a Champions campaign that didn't have a JOAT of some sort, although I question whether being only half as good/powerful is really part of the definition of JOAT. Simply being markedly less effective is enough. Flexibility has a utility all its own (In fact, I prefer the term "utility" rather than "jack of All trades.").

 

We have two in our current team roster; Cyberknight and Cloud Dragon. Cyberknight is a powered-armor brick/EB. He's neither as powerful at ranged attacks as our primary EB Thunderbird, nor as tough as our brick Silhouette, but he's probably 80% as good as either in their fields and was the team's leader for years. That is always useful. Similarly, Cloud Dragon is neither as talented an MA as Zl'f, nor as good a teleporter as Sidestep, nor as good at mental defenses as Prodigy, our mentalist. His one real unique forte is stealth, something MidGuard uses relatively seldom. That hasn't kept him from being a very effective character overall, and one who could probably defeat most of our other player characters in one-on-one combat with some regularity.

[Barton]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

At Gen-Con Indy I played in the New Circle game. I played a homage to Batman, who had a VPP that was called "I just happen to have one of those". It allowed me at the CRITICAL time to save the group's bacon. Normally the character had to stay on the sidelines. So YES, a JOAT is great fun, especially if you are not a "combat monkey", or you like to be the answer person.

[Nucleon]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

Jacks-of-all-trades (that is, characters with at least 3 domains of ecpertise)always were Nucleon's favorite characters prior to His knowledge of Hero rules. They make good central heroes.

 

In game, they are well-suited to flamboyant personalities, and as a matter of fact, interaction is often their main schtick.

 

The problem is, the line between effective and mediocre JoATs is quite small. It is Nucleon's opinion that a finely made JoAT must compromise on having a single good aspect of every palette instead of a variety of weak ones in each, if you see what He means.

 

[Kirby]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

I've tried playing the all-around/JoaT character before in non-HERO games and haven't had a problem with it. I'd even be willing to try a sidekick or sidekick-like hero in a game. I was almost able to play a ninja to a samurai, but that didn't go through.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

Well, I would question the utility of a 9d6 EB in general, but I don't doubt a JoaT in general is a useful super.

 

I mean, just to use an example, with a agile flying brick/energy blaster:

 

-He can close and force melee, or open and force a firefight, depending on the respective strengths of his opponent

 

-Brick busting and dodge busting techniques are each reduced in efficacy

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

I agree with 'it depends'.

 

If your team has, for example, a brick, an energy projector, a mentalist, and a martial artist, and at least two of them fly, then someone who can do a little of everything can be a valuable fifth man. However, if a major archetype is missing, and is only filled by the JoaT, then you can't really take that into account tactically.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

I find that a JOAT works best on either a very small team or on an extremly large one. In a small team, he helps cover more then one base. On a large team, he's can be anyone's backup.

 

I like to play highly versatile characters myself, because I hate sitting on my hands unable to help in a given situation. But my characters still tend to shine in at least one area.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

In general, my old Champions campaign saw a fair number of Jack of all Trades characters, because you see them in the comics quite a bit, a we were all genere feinds. If you think about it, the Champions Gadgeteer is a classic example of this archtype, as are many of the types of heros that one sees in solo runs. It does get a bit tricky when you begin mixing up with more focused heros tho... as mentioned above there is a fine line that needs to be walked... too weak and the JoT character comes across as relatively worthless except as the resident agent masher... Too flexible and you wind up with the Batgod syndrome.

A lot of the effectiveness of a character like this will be dependent on how the campaign is set up and run, tho it does help if you build the character to have an ace or two in the hole... something that they can do to in very limited circumstances or with exceedingly limited charges that lets them trot out an unexpected can of whoop a** when the chips are down.

 

My main character for many years was a fairly standard NCM Gadgeteer/Martial Artist/Loads of Skills Jack of all Trades type, and he wound up as the Leader of our hero team, after a semi long run as a solo street level hero. He may not have packed the raw power of any of the other characters, but he could usually manage to save the day when it needed saving.

[Haerandir]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

Having played a JoAT in a recent campaign, I will second (or by now third, possibly fourth) the general attitude of cautious optimism. Like most character types, the well-rounded utility hero has both an upside and a downside.

 

The upside is, naturally, versatility. It's always a bad feeling when the party realizes they don't have the requisite powers or skills to resolve a certain challenge, and not every GM is able or willing to tailor scenarios solely to the party's abilities.

 

The three major pitfalls I noticed while I was playing Renaissance Man include:

 

That armor's too strong for blasters!: As has been pointed out, a 9d6 EB is of questionable value in a campaign where villains are designed to be able to handle 60 to 75 AP attacks routinely. Naturally, you can get around this by specializing in fighting agents, sneaking around and investigating things, using creative combat maneuvers, etc. But you have to know the rules, know the genre and be prepared to accept your role when Dr. Destroyer turns up. It helps if your GM is flexible enough to create opponents tailored for the different members of the team, but sometimes that just means that your cool character concept is creating more work for them. One possible workaround for this issue is to have attacks at (or close to) the campaign standard, but to also have reasons why you won't or can't always use them.

 

Step aside, Amazing Man! I have the perfect power for just such an occasion!: When you have an ability that you don't get to use very often, it's very tempting to use it whenever the opportunity arises. Sometimes, this leads to the utility character butting in on someone else's spotlight time. This is particularly dangerous if you've built your character very efficiently using Multipowers or VPPs to get a wide variety of abilities without sacrificing much overall power. Definitely make a point of giving the other players an opportunity to propose their solutions to the problem before you jump in.

 

Let Mikey do it, he does everything...: I ran into this one from time to time. We'd run into a strange situation that wasn't clearly anyone else's specialty, and everyone would turn to me. After a while, we got to the point where the GM and the other players would just use me as an excuse not to have to deal with 'boring' stuff. "Bah! We could sit here and puzzle this out, but there's bound to be something on Renaissance Man's character sheet that'll handle it. Roll some dice, Jesse. There, you succeed. Now, who wants to order pizza?" This isn't necessarily a problem, unless it happens frequently.

 

Dang, gotta get back to work.

[Hopscotch]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

I once had a player who came up with a great character concept of a hero with multiple personality disorder. When different personalities took over, the character phisically changed and got a different power set. Because Skitzo had four different personalities, that meant four different power sets. Point constrictionsmeant that the brick, the martial artist, the gadgeteer and the telekenetic each were built on a smaller point base than the other characters in the party.

To this day, I love this character concept and construction. Fairly quckly, however, the player got tired of playing second fiddle to everyone else and talked me into having annother, dominant personality emerge. He ceased being a shapeshifter, and settled into the role of primary shooter in the party.

My point is, make sure that the player wants to be a JoAT. Even then, they may get tired of never being the cool kid.

Sadly, at the end of the day, I ended up loving Skitzo more than his player did.

[Kirby]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

I personally don't see a problem with 9d6 attacks. In fact, in the 350 pt campaign I'm running, several PCs have used 9d6 attacks (and lowers) effectively. They have quickly taken out a dozen agents+, as well as the two lower Damage Class PCs defeated Anklyosaur, Bulldozer, and Icicle.

 

A character with 7-9d6 will be ideal against agents, and will be a nice addition to a super fighting another super. In a Dark Champions game I was in, my semi-brick had 40 STR and would tag team with the mentalist during combat. We had the same SPD and we could often take opponents out in the same phase (without "teamwork" bonuses). It depends on how fast your character is also. In a 350 pt game, you wouldn't want a 7-9d6 attacker with a 4 SPD. My character eventually worked up to a 6 SPD and 45 STR and was the 'goto' guy when the team needed help, since I could fly and fast. I might spend one phase flying from teammate A to B, but I was usually a big relief when I showed up. It depends on how willing you are to take that role and how appreciative and how "team player"-ish your buddies are.

[pinecone]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

THe other "I can do everything, and do it well" skill is Find weakness...it helps turn 8-9D6 attacks into a effective attack. Thats my usual solution for a skill monger character.....

[Trebuchet]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

I personally don't see a problem with 9d6 attacks. In fact, in the 350 pt campaign I'm running, several PCs have used 9d6 attacks (and lowers) effectively. They have quickly taken out a dozen agents+, as well as the two lower Damage Class PCs defeated Anklyosaur, Bulldozer, and Icicle.

 

A character with 7-9d6 will be ideal against agents, and will be a nice addition to a super fighting another super. In a Dark Champions game I was in, my semi-brick had 40 STR and would tag team with the mentalist during combat. We had the same SPD and we could often take opponents out in the same phase (without "teamwork" bonuses). It depends on how fast your character is also. In a 350 pt game, you wouldn't want a 7-9d6 attacker with a 4 SPD. My character eventually worked up to a 6 SPD and 45 STR and was the 'goto' guy when the team needed help, since I could fly and fast. I might spend one phase flying from teammate A to B, but I was usually a big relief when I showed up. It depends on how willing you are to take that role and how appreciative and how "team player"-ish your buddies are.

Ask Mentor or Blackjack how effective my PC Zl'f is with a maximum 10d6 attack and SPD 9 (10d6 is a bit higher than your 9d6 example, but everyone else on the team is doing from 12 - 15d6). And, of course, she can munch agents like popcorn...

[Bloodstone]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

Yes, well enough SPD does help compensate for a lack of raw hitting power, especially if you hit a great deal more then you miss and have good team tactics

 

And not to be a stickler or anything, but doesn't Zl'f also have a moderate sized Hand Attack with up to +1/2 worth of Variable Advantages? That's got to bump her damage potential up higher then her 10d6 of martial arts would indicate... or am I remembering wrong?

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

They don't make effective team players. All players should complement the team and that means some players being able to do somethings well and somethings not at all. A jack of all trades steps on everyone's toes skill wise and contributes little overall.

[Vorsch]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

Martian Manhunter

 

The JOAT from hell.

 

Super strong/tough/ fast mentalist shapeshifter, only marginally less competent in his fields than the entire JLA.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

And not to be a stickler or anything' date=' but doesn't Zl'f also have a moderate sized Hand Attack with up to +1/2 worth of Variable Advantages? That's got to bump her damage potential up higher then her 10d6 of martial arts would indicate... or am I remembering wrong?[/quote']You remembered correctly. Zl'f can do a 7d6 HA with +½ Variable Advantage. While it's handy at times (such as against Desolid opponents, or those with Damage Reduction), 7d6 X 1.5 = 10.5 Damage Classes; only marginally better than her straight 10d6. She still uses her martial arts about 95% of the time. For one thing, the HA attacks take 4 END, plus 1 END for her 15 STR and generally she has to use additional END for movement. With a SPD 9 and only 36 END, she runs out of END very quickly if she uses that Advantaged HA often in combat. For groups of agents and mooks she's far more likely to use Sweeps.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

Martian Manhunter

 

The JOAT from hell.

 

Super strong/tough/ fast mentalist shapeshifter, only marginally less competent in his fields than the entire JLA.

 

Then again, the JLA is not exactly a well balanced team. I mean, three flying bricks, four speedsters??

[TheTemplar]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

...and a Batgod in a pear tree!

 

 

No, really, our PC group, The Defenders have a JoaT Bats homage that works out really well. He's our main detective, but he also has the ability to help the gadgeteer w/ tech/sci stuff, the medic w/ paramedics stuff, and given all the wierd mystical stuff we've encountered lately, he might be doing some paranormal research too.

 

I was going to suggest Find Weakness for a few martial maneuvers as the great equalizer for the JoaT char, but someone beat me to it, so I'll just second it.

 

We have (well.. had, before our GM moved and the campaign fell into my hands):

1 Flying brick, 1 speedster Flash homage (now NPC), 1 flying EP, 1 gadgeteer, 1 metamorph/ size alterer, 1 mega-mystic, and 1 skill monster/MA/ JoaT. In that mix, the JoaT fit in perfectly.

[Mike W]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

I think a Jack of All Trades type can be very effective if played correctly. You can handle so many more situations; in fact, if it's well built, a JOAT will almost never be out of his element. They are great agent killers, can assist/support almost anyone, and can hurt/affect almost any character on the field regardless of defenses because they have so many tricks up their sleeve. You just have to make sure the Jack of All Trades has enough power in his attacks/powers, even if they are on the low end.

[Markdoc]

Re: Are Jacks of all Trade Effective PCs?

 

I like playing JoAT (or perhaps Jack of quite a few trades: JoQFT?), but it only really works well if the player is prepared to accept a secondary role in combat, which is an important part of the game - and if the character is well designed. It helps to have a schtick of your own, even if it not a "powerful" one.

 

In Mike Surbrook's Kazei5 game it was Kenji, a powered armour guy. Decent martial arts, decent defences, chameleon camoflage and computer/ knowledge skills. He was essentially an infiltrator with enough combat skills to survive until the cavalry arrived. His "schtick" was battlefield ECM: messing with the opponent's communications and getting the team inside a secured target building.

 

In Mike's Silent Mobius game, Takahashi Jones - martial artist/sorceror/Girl Magnet. Not as tough, or as fast as the rest of the team and with much smaller attacks, but a competent, if low-powered combatant, made flexible by having a small variety of spells. His schtick was "occult knowledge and connections" - also having a cooler hairdo than anyone else on the team.

 

There are other examples, but you probably get the idea.

 

cheers, Mark